Buffalo WorkBench

 

by buffalo

 

original page on Old RMweb

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:27 pm

 

(NOTE: I've edited this post to remove the index section as, hopefully, we can do that a bit better using the new blog interface).

 

After a few months of membership the excuse to start my own workbench thread has finally arrived. Today I received a small box containing an example of the long-awaited revival of the Alan Gibson kit range. You may be able to guess what it is from the title and my screen name I'll start describing the kit and the build in the next post.

 

Expect to see various GWR items dated around 1900-1905 and 1930-1940 all of which will be EM, and some S&DJR items of similar dates, all of which will be P4. The GWR layout is under way but, so far, my only P4 track is a single GWR 44' 6" panel -- useful for standing the rolling road on, but of precious little use on the S&D.

 

Like many others, the number of projects on, or near, my workbench grows much more rapidly than the completed projects on the layout(s). My excuse is that I still need to finish the tracklaying before it is worth having anything completely ready for running

 

Don't expect anything too special but, with luck and your input, my modelling skills may improve over time.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:50 pm

 

So, here we go! The Gibson kit is, of course, a Buffalo or 1076 Saddle tank. This has long been one of my favourite GWR engines, and so I was very disappointed when, on my return to modelling after a twenty year layoff, I learned that Alan Gibson was retiring and the kits would no longer be available. So, a big thankyou to the new proprietors for starting the process of reintroducing the kits and delivering my Buffalo today

 

I'm sure many of you will have built one of these in the past, but there appears to be no mention of this kit in the current incarnation of RMweb, so hopefully this will be of interest to a wider audience. So, what's in the kit? The image below shows the box, four etches and the larger w-m castings. These are accompanied by many separately bagged and numbered components in w-m and brass and a host of standard Gibson products including wheels, hornblocks, buffers, etc. Apparently the kit contains everying except a Mashima motor.

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:45 am

 

First Impressions

About thirty years ago I tackled a white metal kit with mixed results, but my recent experience of loco kits has been limited to a couple of examples of High Level chassis and a Martin Finney Dean Goods. Perhaps I've been spoiled, but this is an entirely different kettle of fish. No tabs and slots and few aids to alignment so it is up to the builder to ensure that everying is in the right place. The instructions remind me more of old Airfix plastic kits -- fairly brief and full of statements like 'attach part 25 to part 33'. Many parts are not named, leaving you to search the diagram for the part number without a clue where to start.

 

The nickel-silver etches are 0.45mm sheet whereas the brass are 0.30mm. The half-etched tabs (insert technical term here) that attach the parts to the rest of the etched sheet are quite thick in both metals, almost to the point of needing a piercing saw rather than a sharp blade to cut them. So far, I've just about managed with a Stanley knife, but care is needed to avoid distortion. That said, the etches appear to be of good quality and need only minimal work to clean up any etching cusps.

 

Outside frames mean a large number of rivets to deal with before any construction can begin. I have a rivetting tool that I don't get on with, so my normal approach is to use an old scriber which I insert in the half-etched hole and rotate in about a 4 inch circle (at the top end of the scriber). Three revolutions with mild pressure is enough for the rivets in the brass footplate, but the nickel-silver buffer beams and outside frames need considerably more effort. Also, for some reason, the half etched holes in the back of the buffer beams are much larger than those anywhere else. They are about 1mm diameter which makes it rather difficult to ensure that each rivet is actually centred in the hole. So far, I've done the rivets in the buffer beams and in the footplate, but the frames will have to wait until tomorrow.

 

So, in some ways, a rather primitive kit, but I still think i am going to enjoy building it. There is also a reasonable amount of scope for adding extra detailing and making the result all the more personal.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by nzovu on Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:30 am

 

Looking forward to seeing this develop Nick, the Buffalos are one of my favourite locos too.

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Knottyjohn on Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:36 am

 

Yes, to add to this I'm looking foward to seeing how this loco progresses. I like this class of engine, and I'm glad to hear that some of the kits from the old Gibson range are being brought back on to the market by the new owners of the business.

 

I wonder what else they might have in mind to release

 

I've just recently finished a Gibson kit for the GCR Pom Pom that I bought from AG before he sold the business, not a bad kit but I did have a few moments with the fit of the firebox, boiler and smokebox. Still, not a bad kit at all and I'm pleased with the results.

 

So, look foward to seeing more of this one. John

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:11 am

 

Currently, the Buffalo and 850 saddles (not panniers), and the S&DJR 7F and GER Y14/LNER J15 look to be imminent, see the 'kits' page at http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/.

 

From reports I've read/heard of other Gibson kits, that sounds about right. I don't expect building this one will be an entirely smooth process, but it should be fairly straightforward to make something presentable out of it.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Knottyjohn on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:09 pm

 

That's interesting, thanks for pointing me towards that page, I'd not realised that the new Gibsons (if I might use that term) had progressed so far on looking into kit re-release. I've a kit for a SDJR 2-8-0 in stock to build since Noak were a lad and I can see the Pom Pom and GER 0-6-0 look popular as well.

 

I might be tempted by a 633 Class 0-6-0 always had a soft spot for those engines, hmm have to give this some more thought. John

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Mal on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:23 pm

 

I don't know if you are aware but a number of kits in the AG range are based on the old Premier range of kits the Buffalo being one of them. Premier kits dated from the early eighties and were white metal with an etched chassis. AG revamped the Premier range by replacing a large number of the white metal parts with etched brass while keeping the castings for the boilers,domes etc. From my experiance having built four of the original Premier kits they build into excellent models . Just before AG closed I obtained a set of etchings from his GW 850, which I intend to use to update an old Premier 850.

Best of luck with the build I am sure you will end up with a great model.

 

Malcolm

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:47 pm

 

I'm just a little bit jealous there, John. I've been dithering about putting my name down for one of the new ones. I'd really like one for my, as yet imaginary, S&D P4 layout but there are just too many other things in my build queue Still, I know there are others here on RMweb who are keenly awaiting delivery of one of these, so maybe someone will soon be showing us how it goes together

Thanks for clarifying this, Malcolm. There are some indications of earlier generations of the kit in the drawings with the instructions. For example, the buffer beams appear to have originally been w-m castings as the drawing shows what are either lugs on the back to aid alignment of the outer frames, or a representation of the angle bracket between beam and frame. In the etched components, there is little to aid alignment of these parts.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Kenton on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:57 pm

 

Good to see this kit back in production. I think I'll watch how the build goes then then it may be time to flex a card.

I like the AG kits as they were though wonder if some modifications / improvements could have been made.

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:35 pm

 

Some progress over the weekend. The first task was forming the rivets on the footplate, outer frames and buffer beams. There are about 350 of these in total (just an estimate, I didn't count them all ) I also added a few to the lower steps as these are very noticeable on all the photos I have seen - incidentally, I'm using Jim Russell's 'Pictorial History of Great Western Engines', vol 1 as my main visual source, and the RCTS 'Locomotives of the Great Western Railway', part 5 for the technical history. Whilst studying the photos, I noticed several other details not present in the kit which I will attempt to add as I go on. After the step rivets, I also noticed that the brake cross shaft appears to pivot in bushes just above the lower steps, and there is a small access hole just in front of the bushes. I'll attempt to add both later, although it might have been easier to do it before attaching the frames to the footplate. A related detail is the large bolt or nut heads on the outside frames for each of the brake hanger pivots. Again, I'll try to add these later. A further detail is the shape of the front buffer beam. This is deeper below the buffers and shallower between them. I filed an approximation of this shape into the kit buffer beam before soldering it to the footplate and frames. There was enough room to do this because, despite being labelled with the same part number, one of beams in the kit is a little deeper than the other and so, presumably, is intended for the front.

 

When I had finished the rivets, the frames had taken on a curve around both the vertical and horizontal axes which took some time to correct. More worrying was the fact that the top surface of the frames had acquired a banana shape along the edge that joins to the footplate, with the centre about 0.5mm below the ends. Not large, but enough to make a visible distortion in the footplate if not corrected. I'm not sure why this happened and hadn't noticed whether it was there before I started rivetting. However, there is a similar distortion in the inner frames but, again, I cannot be certain that this was present before I cut out the spaces for the hornguides. I don't know enough about stresses in sheet metal or the effects of the etching process to speculate further on this. If others can throw any light on this, it may be of interest to know that each frame is only attached to the sheet by two half-etched tabs, one at each end, with no intermediate support.

 

Anyway, after some gentle pursuasion and a little filing, the outer frames were ready to be attached to the footplate, together with the buffer beams. There are half-etched lines along the underside of the footplate to aid alignment, and these proved very useful in getting the position of the frames correct. Buffer beams and steps were then added, followed by the strengthening pieces and retaining nuts that will be used to attach the chassis.

 

 

The photo shows the footplate attached to the outer frames and buffer beams together with the inner frames spacers and rods which have been cut out and prepared for the initial construction of the chassis. The kit instructions talk about aligning everything by eye, but I will be using some homemade alignment jigs of the conventional type -- silver steel extended axles with the ends turned down to fit the holes in the rods, springs from an old retractable ballpoint pen and clamps made from chocolate box electrical connector innards.

 

When I ordered the kit, I asked for a version with all axles sprung. At the time, I didn't think what this meant in terms of the kit, only what I intended to. As a result, I was supplied with a set of six Gibson sprung hornblocks which are a type that I've always thought are a bit fiddly and over-complicated. I already have some but have never used them. Recently, I've come to like the High Level hornblocks, so will probably order a set of these to use instead of the Gibsons. If I take that route, I might have a go at CSBs.

 

Another note on kit contents. The instructions say "THE ONLY ITEM NEEDED TO COMPLETE IS A MASHIMA 1220 MOTOR" but later, in the list of parts, the word "Gearbox" is crossed out. At least this removes one decision. I have a High Level Load Hauler Compact+ waiting to be used in a Johnson 1P but, if it is a good fit, I will use it here and order another for the 1P. If not, I'll have to see which other High Level box will suit.

 

By the way, one other item referred to in the instructions but no longer supplied (at least I haven't found it) is a pin-point axle to be used by those without other means of forming rivets

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by JackBlack on Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:52 pm

 

This is looking very nice, I'm very interested to see how it turns out especially the white metal parts. A Buffalo would fit very nicely on my layout.

 

Cheers, Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Bertiedog on Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:46 pm

 

The slight distortion of the side frames is "relief" of the stresses in the metal sheet by the riveting, even a light amount with pre etched holes will set off a bend in the stock sheet. The rivtetting can also add stress, again a bend results.

 

Just bend back, with fingers, or in soft jaws, on a vice to straighten them up, test against a steel rule or glass plate. Once finished riveting, if it's really bad, you could anneal the sideframe, put the parts in a steel tray, fill with sand and lay the parts on top, and heat over a gas ring, the sand evens out the heat, let it cool off and then bend. in theory you could then re-anneal again, but life is too short to bother!

 

I notice that you say they advise lining up by eye....not good enough.. make a quick wooden jig etc, and use rulers and straights to check everything as you go along.

 

Which of the Gibson boxes did you get, they do two, an etched one and a cast brass version. The etched one is fiddly, but works well.

Stephen.

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:13 pm

 

Yes, I'll be very interested to see how the w-m parts fit together. I have only ever built (translate as made a pigs ear of) one w-m loco kit and that was 45 years ago Though I have had reasonable success with various wagon kits in the last couple of years since I took up modelling again. If the fit matches my initial impressions of the good quality castings in this kit, it should go together quite well...we'll see...

 

As you know, the kit is a hybrid brass and w-m with n-s chassis and outer frames. I was pleased to find that the cab is in brass because the sheeting thickness is very visible on a w-m cab. There is also a choice of open and closed cab varieties. Perhaps surprisingly, the entire bunker is in w-m. At least this avoids any problems with forming the flares at the top of the bunker if it were made of brass. This may prove attractive to novice builders, or those that have only built w-m kits before. However, I must say that, though initially concerned about how it might turn out, my first attempt at a flared tender (a Finney 3500 gallon GWR kit) went remarkably well and the task is much less difficult than it seems.

 

Thanks, Stephen, I had assumed it was something to do with stress relief, but don't have the background to be confident about its causes and effects. I was prepared for the bending in the plane of the sheet, i.e. the vertical and horizontal (lengthwise) axes, but was surprised by the bend around the third axis which left the top edge curved wrt the plane of the footplate. I was less surprised by the inner frames bending in this way because of the need to cut out the slots for the hornguides thus, it appears, upsetting the balance of stresses between the upper and lower parts of the frames.

 

Fortunately, correcting these curves was fairly straightforward -- a combination of fingers, soft-nosed vice and a rolling bar, protecting the rivets with a layer or two of paper -- so I didn't need to resort to annealing. Nevertheless, I'll remember your advice should I encounter less tractable bending elsewhere.

 

Crossed wires here, Stephen. The gearbox is not supplied with the kit, although the instructions suggest that it used to be. This isn't a worry to me as I intend to use a High Level gearbox. In fact, an order for this and a set of hornblocks is, hopefully, wending its way northwards as I write.

 

Tonight, I've added some of the minor detail I mentioned earlier. The brake pivot end bolts were represented by some 0.8mm A/F bolts from Scale Hardware. It might have been cheaper to use their imitation (non-threaded) bolts, but I only have the threaded variety. An expensive solution, but I didn't fancy trying to file six hex heads at that size. I've also drilled the holes for the brake cross shaft and inspection hole in the steps. I'll need to produce some little end plates to cover the shaft ends, then I hope to spring the shaft in between the steps so that it can be removed with the rest of the brake gear when the chassis is removed.

 

Finally for today, the chassis (inner) frames have been tack soldered to their spacers to assess overall fit and alignment. The spacers have tabs that fit rather loosely into slots in the frames. These are good for rough alignment but no more. The instructions say that the downward projecting part of these L-shaped spaces should go towards the ends of the frames. This is fine at the front where this part of the spacer is about 7mm behind the buffer beam and so not easily seen from the front. However, at the back, this part of the spacer would be less than 2mm behind the buffer beam where it would be clearly visible and might not leave much room for fitting couplings. For now, I've chosen to reverse this spacer as I can find nothing that it might interfere with.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by yachtie on Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:55 pm

 

Hi Nick - I'm really delighted to have found this thread as I took delivery of two of these kits on Saturday morning!

 

I was planning to take them up to Phil Atkinson's Chassis Building Weekend this coming Friday so I could use his MasterChassis to align everything - but the thought of getting all those rivets done beforehand has persuaded me to take an 850 saddle kit that has been grinning at me from my shelf for a year or so! So, I'll wait a while and see how you get on with yours!

 

I have yet to select gearboxes so await your build with even greater interest ......

 

Nick (yes, another one!)

 

Edit: It would be nice to see some photos of the extra detail you describe in the post directly above this one! I'm still very much a beginner so need every hint I can get.....

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Bertiedog on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:02 am

 

Actually I was not referring to the gearboxes, but the axle boxes, as there are two types that Gibson do. I presume the kits is inner framed only as far as working is concerned, the outer being cosmetic?

Stephen.

__________________________________________

Comment posted by wagonman on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:23 am

 

Hi Nick

 

Another one of this batch landed on my door-mat the other day, so I'm another who will be watching your progress with keen interest. I wonder who the other 8 lucky owners are?

 

Richard

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:52 am

 

Yes, I'll try to post some more photos tomorrow when I can take advantage of some daylight. I'm really only a beginner, too. Apart from some buildings and track, the list at the top of this thread covers pretty much my entire experience since I took up modelling again a couple of years ago. I too need every hint I can get, but I find RMweb is just the right place for that.

 

Crossed wires, indeed In which case, I guess these are the etched type. A strip of etched brass is bent around three sides of a square slotted brass bearing to form the fixed part of the horn guide. Brass wire fits between the bearing slots and a half-etched line in this strip to form the guides. At the top, a steel nut without flats (like their crankpin nuts) is soldered to the brass and a 1mm or 14BA screw is inserted to retain a spring and act as a limit stop. If this isn't clear enough, I'll try to remember to include them in a photo later in the week. Yes, the bearings are in the inner frames and the outer ones are cosmetic.

 

We're obviously a select, but growing band I'm beginning to wonder whether this will tell us how big a slice of the market the RMweb membership is. From the numbers who mentioned signing up for an S&D 7F kit in an earlier thread (probably one of CK's?) I think we may be a significant proportion

 

Nick

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:16 pm

 

You were joking, of course Your Wheal Holly work, buildings especially, were one of those threads that helped turn me from a lurker to a member -- really inspirational.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:58 pm

 

As promised, some photos of work so far. First, the addiional detail on the cab steps, rivets, inspection/access hole and brake cross shaft bush (at least, that's what I believe it to be ) The access hole was drilled 0.7mm, though I think it maybe should be a bit larger. The plate is an oval wagon maker's or registration plate from a Mainly Trains etch. A pair of these, one for each side, were soldered face down to an offcut of brass sheet, then drilled 1mm for the shaft and 0.3mm to take a couple of Scale Hardware rivets to represent the mounting bolts. They were then removed from the temporary backing and soldered into place over a section of 1mm od tube passed through the hole. I use 100 degree solder and a temperature controlled iron here so that I could hold the iron in place while adjusting the position without disturbing the steps. I could probably have used 147 degree or similar as the steps were attached with 179 solder cream. Once aligned, I drilled through the 0.3mm holes and added the rivets before soldering rivets and tube in place from behind. Finally, the rivets and tube were trimmed off at the back of the steps.

When assembled, the intention is that a cross shaft should spring into the back of these bushes. Together, they seem to me to give a reasonable approximation to the prototype:

 

 

I've also started adding the w-m cast spring anchors. This is more tricky than I expected as you need to hold and solder on the inside of the frame but can only really check the alignment from the outside. This meant frequently removing the frames from the clamp I was using to hold them, then turning them over to find the anchors pointing in ever direction but the required one. As you can see, some of them still need a bit of tweaking. 100degree solder again.

 

Next in the photos, but actually the first of these details to be added were the heads of the brake pivot bolts. These show clearly on early photographs of the saddle tanks, though by the time that rebuilds as panniers started, the heads had been covered by what looks like a locking plate to stop the bolts turning. As mentioned before, these are Scale Hardware bolts, 0.5mm thread, 0.8mm A/F, soldered into 0.5mm holes using 179 degree solder cream.

 

 

Lastly for today, the inner frames have been straightened and just tacked together then placed in position to show the way in which the rear spacer is reversed to allow space for couplings and other buffer beam paraphenalia.

 

 

Next, finish the details on the other side of the outer frames and assemble the coupling rods, Hopefully the new hornblocks will have arrived by then and I'll be able to get on with the chassis.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Western Star on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:05 pm

 

Not being familiar with the finer points of GWR engineering in Victorian era... by the time that Churchward and Collet got to design their beasts the brake hangers were often hung on a plain pin... with a plate over the head of the brake hanger pin to prevent that pin from coming out of the braker hanger bracket. Said retaining plate being secured by two hex-headed bolts, each with a grover washer.

 

regards, Graham Beare

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:24 pm

 

Thanks for that, Graham. What I described as locking plates on the later pannier rebuilds do, indeed, look like they could be the retaining plates you describe.

 

Nick

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Bertiedog on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:35 pm

 

Nick,

What has been your experience in supply from Scale Hardware, I know them well as far as quality goes, their hardware comes in several US made kits that I have made, but I wondered about the cost of postage., and your rating in relation to cost overall, as cost is important to me.

 

There seem to be few specialist suppliers of really small bolts in the UK now, most mainly citing lack of the materials to produce the smaller sizes, no sub 2mm hex brass for instance. This stops hex heads or nuts at 14BA, although some suppliers list 16BA at the moment.

 

I think the .5 mm x .8mm hex head from Scale Hardware compare to between 18BA to 20BA, but these days most charts stop at 16BA if you are lucky, not the 26BA once made.

 

I have succeeded in making the smallest rivets that they make, but the threaded bolts would need dies, and Scale hardware do not market them, suggesting to me that they cut the threads in a die box on a lathe, or a specialist threading lathe. I see that they market the very small taps though, quite competitively priced Swiss sourced ones.

 

Stephen.

__________________________________________

Comment posted by yachtie on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:39 pm

 

Nick - thanks for the photos of the extra detail. This is looking really good!

 

It was great to hear a beginner to the 'sport' can inspire a lurker to come out! In turn, your work is going to inspire me to attempt greater accuracy when I eventually make a start.....

 

Mine remain firmly in the box for the time being but it was nice to hear that Wagonman has joined the Buffalo club too.... your comment on my first attempts at kit-bashing is still in the forefront of my mind as I have finally started on my pile of 31 Diagram O13s so that the Buffalos will have something to shunt when finally started! Every brake is now doubly checked!

 

Nick, are you modelling a specific Buffalo or a 'generic' version?

__________________________________________

 

??? posted on Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:24 am

 

I bought most of my stock last year while the exchange rate was more favourable than it has been in recent months. They are quite expensive, but even the few suppliers of 16BA in this country also seem quite expensive to me. As to postage and delivery, they really score here. I've just found an invoice from last December where they charged $3 on a $50 order and it arrived in about three days.

 

Somewhere, I should have some old charts that belonged to my father. His engineering was a little heavier, but I'm sure I remember seeing the spec of the a wide range of BA sizes amongst them. Unfortunately, I've no idea where they are.

 

Yes, I saw your rivet picture -- most impressive.

 

For those who haven't seen these tiny parts, here's a not too sharp picture:

 

 

Nick

__________________________________________