Jon020's Workbench Blog

Jon, can't help with paint stripper, I'm afraid. However

 

- I've had success in my perennial battle with orange-peel by flatting it down very lightly with wet & dry, then a very, very light brush-applied top coat. This has proved successful with relatively flush coach sides, your model has much surface detail which may rule this one out.

 

- I've tried the add more varnish to smooth it out, as far as I can see - it won't

 

- think positive, see the promise of the underlying model, not the flaw of the current finish.

Jon - what an interesting an thought provoking blog entry. I am so sorry to hear that the painting, the thing you've been worrying and agonising over, has gone so wrong in your eyes. My experience with some of the Precision paints in the past has been very bad as well - to the point where now I'd always use Railmatch enamels. Not much help now, but if I'd paid attention earlier... oh well, hindsight yada yada. I have used ModelStrip paste in the past as a stripper and it got back to the original finish, but that was many years ago so I'm afraid I can answer about newer products. Leave the model a few weeks, and then re-assess where you want to go... either to 'finish' it with transfers, some matt varnish, weather it and sell it on (on a basic chassis) or strip it and take two - but risk the damage of some of that exquisitely fine detail!

 

 

In my modelling career I can think of at least three 'oh s**t' moments in recent years. I can totally sympathise with your experience this weekend. They usually revolve around painting - and can often be 'rescued' but YOU always see the comprimise. I have come to live with these, through the positive praise of other modellers - and the reflection that life is too short... but in the moment, in that split second you either want to laugh, cry or get cross and throw things!! You did the right thing. Cool down and reflect.

 

For me, that 'reflection', that 'lost mojo', resulted in a complete change in direction. Along with other emotional factors at the time I guess... however I've rediscovered what I loved about railway modelling and that's all that really matters. If it's about slavish attention to detail, beautifully observed weathering, historic research or just capturing an artist impression - reflect what really got you excited about modelling back when you started, strip away the rest, the expectation, the forum etc etc, get back to basics.

 

I look forward to seeing what you do next - I'm sure I'll find it both interesting and inspiring, like a couple of the other really good blogs on here!

Hi Jon - I would definately agree you shoudl strip it - pureply because you've mentioned stripping it and typed such a long entry about it, its obvious It will always bug you if you leave it! Plus of course you know then that the next time will be better. Even if everyone else thinks its fine, you are doing the model for yourself - so why not be a little selfish

I'd try some modelstrip - it needs to be the consistancy of butter - so if its not add a few drops of water and mix very thoroughly - then apply it with a stiff-ish brush (something just softer than the softest of toothbrushes) into all the nooks and crannies and all over.Leave in an air tight box for approx 45 minutes (the instructions say up to 10 hours , if your paint was only done a few days ago it'll work much quicker) This should strip everything but the primer on plastic - although ive always found it takes the primer off metal parts. As modelstrip is caustic itll discolor brass - hence I use it for the shortest time possible, then gently wash off with warm water and a nice soft brush. Based on my experiences with modelstrip its a bit hit and miss if your glue will survive.

 

Ive ever got on with Precision BR blue - Humbrol Garter blue is nicer and gloss , and tends to airbrush better I think. I used it on my sandite unit - built up in many layers , thinned as much as I dare - allowing each pass of the airbrush to dry between coats. It took a couple of days to do but I'm very pleased with the sheen and the color itself.

Jon - sorry to hear/read about this...but we all have had these low points (you've seen plenty from me!) and I am sure you will bounce back again.

 

I know next to nowt about painting...and the stripping of...only that I used some nail varnish remover wipes on one of my detailed 37 bodies....and it completely eroded it....so don't use those!

 

Some sound advice in the above posts and I think as Jon is indicating, you have already made up your mind what to do with it. You have put so much effort into it and the detail is astonishing that it would be a shame to walk away from it for good.

 

Your blog has been informative, entertaining, comical and most enjoyable to read over the months since you started it so perhaps its time to walk away...but only on a temporary basis...reflect, grab a cold beer...or 2...and come back when you are ready.

 

We will all be here waiting...

 

PS - Your sons have an interesting mix of rolling stock on their layout!!

Hi Jon, all i can say is dont give up on it (her?) yet, as above i can vouch for medelstrip, excellent product but always wash off in a sink incase brass bits come unstuck, learnt to my cost when stripping a second hand 24 conversion and it all ended up down plug! Although i there is precisions own paint stripper which might work better i seem to remember it smelt alot like nail varnish remover but clouded up clear plastic so i never bothered with again. Once washed off thouroughly a 'modelstripped' model will take paint just as normal, really is good stuff

Also agree with James (above) and would definately reccomend railmatch enamels if you do decide to have another go, i use the aerosol sprays and would reccomend these to any 1, so easy to use.

 

I really hope its not the end for this project. Having followed the ups and downs, i and im sure alot of us on here have been really looking forward to seeing the finished article, I know how disheartening it is when you arnt happy with a project you have had such high hopes/expectations for so i sympathise completely with you, sometimes its best to walk away and come back with fresh eyes

 

Im sure youll get where you wanted to end up, and theres always the next project on the horizon!

 

Thanks for posting, if it wasnt for your blogs and messages i wouldnt have even contemplated starting one myself.

 

All the best

James

That's galling, so sorry that it's gone wrong - this kind of thing is why painting is my least favourite job

 

The yellow on the ends looks perfect so I'm sure you can get a better finish - maybe solicit a few more opinions and tips before continuing, take a deep breath, and go for it. As James says, you've got that fantastic chassis still in perfect condition, it'd be a shame not to put the body on it. And if bits do fall off while stripping the paint, fitting them back on isn't going to be half as much work as all the filing and sanding and testing was the first time around.

 

When I obliterated the detail on a scratchbuilt loco with aerosol primer (and then dropped it!) I ended up taking it off with lacquer thinner and cotton buds. It took a long time but didn't damage anything. I don't know if it's an appropriate option if you don't want to cut through the primer though. It does have the advantage that you can try a corner and see how it goes before committing.

 

I'd like to add my thanks for your blog too - it's really inspirational and you do a lot of stuff which looks pretty much unbelievable in terms of the fiddliness and quality of workmanship. Keep it up!

Hi Jon,

I am gutted for you mate, and understand what must be going through your mind, as yes it's happen'd to me. You spend hours on a model only to fail at the last thing. I won't carry on about what I did, but you will find it happen's to everyone at some point.

I think stripping the paint may be the way to go but I would try T cut and see if you can't cut back the paint and get a better finish failing that, If you are worried about bits falling off when you strip the body try using thinners on a cotton bud if the paint hasn't fully hardened you mat get a fair bit off.

When you come to repaint the body as I am sure you will in the next few weeks, try railmatch as the others have said it is pretty good. The other thing I would try is use matt paint. I can understand why you used gloss as you want to add waterslide transfers and need to hide the carrier film. I use Replica rub on numbers data panels and double arrows, they can be a pain to get straight but using masking tape to give you a straight line to work from really helps, If you stuff one up just rub it off a try another one. You can then varnish the model and you are done.

Hope this has been of some help.

 

Cheers Peter.

Hi Jon.

 

Really sad to read how dischuffed you are at the moment with this model.

 

I agree with one of the comments above. Put it down for a few weeks, (not too far out of view or you'll maybe not bother anymore), and have a think about how you're going to put it right, NOT about what to do with it. You've done too much already to just give up on it!

 

Actually, I just had a thought. I have got a spare Deltic body and if you need it, you can HAVE it! I have only carved off one set of the footsteps, so effectively started it's conversion. If ever I have had this sort of problem, the whole things gone in the brake fluid for a week, the paints come off and in general, I have always managed to salvage any detail bits for re-use.

 

Your conversion/detailling project here spurred me on whilst I was doing DP2 earlier, to such an extent that if I'd come across it prior to starting my model, DP2 would have been even better detailled. If it's any consolation, based on your model, I'm thinking about having another go with a greater level of detail based on what you've achieved here. Put simply, you've inspired me to do better.

 

DON'T quit on me, (and others), now.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Guys… you are all very kind, and I really appreciate your comments. The title of my blog entry probably needs amending – I might do that… Hopefully it’s not a real end… I’ve come to far to walk away now. I’m beginning to realise what my Grandfather went through… although I’ve babbled on about that before – his scratch built P4 Clan Line was painted a number of times… perhaps now I realise why it didn’t stay painted to long, he was never satisfies with the finish… as I feel now. There’s nothing wrong with being a perfectionist… as long as you are also patient (I need to learn to be more patient). I’ve just been at a loss as to which way to turn. Your comments are of help.

 

Jamie, I did try to flatten it down first time… and believe me, what’s shown here is better than the first result… but the “lumps” on all the ridges and details (I counted three bumps on a cab door handle) are all too much to rub down; I think a further coat would thicken the finish too much.

As for the promise of the underlying model.. yes it’s there all right – it’s under that rubbish coat of paint… that I now (or at some point when I can face it) need to address.

 

James, that’s an interesting point about Precision paints… which I’m kicking myself over – no, you didn’t miss anything earlier, I’d not mentioned it (foolishly perhaps). I too always… always… use Railmatch, as I did for the yellow… over a Humbrol yellow coat (better opacity) … for some reason, I thought that “nah, the Precision’s gonna be more accurate here – and I can have a gloss coat” – oh hindsight is a wonderful thing – I have two bottles of Railmatch BR blue… and this is more matt that this finish, so it would probably have worked fine… yes there is a head height dent in the wall. I can’t see myself leaving the body as it stands… it screams “unforgivable balls up” to me. Right now I can’t look at it. Shame – the top pic in this thread has a certain look about it that almost looked Heljan 7mm… with the errors corrected. The underframe I’m very happy with, including its finish (although I’ll need to sort out an alignment conflict as mentioned).. and this begs the body to be sorted.

I think the strip route beckons… I just need to be prepared for loosing lots of the bits attached to the body, now reflecting that I didn’t strip all of the original paint off first… next time I’ll learn.

You said “in the moment, in that split second you either want to laugh, cry or get cross and throw things!!“ Yup… went through all of these…. I must be getting older in that I didn’t actually drop it in the bin there and then. I appreciate your mojo comment; it’s clear to me that you re-found yours and what you’re doing now is great – albeit different from what I could tackle today. I still need to achieve that realism in miniature that I love to admire in others’ work.

What do I do this for – well part of it is the joy of the project undertaking.. and the sharing of the results; without this forum, I’d probably not bother – it’s you guys that have kept me going… so thanks. Hopefully I’m two steps forward and just 20 steps back… not 100 steps back.

 

Jon, thanks for your comments too… and I agree that I’m headed to a completely strip – just need to learn “how-to”. Modelstrip – not heard of that one before .. will need to look into this. Some of the paint went on a few weeks ago (the yellow), the blue this week – so various harnesses… but I guess I’ll probably have to strip right back. That unit does look nice.. although I might stick with Railmatch… I’ll bare this in mind though, thanks again.

 

Pete, thanks for the comments and yes it’s all a bit up and down at times – I think that much of that is born through frustration of not being sure what to do and tackling a task in what I think is the best way, only to find that I was wrong and that my time, material and money was wasted. RMWeb has alleviated much of that by reducing the amount of “guesses” that we need to make – however, my experience shows that I can still balls it up even with all that advice.

Thanks for the blog comments, it’s nice to read that my particular way of writing is appreciated… life’s too short to keep it dry all the time.

Oh and yes… my sons have an odd taste. Alex’s 50027 was a requested Christmas present after seeing LION in the siding at Grosmont a couple of years ago… the NSE coaches were from the model shop in Pickering at the same time. Robert has an old Lima Dutch 26 and a Southern Turbostar (171)… as we’re on the Southern network ere – albeit electrostars 377s (but you know this don’t you)… the Black 5 was acquired with birthday money – because he saw one come through Wivelsfield a year or so ago (he’s got a pin sharp memory)… and the Pannier a “surprise” late birthday present from a friend – he loves watching the connecting/coupling rods move as he crawls the trains around the track. The stock is a mixture of 2^nd hand acquisitions… plenty of old wagons in the box too. The upper level structure will be scenic hidden… and tunnel portals already test fitted – more work for Daddy!

 

James(1692) Thanks for your comments too. I will investigate modelstrip… and superstrip (can anyone else offer a comparison here?)

I’m glad that my postings have been of use… if they’ve convinced you to give this a go, then it’s been worthwhile – there will be more accurate Deltics out there.. and that’s worth the effort.

 

Will, thanks too. I might try the proper strip stuff – I suspect the paint is too hard now for anything else. Yes, the yeelow is Railmatch (¿why didn’t I stick to what I knew worked).

 

Peter, I did wonder about T-Cut – reading that Chris Pendleton had to do something similar with his 55 (in MRJ)… but there are so many lumps and bumps in areas that I couldn’t get to, that this wouldn’t work on those bits. Railmatch – yup, got that!

 

Sean, you a married man now then? Thanks for the spare body offer. I actually have two (or is it three) other bach 55s in my drawer, that I acquired for another conversion when I’d done this one – didn’t realise then how long this’d take – still… one day. Thanks for the offer though. Your DP2 was very nice; if you going to have another go… why not. If I’ve inspired you… then thanks… that means a lot.

 

I shouldn’t quite. But my problem is that I’ve no experience with strippers (er no not much of that sort either)… and whilst mention has been made of modelstrip and other and others… (microstrip seems to only take me to the evergreen stuff – plastic strips… not a paint stripper) and there’s precision superstrip… I’ve found little on internet searches (maybe I need to turn safesearch off). It is in this area that I need advice…. So if you could please provide some advice (pros/cons and where to get the stuff) if you are able, I’d be grateful.

 

Thanks… feeling a little better… Jon

Hello Jon,

 

Your Deltic is a fabulous looking model with exactly the right gap between the bogies and the body (which gives it the truly powerful look of the prototype). After all your hours of hard work I think a repaint is definitely worth considering. Maybe you could get someone else to strip the body and repaint it? If you could remove as many detailing parts as possible these could be repainted by you and added carefully to the newly painted body afterwards? Paint stripper (Nitromors) or some other paint remover (brake fluid?) will remove all the paint including the primer... plus your carefully applied detailing parts, sadly. Alternatively you could live with the "imperfect" finish. If you decide to do the latter, I think toning down the satin sheen a fair bit, aiming for a more matt look will effectively hide the appearance that you have now on the loco. The shine is highlighting the tiny pits in the paint surface. I hope it all works out!

 

Cheers

Simon

Hi Jon,

Just read this thread - I'm sure many of us have gone through this and I always fear painting as the great opportunity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, just like a certain national football team we could mention!

On paint removal, I'd be a little wary of Nitromors as I believe it can soften some plastics. I have used Precision's own product for stripping plastic with success in the past. After using any kind of stripper, it might be worth giving the model a gentle scrub in warm water with an old toothbush and a mild kitchen cleaner such as Jif, or Cif as it now is, just to make sure nothing lurks in any little corners.

I'd endorse the comment made about the merits of Railmatch - using the enamel over a good few years I've found a higher probability of success than with anything else, and a much greater tolerance of temperature and proportion to thinners variances - as you say Precision seems much more fickle on the latter although it does have a fantastic range of colours.

 

Good luck, John.

Jon, sorry to hear of your painting troubles, but glad to hear that you've decided to go down the stripping route. There is nothing worse than ruining a model with a p*ss poor paint finish, I had a similar problem with some tanks a while back, but was lucky that I didn't have to strip them completely.

 

I've also had problems with spraying Precision paints in the past, and won't use them now unless I really have to, preferring Railmatch.

 

As mentioned above, don't even think of using Nitromors, it will eat the plastic.

I don't like Pecision Paints either - the covering power always seems poor - and very much prefer Railmatch. Modelstrip will clean it off , and as someone said , even if some of the glue fails as a result , it's simply a matter of gluing the bits back - the laborious fitting and patching has been done. You've not written off your work , you've only written off 20-25% of it in terms of time

Simon, thanks.. it's important to get the loco feel right - and I'm happy that I got that bit and noting soem recent comments elsewhere - it's enhanced by sitting on a P4 ultrascale wheel set... but I'm not starting that argument.

John,... the votes are all there in favour of railmatch then - just wish I'd stuck with what I knew and didn't try this venture - cursing myself really - I'd planned to test spray a GUV in Railmatch to compare with precision - but enthusiasm got the better of me. Lesson learnt. I did think that Nitromors might be a bit much - fine on the garage door outside - but kept well out of reach of anything plastic I'd suspect.

Pugsley... thanks to you too

Ravenser - ok... so I need to do some homework - modelstrip vs superstrip.

 

I hope there will be a follow up. Time will tell.

Right now I need to deal with eldest lad's broken pokemon black cartridge for his DSi - he's a bit upset - but it's a complete mystery to me!

Jon

Hi Jon, sorry to see you in such a pickle, I'm not keen on precision paints either and found Railmatch fine, definitely no gloss painting on models tho' a satin finish is as shiny as it should get I feel. Good luck with stripping, but be prepared to lose the lot paintwise, tho the primer may hang on at least partially. Its a bit like riding a bike - if you fall off, don't delay just get back on quick, so get stuck in and get the paint off pronto, before it hardens any more!

Precision Superstrip ordered last night. Fingers, and just about everything else, crossed.

Jon

Hi Jon,

Good on you, glad to hear it's not going to beat you. I am sure it will all work out in the end and you will have a superb loco.

 

Cheers Peter.

Jon,

 

Can echo the comments of 43179 re Modelstrip - i use exactly that method and it shouldn't in my experience touch the halfords primer. then you should be able to build the model back up from there. I use Precision Paints - and i do an awful lot of painting (circa 5 locos a week!) - and never had any trouble with them. Main thing is to make sure you match thinners to the paint, i.e. Precision thinners to Precision paints. I have mixed and matched before and it can cause problems.

 

If you want any more advice drop me a PM. Good luck!

 

Andi.

Jon,

 

I'd misread your last entry - i would advise very strongly against Superstrip in this case - i only ever use it for removing factory finishes. Modelstrip is much, much better as it will just remove the enamel, discolour the etched bits but not damage them. Superstrip is good, but too abrasive for what you need in this case. Don't do it!

 

If you need any help sourcing Modelstrip let me know.

 

Thanks,

 

Andi.

Andi,

Thanks... that's a stronger vote for modelstrip then. Is there a risk of loosing my etch parts easier in the modelstrip... I've seen mentioned here - on on my related thread, that it can remove the glue too.

Now a little more confused!

J

Jon,

 

As i think 43179 mentioned its a bit hit and miss. the key difference in my experience is that modelstrip leaves on the primer, and therefore a partial protection of your etched details. Superstrip will take everything off - and is a nightmare to get all the bits of removed paintwork out of the details. In my experience you have more chance of losing the bits in superstrip than modelstrip - plus if like me you put the model covered in modelstrip in a plastic bag whilst it does its work, if any bits do come off in the modelstrip they will be in the bag! i have spent many a long hour fishing around in the more liquid superstrip trying to find detailing parts when repaints have gone awry.

 

Does that make sense?

 

A

Dear Andi, yes that does make sense. In fact I've also just ordered some modelstrip. Oh, and a tip for anyone else... when googling modelstrip, be careful... today I had cause to google engineering modifications for Vickers VC10s.... (don't ask) and learnt that it's "VC10" not "VC 10" or "VC-10". The same applies here... it's not model strip. I'm not qute sure SWMBO will believe me when I plead innocence on the some of the sites that seach found .... ahem!

Right.... ok.... so, noting that my weathering/painting/etc forum thread was leading me down the superstrip path, Andi's advice (which given the results from Cairnsroadworkbench) I will not question, points me to the more problematic modelstrip (paste)... and if this doesn't affect the halfords primer then I might be in luck. So, thanks for the clarifiction of what I didn't appreciate was a subtle point being made by Jon S (43179).

 

Now, I'm not going to rush straight into this - I need to await the postman first... but the two GUV bodies will need stripping... and as these have the same paint composition as the 55... I will try these first, one per method, and see how that goes on the paint removal. Then the 55 can be tackled and I'll have another long go at this sticking to what I am more familiar with... railmatch.

Andi, you bring up another good point... precisioin thinners... I used the howes enamel thinners (primarily for railmatch)... which I was told would do any enamel... questioned when my big tin didn't contain the same description as the original bottle - so, yes it's that important! I should have realised that too.., I didn't realise quite how much my brain switched off during the weekend!

 

So... thanks all for your help in bringing me back to sanity... and for all your visits here and comments - 22 comments on one thread - wow that's a lot, a new record for me I think.

 

Thanks also (as an asides) to my little Brov (TSH012) for getting the Deltic books to me, they arrived today... "The Last day of the Deltics" has two pics on page 91 of Nimbus in 1974 - TOPS and 4-digit headcode - one displaying 1E05 - on 2nd March - a little more than 4 weeks after my 5th birthday... that'll do - something to aim for again.

Jon... soon to embark on a bout of stripping

A brief update... on arriving home, I found that the Phoenix Precision super strip had arrived. I now have one stripped GUV. But, as Andi indicated... it's agressive. There's no paint left on the GUV at all, even the factory grey is gone - he Halfords primer didn'r stand a chance. The Precision blue came off very quickly, but the rest - yellow and primer took two hours of brushing on and scrubbing with an old toothbrush. The bottle advised 15 to 20 minutes - a little optimistic I now realise. I've also almost used a whole bottle on this one task... straining to reuse was accomplished a couple of times, but there wasn't much worth keeping. The GUV has now dried and been cleaned off with a fibreglass scratch pencil... plastic clearly affected a bit by the stripper. I hope that (as was suggested) I have more luck with modelstrip - when that arrives.

 

Andi... thanks. If it hadn't been for your advice I'd be a little upset right now. The process I used for thsi would be far too agressive for much of the Deltic to survive - it's possibly a great material to use to start a project with... but possibly not at the stage I'm at.

So... thanks

 

Oh, and correction from yesterday - original official papers all call it the VC. 10, not VC10.

Hi Jon,

 

It shouldn't have been that aggressive but I think you might have left the coach in the stripper a bit too long - i never use it for longer than 20 mins. Like i said before for factory finishes it is fine and works well in no time at all but always recommend modelstrip for enamels.

 

Now, must get back to 47790 & 47832!

 

Cheers,

 

Andi.

Andi,

Thanks again for the advice - still awaiting arrival of modelstrip, so will try than once received from wonderland models.

Noting you last comment... it's fair to state that the top blue coat did come off quite quickly... but the yellow underneath seemed very stubbon and didn't want to shift on it's own. I was using a washing up bowl within which some of the strippers was swilling around, and I was using a toothbrush to brush the stuff on and agitate it... and eventually brushing the stuff off... it took some doing and I wondered whether I wasn't doing this right. The instructions implied dipping it (didn't have enough for that) or brushing it and I felt that the description suggested that my approach was not what they intended.

Should I have just soaked it... agitated it then left it alone for a few hours?

I'll try to read up on modelstrip carefully before I try that one.

Hope the 47s went ok... I'm sure they did... your results are always quite superb.

Thanks again

Jon