The Cambridge guided bus farce

[PhilJ W]

On BBC east tonight >>

http://news.bbc.co.u...000/9130330.stm

[Oldfield_Park]

Us poor Cambridgeshire tax-payers will pay, as always.

 

This whole thing has been a mess from start to...well, it's not exactly reached 'finish' yet has it? The whole thing was concieved by a few souls (many long since departed) at the local council, seemingly as some sort of pet project, and look whats happened. When the local papers (the Hunts Post is usually quite vocal) point out the mistakes that have been made and in particular the abysmal lack of communication between planners and developers you can see quite clearly that this project would have stood a better chance of working out if it had been project managed by my toilet brush.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I wonder what the purpose of this actually is. After costing the track, infrastructure and mods to the buses, one wonders whether just building a bus only road would have the same effect/save money.

 

i would lay odds that this is a designated tramway and, as such, is aimed at obtaining central government or even European grants that aren't available for buses or trains.

 

These hybrid technologies never seem to work very well although the Croydon one seems to be quite successful. That is a proper integarted tram system using some old BR track to Elmers End that has been downgraded to tram use and using existing roads with dedicated tram tracks.

[Horsetan]

Yes, I wonder how much it would have cost if the route had reopened as a railway......

[Foulounoux]

There is an established thread on this already isnt there?

 

Strange Prototype (of what?) in East Anglia

 

 

Colin

[wiggoforgold]

I get the impression it was forced through by local "planning experts" who disregarded local opposition to support their own pet project. They then walked away from it when it didn't work. A fairly typical approach in my experience.

The busway looks ghastly anyway, and is totally out of keeping with the local environment. There was a perfectly good railway line there. Why not convert that into a light railway like Docklands or Manchester, with it continuing as a tramway from Cambridge station to the centre of Cambridge (or cheaper stillchange to a bus at Cambridge station) or was that too easy, and it might actually have worked?

[Edwin_m]

Two separate issues here.

 

The construction of the busway has run into contractual problems. This isn't unique to the busway by any means, just look at the farrago on the Edinburgh tramway for example. On the other hand several less ambitious busways have been built without major problems and are filling a niche in the transport system.

 

The bigger issue is whether the busway will work reliably and provide a useful form of transport at a sensible cost. I mentioned the niche systems above but the Cambridgeshre one is the first really long route in the UK and I believe the first in the world apart from Adelaide. Its usefulness and reliability can't be determined until it is up and running, which is another reason why the delays are frustrating to those of us who would like to find out.

[Supaned]

Am I right in saying that previous guided busway schemes in the UK have all fizzled out?

 

The issue to me seems to be that the people who come up with these bright ideas never seem to take heed of advice or alternatives , then wash their hands of the problems when they inevitably crop up.

 

I'm sure that to rehabilitate the railway line would have cost a lot of money to bring it up to "mainline" standards , but surely a light rail system would have been cheaper

 

My concern now is that the busway will be quietly forgotten and then Sustrans will claim the right of way , thereby precluding any future rebuilding/expansion.

[Edwin_m]

Am I right in saying that previous guided busway schemes in the UK have all fizzled out?

 

No, they are in use in Leeds, Bradford, Crawley and other places, without major problems as far as I am aware. The difference is that those guided sections are relatively short and there is an easy alternative route down the road if the busway is blocked. A blockage on the Cambridgeshire scheme would lead to a long diversion and potentially vehicles trapped behind the blockage. As reversing out is difficult or impossible I am interested to know how they plan to deal with this, preferably before the Luton-Dunstable scheme gets into the same situation!

[PaulG]

Edwin_M "blockage on the Cambridgeshire scheme would lead to a long diversion and potentially vehicles trapped behind the blockage. As reversing out is difficult or impossible I am interested to know how they plan to deal with this, preferably before the Luton-Dunstable scheme gets into the same situation!"

 

This issue must have been covered in the Designers Risk Assessment for the project and should be available on request to the Client, which is presumably is Cambridgshire CC. A similar document will exist for the Luton scheme.

 

Regards

Paul

[Edwin_m]

Edwin_M "blockage on the Cambridgeshire scheme would lead to a long diversion and potentially vehicles trapped behind the blockage. As reversing out is difficult or impossible I am interested to know how they plan to deal with this, preferably before the Luton-Dunstable scheme gets into the same situation!"

 

This issue must have been covered in the Designers Risk Assessment for the project and should be available on request to the Client, which is presumably is Cambridgshire CC. A similar document will exist for the Luton scheme.

 

I'd agree this issue should have been considered. I spend a lot of time on risk assessment at the interface between design and operations and when the two sets of people get together round a table you'd be surprised at the things they suddenly realise they've missed.

[John M Upton]

I have never seen the point in these guided bus ways at all. As far as I can tell they are nothing more than an over priced, over designed and over engineered bus lane! The Gosport to Fareham one being a case in point where a light rail tram or reinstating the railway line, even if only single track with simple modular bus shelter style station platforms would have been a far better option. Yes probably more expensive but better value for money which in my opinion is more important.

[St. Simon]

Yes, I wonder how much it would have cost if the route had reopened as a railway......

 

Hi,

 

The Railway Magazine worked it out as being a lot lot less to build a railway along the route instead a of busway

 

Simon

[meil]

The point you are all missing is that the regional transport authorities are full of numpties who have no interest in spending public money wisely.

 

Their only interest is promoting their own harebrained schemes because they are "sexy" (yes that's the term they use!).

 

They are also there to massage the ego of local politicians. So a cost effective road scheme would simply not do.

 

Just look at the other waste of public money; the Midland Metro - everything could have been achieved at a third of the cost by use of dedicated bus-ways.

 

 

[JohnR]

I seem to recall from a few years ago that the cost of reconstructing this line as a proper network standard branch line was approximately half that then quoted for conversion to a busway.

[edcayton]

What a surprise that a rail enthusiasts' forum think it should be a railway of some sort!

 

Fact is it ain't gonna be unbuilt now. What I am desperately trying to find are reasons to justify the choice of a GUIDED busway. The only realistic reason that I have seen so far is that because the buses are guided, the WIDTH of the two-lane busway can be significantly less than if they were not guided and had to be steered by the drivers. This apparently means that a two-track guideway can fit on the formation of a single track rail line.

 

Having recently been up there and had a good close look at it I can't see this, and anyway IIRC the railway was double track from St Ives to Cambridge.

 

I'm not sure that talk of numpties and sexy projects is going to get us anywhere, but the fact is that a lot of sensible people MUST have been convinced that it was a good idea and I'd just like to know why.

 

Ed

[edcayton]

What I also meant to say was that the video that the OP linked to was the first time I have seen it in action, and I am surprise how close the tolerances seem to be. I do wonder if the next generation of buses will be able to use it because they will need to be the same width.

 

On a similar note, my son works for the London Ambulance Service whose fleet is almost entirely Mercedes Sprinters with a Coachbuilt ambulance body. They are now up-grading to the new model of Sprinter and they are a bit taller. Not much, but enough that they can't fit under the doorways of the ambulance stations!!

 

Ed

[Gwiwer]

The entire scheme looks to have been a pet project designed around the concept of getting public transport from city centre to doorstep avoiding the lengthy hike to or from Cambridge railway station. I do not believe there would have been insuperable capacity issues had a rail line been reinstated but the service frequency would very likely have been far inferior to that proposed for the buses.

 

There are many problematical issues ranging from construction to operation and certainly some might have been better handled and resolved before now. The current legislation which controls bus service provision has had to be adapted to prevent a free-for-all by any operator who cared to register a busway service, for example. This effectively protects the permitted operators which flies in the face of the deregulation enshrined in Ridley's Transport Act.

 

Whether or not the railway could have been reinstated for less than the price of the busway it is pertinent to ask whether it would have received the level of patronage for perhaps an hourly service stopping on the edge of the City of Cambridge and terminating at St. Ives compared with the anticipated use of a much more frequent bus service which reaches the city centre, serves major trip generators such as Addenbrooke's Hospital directly and extends to Huntingdon and can access residential streets on the way.

 

In terms of failures on the line this would be no different to other fixed-route operations. The Adelaide O-Bahn, currently the longest such busway in the World until Cambridge opens, along with the former Runcorn busway and numerous others such as the Birmingham Trac-Line scheme use (or used) recovery vehicles which can push or tow a disabled bus out of the way. It takes a little time but is no different in that respect to a failure blocking a railway or tramway. In the meantime some service can be provided on conventional roads which is a bonus not available to rail or tram operators without hiring in additional resources.

 

I personally believe the logic behind the busway is flawed and that it should have been reinstated as a railway but I do not have access to all the relevant studies and costs. Most other busway schemes have been limited trials and while they have not endured the larger scheme in Adelaide, where there is very little in the way of suburban rail operation, where the main railway station is a short tram ride or moderate walk from the city centre and and most public transport is by bus, has done so successfully.

[Pacific231G]

I seem to recall from a few years ago that the cost of reconstructing this line as a proper network standard branch line was approximately half that then quoted for conversion to a busway.

 

I saw the thing the last time I went to Cambridge by train and it just seemed incredibly ugly and intrusive compared with tram systems I've seen recently in France where the trackbed apart from the actual rails was grassed over. These things do strike me as a bit akin to monorails and maglevs. They're what people who think rail must be obsolete by now build when they need rail and usually involve large ugly concrete beams.

 

The figures I've seen indicate that car users simply won't leave their cars for a bus but will for a train or tram with a reasonably frequent service and will a bit for a trolleybus. (When I lived in the suburbs of Southampton I hardly ever used the bus to get into town, now I live in the suburbs of London I wouldn't think of using my car for jouneys into the centre because the tube is a ten minute walk away and runs every six minutes.

 

I think this has something to do with the certainty of service that passengers anticipate- not always justifiably- from a rail based system. Psychologically the presence of rails implies the imminent presence of trains or trams, the presence of trolley wires implies somewhat less vaguely that there must be something using them, but a pole stuck in the pavement only tells you that the bus might turn up sometime unless the traffic is bad and then might stop if it's not full (tube trains always stop even when they're jammed). I'd hazard a guess that guided busways sit in the trolleybus category of getting people to use them instead of cars so ought to cost about the same and a lot less than rail. If they cost more than rail then what is the point. Their advantage is that the bus can leave the guideway and use ordinary roads but that is also the disadvantage because when they do so they may get stuck in traffic and that will be people's perception of them.

[Edwin_m]

In terms of failures on the line this would be no different to other fixed-route operations. The Adelaide O-Bahn, currently the longest such busway in the World until Cambridge opens, along with the former Runcorn busway and numerous others such as the Birmingham Trac-Line scheme use (or used) recovery vehicles which can push or tow a disabled bus out of the way. It takes a little time but is no different in that respect to a failure blocking a railway or tramway. In the meantime some service can be provided on conventional roads which is a bonus not available to rail or tram operators without hiring in additional resources.

 

What I don't know is whether they are providing a specially adapted vehicle for the Cambridgeshire route. The situation is not the same as a tramway, since with most tram failures the tram behind can couple up and push out. A failure on the busway will need the driver to contact someone to get the breakdown vehicle mobilised, which must then drive to the next access point ahead and (probably) reverse down the guideway to reach the casualty before towing it back to the access point. In the meantime, depending on how access point spacing relative to the service frequency and whether the operator has good communications, there may be several more buses trapped behind the failure. All these issues are more problematic on a cross-country busway than on the localised ones that have been built up to now.

 

Edclayton's querying of the reason for the guidance is pertinent. If it was unguided then the breakdown situation would be less of a problem as a normal breakdown truck could just drive in and in the meantime other buses could pass the failure. Apart from certain bridges and possibly stops (where guidance on one side gives a very small gap for wheelchair access) I suspect it is cheaper to widen the formation a little to provide a conventional road rather than building the guideways. Short sections of guideway could also be provided near access points to prevent use by other vehicles. The real reason may be that locals would be more likely to object to something that could be modified quite easily for use by general traffic.

[PhilJ W]

Several people have made some pertinent observations on this thread. The presence of infrastructure does indicate the presence of a service even if it is a bus lane marked on the road. I know people in the bus industry who will confirm that even just a bus lane encourages an increase in ridership. In the circumstances we are discussing it is obvious that it was someones pet project that had not been thought out properly or/and the wrong 'experts' consulted. As for the special busway being necessary for buses to pass each other would it not have been easier (and cheaper) to build a conventional road with passing places with the timings of the service set so the buses meet at such places? hardly rocket science. My opinion is that a rail service would have been better with a coordinated conventional bus service to/from the city centre but a joined-up service requires joined-up thinking. I am also aware that even the bus operators were against this scheme. Extra equipment means extra expense and in this case would not be cost effective. The extra costs involved could only be justified if the system was used intensively 24/7 which in this case is never going to happen. An additional point is that some rail freight companies wanted the rails retained as an additional route to and from Felixstowe.

[stewartingram]

Standard buses are being used on the route (in fact already in service on the parellel "old" route). They do however have guide wheel modifications for the busway. 2 operators, Stagecoach (with the biggest fleet) and Whippet (2x s/d) have signed up to give a service. I believe their contract expires at the end of this year! I've read somewhere that a 20 min interval service is to be provided?

[pete_mcfarlane]

I seem to recall from a few years ago that the cost of reconstructing this line as a proper network standard branch line was approximately half that then quoted for conversion to a busway.

 

It depend who you get to work out the costs. There's a very vocal campaign for the reopening of the Uckfield - Lewes line who have produced their own costings which are several times less than the professionally produced ones. It also depends on how you plan to reinstate the railway line - as a single track siding with no signals and minimal stations or as a 90mph double tracked secondary line.

 

I suspect the cost of shuttling a 153 backwards and forwards from Cambridge to St Ives every 90 minutes would be less than the cost of the bus lane, but not much use to the travelling public.

[Re6/6]

Slightly off topic here. Locally we have two ludicrously short 'bus lanes' up/down a slight hill. They are so short (about 100 metres or so) as to be useless. They are on a piece of plain road. I understood from a local councillor that they were only put in so as to qualify for a government grant for other schemes. Perhaps in these straightened times, all this style of goverment funding should be swept away.

 

Unfortunately the councillors/planners of failed/over budget schemes always seem never to be accountable. Perhaps there should be a 'name and shame' mentality.

[Colin]

 

The busway looks ghastly anyway, and is totally out of keeping with the local environment.

 

 

I agree - it looks very much like the early Lego Railway system to me.