Wire in tube point rodding

[bertiedog]

Just a few thoughts on Point motor drives in general.......

 

It has been mentioned again in connection with Tortoise point motors about the added complexity, and cost, of remote operation via wire in tube systems, to allow the point motor to be moved to a more convenient position. This applies to all types and makes of point motor, not just Tortoise.

 

Now, first, I am fully aware that Mercontrol exists, a very well proven sound system of both Copper and PTFE tube, with a steel wire to operate points. They market all the cranks and additions for the system as well, suiting both manual operation via levers, or to connect to any point motor, or electric switching.

 

Indeed, I made components for this system many years ago at Hamblings, but Gem supply the lot these days.

 

I am not selling, promoting, or knocking the items, but one complaint brought up about wire in tube generally is cost, and Yes, it is a bit more expensive, especially if the copper tube is used.

 

But you have to pay for a system when you cannot make it yourself, and relative to say DCC, the costs is very low.

 

However, there are much lower cost alternatives, you can just buy PVC tube and steel piano wire, you can buy aircraft control "wire in tube" versions, you can use, as I did, a series of old Bic pen tubes, cleaned of ink, with steel wire, or you can use thicker wire run through eyelets, commercial or home made from brass wire, very, very, low tech and very low cost. Wire through eyelets cost pennies not pounds!!! and works exactly the same.

 

Use a bit of imagination when these bits of advice are offered, there are lots of alternatives, with home made versions, and your own designs, that may be as good or better than offered by the trade. You will save a lot of cash, but the commercial ones are there as well, and offer complete answers as well.

 

Don't get into the "open the box, and use" way of modelling, you can if you want, but it is going to cost a lot more. We are not all able to afford the expensive route, have a hard look at alternative ways and approaches, it saves a fortune.

 

Stephen.

 

 

[Kenton]

Just to note I was not knocking wire in tube or any other system of operation for REMOTE operation. But I stand by the fact that any additional mechanism added to the Tortoise (or any other point) is bound to be more complicated and bound to add more cost to the basic item. If the problem of not having sufficient depth under the board to mount the Tortoise vertically then the solution of mounting it on its side is simple and relies on no other mechanism.

When the decision has already been made to use Tortoise I see little value in suggesting alternative point motors.

 

But for a general how to control points remotely - especially for manual point control I'm in full agreement.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I very much want to operate my points and ultimately signals too by manual control. To me there's something rather satisfying about pulling mechanical levers, so I would like to learn more about this control method.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll be driving my trains via DCC, but I'd rather operate the infrastructure by traditional methods. Notwithstanding the fact that it's going to be cheaper - I will have more than enough on my plate chipping my unsensibly large fleet of locos!

 

Dave.

[smudgeloco]

Don't forget the plastic covered wound wire curtain hanger. Do they still make that stuff? Ideal for threading your piano wire through.

I also once used a system that used a well made actuator, fixed under the point/baseboard. A set of levers in banks of five, all connected with string, using a sliding tensioner. This was to date, the very best remote system I ever used. Can't find them anywhere now!

[bertiedog]

Don't forget the plastic covered wound wire curtain hanger. Do they still make that stuff? Ideal for threading your piano wire through.

I also once used a system that used a well made actuator, fixed under the point/baseboard. A set of levers in banks of five, all connected with string, using a sliding tensioner. This was to date, the very best remote system I ever used. Can't find them anywhere now!

 

The curtain hanger is a good idea, not too costly either, it is still widely made for net curtains. Gem do the levers in the Mercontrol system, but of course you can make up you own.

 

 

String tension can work well for signals, the line can be fishing line, over a pulley under the signal, and a weight, with a wire up though the board to activate the signal attached to the weight.

 

Don't forget that the tube only really needs to be used on corners, straight runs can run through dolls house sized brass eyelets, and back into tube to turn corners. If you can't find small eyelets, make them from brass wire, pre-drill the holes in the baseboard, and superglue them in......easy and dirt cheap!!!

 

Stephen.

[hayfield]

Don't forget the plastic covered wound wire curtain hanger. Do they still make that stuff? Ideal for threading your piano wire through.

I also once used a system that used a well made actuator, fixed under the point/baseboard. A set of levers in banks of five, all connected with string, using a sliding tensioner. This was to date, the very best remote system I ever used. Can't find them anywhere now!

 

I sold a set (no help to you) on Ebay over 2 a years ago, I think it was made by a company called J & M, metal lever frame with metal actuators connected with string through screw eyelets to change direction. This might jog someone's memory who may have one lurking in a corner.

 

Wire in the tube can be much cheaper than point motors, a common sight with hand built track was to use those cheap double throw double pole switches, have a hole drilled through the plastic lever/knob, it was used not only to throw the switch but to change the polarity at the same time

[Allegheny1600]

I very much want to operate my points and ultimately signals too by manual control. To me there's something rather satisfying about pulling mechanical levers, so I would like to learn more about this control method.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll be driving my trains via DCC, but I'd rather operate the infrastructure by traditional methods. Notwithstanding the fact that it's going to be cheaper - I will have more than enough on my plate chipping my unsensibly large fleet of locos!

 

Dave.

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Dave!

At Scalefour North, earlier today(Sunday!), i was playing with a 5 lever frame marketed by the Scalefour society itself - it was simply GORGEOUS!!!!!

It even had built in microswitches for polarity changing (or motor power) but, for me the ultimate is to actually pull the points & signals by hand!

Anyway, my suggestion for WiT is bicycle gear change wire and cables - very strong, robust and easily bendable.

 

As Bertiedog says: "Don't forget that the tube only really needs to be used on corners, straight runs can run through dolls house sized brass eyelets, and back into tube to turn corners. If you can't find small eyelets, make them from brass wire, pre-drill the holes in the baseboard, and superglue them in......easy and dirt cheap!!!"

 

This is exactly how bicycle gear change cables tend to work nowdays, no need for completely encased cable runs anymore AND it allows you to lubricate the cable at the bends easily!

TTFN,

John E.

[Michael Delamar]

for manual operation, a simple stiff wire with a bent spring loop in it under the baseboard, held with those white phone cable pins works surprisingly well. attach a chock block on the end that sticks out the baseboard for something to hold onto

 

cheap and simple

 

Mike

[bertiedog]

for manual operation, a simple stiff wire with a bent spring loop in it under the baseboard, held with those white phone cable pins works surprisingly well. attach a chock block on the end that sticks out the baseboard for something to hold onto

 

cheap and simple

 

Mike

 

Good idea about the electrical cable pins, boxes of those upstairs! could be an open run or for securing the tubes down.

 

[beeman]

The curtain hanger is a good idea, not too costly either, it is still widely made for net curtains. Gem do the levers in the Mercontrol system, but of course you can make up you own.

 

 

String tension can work well for signals, the line can be fishing line, over a pulley under the signal, and a weight, with a wire up though the board to activate the signal attached to the weight.

 

Don't forget that the tube only really needs to be used on corners, straight runs can run through dolls house sized brass eyelets, and back into tube to turn corners. If you can't find small eyelets, make them from brass wire, pre-drill the holes in the baseboard, and superglue them in......easy and dirt cheap!!!

 

Stephen.

I found problems with friction using tube on bends, I have on my current layout having taken a sabatical for some 20 odd years, used simple latching levers fitted to a mimic track layout, which 'pull' a MIG welding wire, .6mm dia. initially all of the wires, some 30 odd pass over a chrome plated tube set horizontally above the panel [ approx angle of 135] the wire then passes either using bellcranks for sharp angles or I use 'bollards' made out of a penny washers a piece of plastic 15mm plumbing tubeing, this has a low drag on the wire, and the two items screwed to the u/s of the base board. On reaching the point to be operated I use various actuators to operate the point with the usual method of a piano wire up thro the baseboard, 22mm thick flooring in my case. and ultimately a spring on the end or the wire or actuator, reversal can be achieved to give push or pull depending on the point position and access to it. some of my points have a wire 'run' of approaching 2.5 metres. Occasionally they need to be adjusted after initial installation but then they seem ok. must admit its a bit of a nightmare underneath though having so many, but it works, A reel of MIG welding wire will set you back around £5.oo for more wire than you will need, a lot cheaper than piano wire, and tough. Good Luck Beeman.

[R A Watson]

One good item I have found is the control rod systems aero modellers use for controlling rudders and wing flaps etc.

 

Our local shop stocks a product called Golden Rod, but I expect others are available, it comes in 1 metre lengths and a large variety of diamaters for about £3.00 a go, for this you get a flexible outer tube and inner rod both in nylon and virtually friction free. These are accompanied by a selection of end fittings to be used as required.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Wally

[Etched Pixels]

For microlayouts bits of old metal normally have the reach - scrap rail is quite adequate for example.

[bertiedog]

I have used bicycle spokes through eyelets in years gone by.........the aircraft control rods were mentioned before, they are excellent, but pricey.

 

Stephen

[smudgeloco]

I have used wire coat hangers on two of my layouts, and with great success. Using the same principle as the bike spoke method.

[Will Vale]

Another source of cheap short tubes (along the lines of the Bic pen suggestion) is used cotton buds. Snip off the ends and keep the middle bit - I've done this on a couple of layouts where I wanted to bury a straight run of wire on the surface and not have it fouled by PVA when I added scenery.

[Hesperus]

Another vote here for mig wire ( I use 0.8mm as its already in the shed for the welder) . I usually run it through either net curtain wire or if this is unsuitable then I use mains 13A cable with the copper wire pulled out. As well as points this operates a small sector plate at the end of a runaround loop and a wagon turntable.

I need to sort out something as a handle though as knots of wire ain't too comfy to use

 

Rich

[esca]

You can use an hydraulic method.

Get hold of some used plastic syringes from a diabetic or your friendly neighbourhood vet.

Buy plastic tubing from a hardware store to fit the nozzles of the syringes and glue in place.

Fill the system with water. Now, when you push in one syringe, the other will move out.

[Sir Madog]

I am using bowden cables from R/C air planes. They come in lenghts of 3` and cost about 50p each. I connect the bowden cable to a small triangular sector plate underneath the point. That plates adds another 50p to the bill. Works fine with me.

[shortliner]

On the Harlem Station (2010) layout, I'm using Caboose Industries ground throws with a short piece of metal guitar string, threaded through a bit of insulation from multi-strand wire - works fine. I usually use bicycle spokes threaded end out, with a wooden bead epoxied to the nipple and screwed to the end. The spoke is run through choc-blok connectors glued to the underside of the baseboard and the tension can be adjusted using the screws - the brass bit with screws can be removed from its plastic, and used to operate microswitches for point/frog polarity as the rod moves.

[thirty2a]

Just been reading these post's on point rodding and was wondering if it is possible to have surface mounted realistic operating point rodding? i'm looking into the possiblity of a BR steam layout based in the North East and remeber seeing Halifax King Cross which is fully signalled as Recall but not sure whether the point rodding was cosmetic.

I like the idea of using levers for the signals and points and as this will be a small layout and having always neglected the signalling in the past might make an interesting project.

[beeman]

Could not agree more,Why use piano wire, which is in fact spring steel wire ,when MIG welding wire is perhaps a bit more flexible , very strong, copper coated and I would think cheaper. Around £5.00 for a reel from Screwfix/Toolstation. couple it with items to over the £10.00 value, and free delivery from Toolstation. thought I would add a few pics of my mimic/control board. This has developed to a bit of a b***** maze, the C/B is angled at around 135', the wires work on a 'pull and latch' basis with the home made latching levers. The wire pass over a chromed tube to cater for the angular difference. Initially tried one and ok, so carried on.The wire is guided around 'bollards', made from penny washers and a piece of 15mm plastic barrier plumbing pipe,and bellcranks where reqd. The point wire ends having a suitable actuator and spring on the end of the wire. Some of the points have an almost 2 m. run of wire with bollards and bellcranks. There are 33 wire operated out of a total of 60+. Economics were the deciding factor to use wire in the first instance.there were a few needing adjustment occasionally but generally OK even taking temperature variations into account. Beeman.

[bertiedog]

I did mention "steel wire", not just piano wire, and I use whatever steel wire is to hand, even spending £5.00 on a reel would be expensive!! Old guitar string, surplus wire at shows, recovered scrap, etc., will all do for wire in tube, which can accept a wider range of types than open or semi open wire, which has to be stiffer. The tubes are generally scrap plastic tubes, plastic insulation tubing, or through eyelets.

Stephen.

[burgundy]

I am working on a 4' by 18" shunting yard and plan to use wire in tube to activate the turnouts. The baseboard is the kind of dense 2" deep insulation foam that is available from a well known D-I-Y store and plan A was simply to bury the wire-in-tube into the surface of the board. When it came to locating the switches (electrical micro-swiches), however, it became clear that these would have to be grouped together so that none of them are now in alignment with the turnouts that they operate. No problem - add angle cranks and run the wires down one edge of the baseboard, then use an angle crank to change the movement by 90⁰ to operate the blades. My hesitation is that this is going to mean that the wires and cranks will have to be buried under scenery. And every instinct tells me that, sooner or later, any mechanical linkage is going to need attention of some kind - which will therefore mean major excavation of some of the scenery. Am I missing something - or is there an obvious way round this one?

Grateful for any suggestions or experiences.

Eric

[scotcent]

I decided from the beginning to use wire in tubes to operate my turnouts, using small, cheap DPDT switches with holes in the levers to operate them and to change the crossing polarity. The switches are all grouped together as "signalboxes" and the tubes are led through the underlay. This means that all the tubes are curved, some quite tortuously. I'm using plastic tube (from MSE), and so far have had no problems after they're set up.(I'm quite clear that most metal tubes can be bent as well) It is important to make sure the tube is firmly fixed, especially at the ends. And it's desirable to plan your construction so that you don't need to lay tube ubder previously laid track.

 

Allan F

[burgundy]

The switches are all grouped together as "signalboxes" and the tubes are led through the underlay. This means that all the tubes are curved, some quite tortuously.

 

Alan

That pretty much describes the arrangement that I have in mind.

The shortest length of rodding would be 6" in one direction, then an angle crank and then 12" at right angles. If this were done with a curved tube, it suggests a 6" radius. Is this within your definition of "tortuous"?

Many thanks

Eric