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Pointless?


Vistisen

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It has been a long time since my last post. This is not just because I’m busy with other duties. It’s also because I did not want to write while in the depths of despair! I finally took the model railway rite of passage and tried to build my first point. My long suffering friend Richard, who as a highly competent school teacher is used to dealing with ‘special case’ pupils undertook to teach me the black art of bending rails and filing vee’s It stated off well. I calibrated my printer and printed out a point from Templot. It is one that will end up in a siding, as I was advised not to build a mainline point as my first attempt. it is a BH-4SF GWR curved D+V-6 RH (that’s what it says on the paper) I have bought DCC concepts rail, flux, solder and track gauges. The sleepers are from C&L and are the thin ones that match the DCCconcepts track, I also bought Exactoscale GWR 2 bolt chairs. I even joined the P4 society to buy a vee filing jig. So I was ready to go.
I manged the first bit without any errors. That is to say, I could stick the pieces of A4 paper together, and cut the sleepers out.
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Under supervision I cut and filed rails for a ‘6 vee’ and then using Richards ‘not yet patented, but it jolly well should be’ vee gauge jig, tried to solder the two rails together.
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Then it all went pear-shaped. I simply could not solder the rails together, finally after an hour we gave up and I was persuaded to try and use nickel-silver rail instead. Result one vee soldered on first attempt! Not only that it is much easier to file the nickel-steel rail than the stainless-steel rail.
One angry e-mail to DccConcepts later and I was advised to buy a 3mm wedge soldering iron bit and use more heat. A few weeks later after our annual new years bash, we commenced again but with not much more luck. After a couple of hours, I gave up and started muttering about using Hornby Set-track. My teacher is made of sterner stuff and he sent me off to make the dinner and got down to work. He managed with a lot of sweating and words that won’t be allowed on RMWEB to solder the blades and one check rail. But even he was wanting to drop the DccConcepts rail.
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As an experiment, I tried to solder it to copper printed circuit boards: no luck, soldering a dropper wire to a section of flex track: no luck L
This was the state of play until this evening, I am lucky to be surrounded by good neighbours, one of whom works repairing electrical equipment. ‘It’s not the heat, it’s the solder was his comment. And he bought along a sample of Multicore 60/40 grade ARAX Acid Cored Solder Wire, made of Sn and Pb alloy for metal fabrication. With not much hope I took a piece of wire and tried to solder it to a piece of DccConcepts track without any mucking about with glass fibre pens for cleaning and all that rubbish. To my immense surprise, It worked first time. I must admit I got a bit carried away and within two minutes I had soldered a piece of PCB to a rail, two bits of rail together, and a pair of pliers to a rail. (the last one was by accident). Mind you he stressed very strongly the need to neutralize the result, apparently unless I do the house will be melted down when I wake the next day.

 

But I can solder! Suddenly the world seems full of possibilities.
So to sum up: I was wondering about going back to Tillig track, But I’m not prepared to give up on the flowing point work and OO gauge sleepers.

 

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I think that I will use the pack of track and rail that I have bought. After that I will change to the new PECO track for ordinary track. Points will be built using nickel silver rail, although I will use the 10M of stainless steel rail as for the outside rails on points as there are not many soldered connections on these rails. This is because I’m a Scrooge and cannot face throwing it away.
I feel the need to say that I AM a big fan of many DccConcepts products and use their pointmotors and still will, and their fabulous DCC modules that allow both push button and DCC operation of points are billiant. I will almost certainly use the ALPHA system for control via fewer wires and find their new surface mount point motors very interesting. But I believe true loyalty means saying what you think is the truth and I have to say their stainless-steel rail is not for me and I STRONGY suggest you sample it for soldering purposes before buying large amounts of it.
Just so the DCCConcepts don’t feel that I om on a crusade! I have to say that Exactoscale need to look at their moulds. I thought it was just me but my friend agreed the GWR chairs 2 bolt mould is too worn out. The chairs on one side of each section consistently snap in two when being pushed onto rails more than the ones on the other side!

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I'm not surprised that you had difficulty soldering stainless steel.  The reason the stuff remains 'stainless' is that it has a natural passive coating, which protects it from oxidation (rusting).  It is essential to use an aggressive flux that can remove this coating, so that the solder can bond to the metal underneath.

 

There are some useful guidelines on the British Stainless Steel Association website.  As you have found, you need an acid flux (phosphoric or even hydrochloric acid) and, preferably, a solder with a high tin content.  Scrupulous cleaning is needed after using aggressive flux, to prevent corrosion setting in during service of the soldered parts.

 

Personally, I'd stick with nickel silver, because it is much easier to work.

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  • RMweb Gold

Personally, I'd stick with nickel silver, because it is much easier to work.

 

Agreed.

 

It's a bit of a mystery why DCC Concepts have gone for stainless steel. There can't be much of a price advantage. The colour is not much different from "white" nickel-silver (hi-ni alloy), and neither look quite right for real rail (which isn't stainless steel).

 

Martin.

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Just out of curiosity why are you building a D-6 into straight (or straightish) track? 

 

Quentin

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Martin, don't agree. IMHO the rail does look more like real prototype steel rail than anything else, including the model railway steel rail.

 

Soldering the DCC Concepts rail need not be difficult, it's a question of using the right flux, solder and temperature.

I found that the Flux DCC Concepts sell works very well on ordinary steel rail and doesn't need cleaning off, does not rust it and seems to leave it chemically blackened. I must admit that I didn't find it much use on the Stainless variety and preferred to use the Building O Gauge online safety flux, which with Rapids Lead Free solder, worked for me. The flux will need washing off though, as otherwise it will leave a white deposit.

 

Temperature, needs to be 450C and with a decent size bit. Speed is essential (preferably with heat sinks) if you wish to avoid melting chairs etc.

 

C&L chairs. Plastic chairs have always had this problem, the Exactoscale ones perhaps even more so. There is a way to avoid this happening, simply chamfer the foot and web of the rail, the chairs will then slide on very easily.

 

I have to say that even with all this new activity, I still think C&L is the best bet over-all. They have the track in all the 4mm scale gauges, range of chairs and rail which might not quite match the DCC Concepts, is still pretty good and easier to use.

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  • RMweb Gold

Just out of curiosity why are you building a D-6 into straight (or straightish) track? 

 

Quentin

 

Not sure really. I don't know much about points but have the general idea that the longer and the less 'extreme' the angle the better. Recognising the fact that all model railways are far too compressed compared to reality. I want to use the largest size I could while still being able to fit everything in. As I say I know next to nothing about track, What is it that causes you to wonder? is the D or the 6?

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Thanks Vistiaen, really enjoyed your post.

 

As a beginner who has yet to build his first layout, I know next to nothing about pretty much everything.  I've been persuaded to wait for the DCC track and points, but your post has left with night sweats.  Although I've been an electrical engineer, and at one time held a mil-spec soldering certificate, I am seriously concerned about the prospect of trying to solder droppers to their rail.

 

Did you say that DCC didn't/couldn't provide flux and solder that worked?

 

Maybe I will just go with C&L + Peco points.  Being located in Australia, the layout (should it ever be realised) will never be published or attend a show, and I doubt anyone that will see it will be able to tell the difference.  Except, of course, me.

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Well done on persevering with your point work. You should have seen the mess i made of  the first ones i built! Like most things, as you make more, hopefully things improve, as i`m sure you will find out eventually.

Personally i find point making interesting in that you can create whatever suits your situation. Any radius turnout i needed i drew on the back of  old bits of wallpaper using a piece of string with a knot in it and a pencil on the other end at the required distance, once drawn, it was laid over a sleeper drawing, a piece of grease proof paper went over that ( for transparency ) copper clad sleepers laid in their positions and the rail curved and soldered according to the said drawing.

This might sound a long winded way of doing it but it worked for me and they`re still in use.

Best of luck with your own constructions

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Vistiaen, really enjoyed your post.

 

As a beginner who has yet to build his first layout, I know next to nothing about pretty much everything.  I've been persuaded to wait for the DCC track and points, but your post has left with night sweats.  Although I've been an electrical engineer, and at one time held a mil-spec soldering certificate, I am seriously concerned about the prospect of trying to solder droppers to their rail.

 

Did you say that DCC didn't/couldn't provide flux and solder that worked?

 

Maybe I will just go with C&L + Peco points.  Being located in Australia, the layout (should it ever be realised) will never be published or attend a show, and I doubt anyone that will see it will be able to tell the difference.  Except, of course, me.

I wrote very carefully. I have decided that DCC rail and soldering is not something I can do reliably enough that I feel secure in building 20 + points using it. I don't doubt that others can. But if I'm not to lose what little forward momentum I have, then I must  make things easy for myself. I do want to see my own points, even just looking at the half built one here gives me satisfaction. Sad but true! I recommend that you try it before investing heavily. In fact I can will help out. I have bought one pack of rail. Anyone who wants to can send me a PM and I cut a bit about 10 Cm off and send it, as long as you'll pay postage cost ( I Live in Denmark)  and the price of a padded envelope. The rail is free! all I want in return is to hear your results :-)

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I wrote very carefully. I have decided that DCC rail and soldering is not something I can do reliably enough that I feel secure in building 20 + points using it. I don't doubt that others can. But if I'm not to lose what little forward momentum I have, then I must  make things easy for myself. I do want to see my own points, even just looking at the half built one here gives me satisfaction. Sad but true! I recommend that you try it before investing heavily. In fact I can will help out. I have bought one pack of rail. Anyone who wants to can send me a PM and I cut a bit about 10 Cm off and send it, as long as you'll pay postage cost ( I Live in Denmark)  and the price of a padded envelope. The rail is free! all I want in return is to hear your results :-)

 

Thanks again - I think that trying it out before investing heavily is a great idea!  For myself, I'm unlikely to tackle turnout construction, at least not on my first layout, but I will still need to solder droppers.

 

Did you get the Sapphire 179 solder from DCC?  That seems to be the one that they're recommending.

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  • RMweb Gold

Yes I bought both the S179 solder and and their SFNC flux that are recommended. I quite understand not starting with hand built points. Neither did I, I first section of the layout was built using Tillig points, I think they are much better to look at than Pecos and are very elegant, if a bit less robust than Pecos points.

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  • RMweb Gold

What is it that causes you to wonder? is the D or the 6?

 

Hi,

 

Nothing wrong with a D switch, or a 1:6 crossing. But they don't go well together, creating an unbalanced turnout with a long slender switch section leading to an abrupt shortish crossing.

 

In fact the prototype doesn't list a D-6 as a standard size at all.

 

The shortest crossing listed for use with a D switch on the GWR is 1:10. Other prototypes go down to 1:8 but it would be an odd size.

 

The switch normally used with a 1:6 crossing is a B switch (or an A switch in yards and sidings).

 

To create a more satisfactory turnout in a similar length to the D-6 I suggest you go for a B-8.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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  • RMweb Gold

Thank you very much Martin,

 

This is very useful information. And I'm sure that it is on the Templot Site , (somewhere :-))

Is there a 'typical point size for different scenarios' page?

By Scenarios I mean things like. Sidings, country stations, mainline crossovers, motive power depots, and so.

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