Highclere - 2mm Finescale

Usually in the vicinity of the signalbox.

Usually in the vicinity of the signalbox.

 

A person of few words! The originals were around the end of the platform (as in the photo) whilst the signalbox was towards the other end of the platform.

 

J

Consider the function. The loco crew must be able to reach the apparatus when running through. The signalman must be able to place and retrieve the tokens quickly to expedite the regulation of trains. The real railway had a 'signal siting committee', whom I have accompanied, to make the least worst compromise when choosing a signal position. I imagine a similar process would apply for siting the token apparatus.

I've seen relatively few photos of these, but most seem to be close to the signalbox as 'Miss Prism' suggests (and as per the example here).

 

Just a thought, but might there also need to be two sets - one for each direction of travel?

 

The ballasting looks top notch btw - and really sets off that point rodding well!

 

Andy

I don't remember them but I DO remember the research for them!

 

Very nice work Missy!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Afraid I can't help with the sighting of the tablet apparatus but, as Andy says, the trackwork is looking superb. The first, black and white shot is particularly atmospheric.

 

Jerry

Hi Guys

 

Thank you for the replies. I cant post a picture that I have but if anyone has got the 'Didcot Newbury and Southampton Railway' book by Paul Karau there is a photo on page 131 which shows where I was thinking. It makes sense to me as well to have them close to the signal box but from the picture I have of the prototype it seems to be at the other end of the platform to the signal box.

 

 

Just a thought, but might there also need to be two sets - one for each direction of travel?

 

Andy

 

Yes, I havent made the other ones yet!

 

 

I don't remember them but I DO remember the research for them!

Castle

 

Yes, I enjoyed that day, thank you very much for helping me out.

 

Julia

Julia Highclere looks better every time you show us  fantastic work on all the details

Nigel

I was thinking of Burghclere:

http://www.kestrelrailwaybooks.co.uk/burghclere_files/image003.jpg

 

But, silly question, weren't there two sets of apparatii, one for up and one for down?

Julia,

Can't help with the siting of the token apparatus but the ballasting looks superb!  As others have said really shows up the point rodding, and as I mentioned in an earlier blog it just looks to scale which is rare especially in 2mm I think.

Ian

Assuming there is a set for each direction then either it doesn't matter where they are placed relative to direction or they will be a different ends. I would assume the catcher would be at the entrance to the loop so the tablet can be released if it was afterwards the tablet could only be released on exit which wouldn't make sense. The tablet needs to be given up so it can be returned to the machine. Otherwise two train could sit there unable to move until the other has released the tablet.

Well that's my thoughts but not backed by either knowlege or observation.

Don

Miss Prism is heading in the right direction - you need a set in each direction.  And logically they would be near the signalbox end of the loops - rather daft putting them too far from the signalbox when you think about it.

Julia,

 

As others have said, the usual position would be near to the signal box because the tokens need to get to and from the machine. Real life can surprise us though, so I wouldn't say 'always'. I don't have much of use regarding the DN&S but Robert Hendry's 'BR Infrastructure in Colour' has a set of photos of Newtown on the Cambrian which show the token exchange gear near to the box. They also show that the diagram in the box includes symbols to show the location of the gear.

 

I had a shufty at the low res signal diagram for 1943 at http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/T3010.htm. I can't see any squiggles on there that might relate to the token exchange gear but I'm not sure whether the SRS include these symbols in their plans or not.

 

On a slightly different tack I do note that your box is well clear of both platforms on the down side. Up trains forced to wait in the passing loop for a token would probably have had an even longer wait because the loco would be standing a very long way from the box. At some locations this was dealt with by having an extra token instrument near to where the loco would be waiting so that a token could be obtained more quickly (by the train crew I think). This usually consists of a little shed with the instrument inside.

 

Regards, Andy

Thanks guys

 

That is interesting because in the photo I have (in that book) it clearly shows two sets of token apparatus at the end of the platform opposite to the signal box (where the signal is in the last photo above) so would this mean the token exchange would take place there away from the signal box? I must admit its where I had planned to put them (well 1 of them until I build the second one) but I am a little confused about it all now. I could put them by the signal box at the other end of the loop by the sidings if it makes it all look a little more realistic but this will be deviating away from the prototype, but then alot of the layout has already done that!

 

Julia

If both sets of apparatus were still at the northern end of the platforms when the loop was lengthened, then that's how it should be in my view. Bells and token instruments on the DN&S were originally all in the station buildings rather than in the boxes, but I assume this changed for the southern section when it was rebuilt with the new boxes. It could however explain why the lineside apparatus was retained at the north end of the station, albeit somewhat inconvenient to the signalman. Maybe the small number of trains crossing at Highclere never warranted a resiting of the lineside gear - walking distance for the signalman was not a great issue, things being very leisurely on the DN&S. (In the hectic weeks running up to D-day, no doubt extra staff were on hand to cope with the traffic.)

 

I haven't got my Karau book with me, but it might be useful to peruse what the arrangements were on the other southern section stations were to see if there is any consistent rationale.

Thank you Miss P.

I think the moral of this story is never to bend the truth too much as it gets complicated. That makes sense to me as the token apparatus looks like it was removed when the passing loop was lengthened. To add to the complication I am using the rebuilt signal box which was situated past the end of the platform near the sidings and not on the platform where the previous signal box was.

Its amazing how by tweaking the truth a little, how much it can change! It seems there are a few options...

1. Place the token stuff as per the prototype at the end of the platform and have it a large distance from the signal box.

2. Place the token stuff near the signal box so it looks in the right place although not prototypical for Highclere (but then the layout isnt anyway)

3. Not bother with the token stuff and flog them on ebay or something!

 

J

Bells and token instruments on the DN&S were originally all in the station buildings rather than in the boxes.

This made me think of the 1921 Abermule disaster on the Cambrian where the location of the token instrument in the station building was a contributory factor, along with several different members of staff handling the token. The recommendations included ensuring that the token instruments were in the signal box and interlocking between the token release and the signals. I don't have any info on how soon (or even if) this was actually done but conceivably it may have triggered changes at Highclere before the WW2 improvements.

 

Regards, Andy

Abermule was a complex sequence of events going wrong amongst a number of staff (arguably too many of them) not communicating with each other, and lax practices. It is possible the DN&S arrangements had a better interlocking between starting signals and the token machines, but I've no idea how (or even if) this was achieved. I take your point, though, and it's an interesting thought that the token machines might have been relocated prior to the WWII changes, but I would have thought the Karau book would have mentioned such a relocation.

 

Maybe there was never enough staff on the DN&S to get confused!

 

(When the northern section was double-tracked, I think all the intermediate stations became 'tokenless blocks'.)

 

P.S. Julia - gotta be option 1...

Thanks

 

(When the northern section was double-tracked, I think all the intermediate stations became 'tokenless blocks'.)

 

Most of the photos I have seen show that there werent even signals at Highclere in the later years so that makes sense to me regarding the tokens. I am guessing it was through the lack of and serious amount of traffic after the war which meant the change in operation.

 

Thanks for the vote MP, option 1 is my preferred one but as I have 'chopped' the station around so much I wasnt sure how valid an option it would be. The thought was to plant them inbetween the signal and the end of the platform.

 

J

Plenty of clear pictures of the arrangements at Burghclere in "Burghclere signalman", in that both sets of posts were by the signalbox (as others have said).

 

At the other end of the loop (very long post war) was a remote instrument, so no posts out there.

The big problem at Ambermule was no one actually looked at the token to check it was the right one they just assumed it was correct. The crew were hane back the token they had just given up one glance would have saved many lives.

Don

For a quick answer why not temporarily plant them where you think best and then go out on exhibition. Someone who knows (or thinks they do) will tell you whether its wrong.

 

This is one of the problems of not working to a prototype plan in totallity for reference.  My own layout's trackplan was all conjecture using up turnouts I had made up over time while giving demo's and seminars. I kind'a shook the box to see where they would fit. I've regretted it ever since but the layout was only meant to be an area group test bed - it just grew from there.

One comment from the public was that my original double slip allowed direct access into the goods yard. I later rebuilt the formation on site by removing the K-crossing area and fitting new closure rails to create something like two facing turnouts on the same footprint. I thought at the time it was totally without prototype but was much later surprised to find a photograph (and that a later 2mm layout  has now a similar configuration). My real reason to rebuild the double slip was that I often had stock wrong roading at the K . I had applied the original 0.019" and 0.022" flangeway specifications  and, really,  they are logically impossible. Now you know why I caused such a controversy years back by suggesting The Association adapt to and adopt 20/20 thou's for flangeways. Just in time really with the advent of Templot!

Thanks for the post Andrew.

 

I agree with you about modelling a prototype, its a double edged sword indeed. One one side its easier to get things right as you are in effect copying something that actually exists but at the same time if you drift away from the prototype it gets very difficult to keep it looking correct and obvious when its not.

 

I am still undecided as to the fate of the tablet catchers right now so have decided to move onto something else for now. I am sure it will becomme obvious where to put them in time.

 

Julia

In "Great Western Branch Line Modelling" part 1 by Stephen Williams there are two photographs on p.46 that might help. The one of Highclere is surely of the Edwardian era. It shows the whole extend of the platforms but no token apparatus (the signal box is already there, though). The other photograph shows Upton&Blewbury sometime (hard to guess) pre-WW2. Here one token apparatus is beyond the signal box, the one on the opposite side on the far end from the signal box. It is placed directly at the end of the platform next to the starting signal. Both are only passed by the loco when it is nearly leaving the station. So there seems to be a different layout than at Burghclere...