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Starting with brass (and white metal)


Kelly

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I've been wanting to make a start with making brass (and white metal) kits, and theres been a lot of helpful suggestions on the forum here - thanks! - but I'm wondering if it might be better to start getting some scraps of brass sheet and try my hand soldering that rather than risking a kit for a first attempt.

 

So have a sort of shopping list forming:

  • Soldering Iron (have an 18W Antex CS) - 15W and 25W (£13 for Antex XS25 from Rapid Electronics) should cover it? or 15W overkill? any higher than 25W needed I wonder?
  • Solder - 140/188 i believe? and 70 for white metal
  • flux - phospher?
  • Brass strip
  • White metal - can you get seperate bits of it to try with?

--

Kelly

8 Comments


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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Kelly,

 

I'd have thought that your 18w iron would be a good place to start with soldering brass, provided you aren't planning to solder huge areas. On the other hand, a 25w iron could give you that little bit more 'oomph'. There are others on here more qualified than me to comment on irons. What I use is a variable temperature Antex iron, with a small dial on the handle to control the temperature.

 

I actually use the Antex iron to solder whitemetal as well, provided the bits aren't too small and/or too thin (in which case, glueing may always be the recommended course of action).

 

Carrs 145 (marketed as 'detailing solder', I believe) will actually be OK for a lot of applications (well, I use it a lot for all kinds of things, not just 'detailing', and it works just fine). The higher temperature solders do, however, allow you to make joints which will then (in theory) sustain a further, lower-temperature joint close by, using the 145.

 

You will get various suggestions for flux, but I use Carrs Green label for most applications, except whitemetal soldering, for which you need their Red label.

 

One tip when soldering brass to whitemetal is to thinly tin the brass surface first with 145 or 188 solder, then use the 70 solder to join the whitemetal to the brass.

 

Brass strip can be got from Eileens with no difficulty, or from modelshops with a 'K&S Metal Centre' or similar.

 

Bits of whitemetal are a bit more problematic if you are looking to purchase some, probably easier to ask folk on here it they could send you odd bits lurking in the bottom of their kit boxes. Many kits supply alternative parts, so after building your chosen loco etc., you are sometimes left with spare bits of whitemetal.

 

Same goes for bits of brass off-cuts - you might as well ask the good burghers of RMWeb to send you a few bits they don't need any more...

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Yep, have fun building 'sculptures' before you start on anything that costs you money.

 

For flux I would recommend 'Easyflow' or any other 'plumbers' flux. However if you don't clean it off at the end of a session the your model with go green within a couple of day. Cleaning off Easyflow is dead simple -- you just put your model in a suitable sized container and pour boiling water over it. The flux has its active ingredient dispersed in semi-liquid soap, both are water soluble, but hot waster works a whole lot better.

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On first thought it would seem like a good idea - practice on scrap, but I think you will find that once you have made a couple of joins brass-to-brass, white metal-to-white metal and (the slightly more adventurous) white metal to brass, you will rapidly get bored and wonder why you didn't just buy a kit.

 

With an etched kit, you get scrap brass in the form of the etched fret surround (certainly sufficient to "have a go"). White metal scrap is harder to find (though there is quite a bit on ebay) already made up into various items.

 

You will find that the most challenging is white metal soldering - that is because it is a quite different technique (more about filling and using the solder like a hot glue.

 

25W for brass - anything less and you will have problems or get into bad habits.

15W for white-metal but even that might not be enough for loco kits (big lumps of white metal)

 

Carrs Red flux works for both white metal and for brass. (Green is fine for brass but not very good for white metal)

 

Never lead free solder and avoid multicore (its good for electrical and track but not really for kits)

 

Spotless shiny clean metal always (don't even think about it unless it is bright), as little solder to get the job done - you will always use too much - so easy to think a little bit more won't do any harm - but remember you have to clean it up.

 

some basic tools: fine flat double cut file and an old single cut file for the white metal, wet'n'dry (finest) paper, glass fibre pen, tooth picks/wooden pegs/small block of wood (preferably hard wood)

 

Any problems just ask - there are quite a few on RMWeb who build kits every day.

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I use an Antex 15W iron - that is fine for N scale, probably not going to do the job for OO or heavyweight stuff.

 

For flux I use the BH Enterprises brass flux, failing that Carrs. I'd avoid plumbers flux like the plague - its far too strong and a pig to clean up while many of the other fluxes clean off trivially.

 

If you are going to do white metal work you really want a temperature controlled iron that can go down to low temperatures (70C or so). If you have one that also means you can later do other tricks of the trade like using a higher temperature solder to put a structure together and a lower temperature solder and iron setting to add bits on knowing that the original join won't come apart on you.

 

For white metal you want junk files and some chalk - if you chalk the file first the white metal clogs it far less. I also have an old woodworking file I keep handy for 'large adjustments' on white metal and mazak.

 

Other than that

- reasonably sharp knife for cutting out parts and also for scoring awkward fold lines

- bending bars are handy (for curves I just use random objects)

- flat nose pliers (for small bends and removing kinks)

- large blob of metal (eg a vice) for cooling stuff rapidly

- lump of plasticine (for holding awkward angles together)

- square edges on a board for doing 90° corners (easy to make)

- three or four extra arms are recommended failing that hair grips, helping hands etc can be handy as can wooden (not plastic) clothes pegs of the spring type

- and a peco track pin, for adding rivets

 

metal ruler is also useful for checking stuff without accidents and for shaping coach sides

 

Oh nearly forgot - good ventilation. Soldering fluxes are nasty stuff, rosin especially and you don't want to be breathing the fumes.

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For solder I use 188 and 145 for brass, 188 for main fabrications like frames and bodywork and 145 for adding detail parts without unsoldering close joints. Although I have used 145 for all joints in the past with care.

 

Flux is Gaugemaster 'Flux 2' which is phosphoric acid, works fine for me.

 

My iron is the standard issue (so it seems...) Antex XS25.

 

You can spend a fortune on tools like Hold and Folds and nice pliers and files and most are worth the investment if your going to spend a lot of time messing with kits, try and buy the best that you can afford as you need it. I glue strips of wet and dry to shaped lengths of 6mm square wood strip to make 'rubbing strips', perfect for a lot of cleaning up jobs. A must have tool for cleaning up joints is a 3-sided scraper, Squires and Eileens both sell them, I use the type where the scraper part is held in a collet.

 

I can't comment on soldering white metal as I always glue the stuff... well, it works for me!

 

Paul.

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Kelly,

 

I use a variable temperature iron for most of my soldering, turned right down for whitemetal. The problem with the 18W Antex is that it doesn't provide much heat so there is a risk of melting the whitemetal before it forms a joint. The secret of whitemetal soldering is "straight in - straight out".

 

There is a subtle difference between 188 and 145 solder. 188 has a low surface tension so it makes a neat joint but is no good as a filler. 145 has a high surface tension so will form big blobs and is better at filling gaps.

 

I've never got on with liquid fluxes. My favourite flux is powerflow (comes in yellow tubs). It's very good with whitemetal but it is corrosive and must be washed off immediately. If I can't clean my work immediately, and for any electrical jobs, then I'll use Fry's Fluxite.

 

Bill

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  • RMweb Gold

Before rushing out to buy another iron I would experiment with some scraps of brass. These can often be obtain from the waste bits of etched kits some traders sell then cheap at shows - club members may let you have some. Failing that tinplate is great stuff -old tins may be usefull - biscuit /cake tins often have flat bases and sides.

Best practice is to use a different iron for soldering white metal as the solders can mix on the iron if you can get replacement tips that would do.

Flux is a matter of choice I have used all sorts. I find using a phosphoric acid mix ( recipe in Ian Rice's book made up for a pal by a chemist) suits me but Frys Powerflow is good too ( I used it for plumbing) but needs more cleaning or it can cause problems with painting.

Then start with a wagon kit. in 0 gauge I would recommend starting with Conoisseur, Dragon are good too. Dragon do do some in 4mm.

Wooden clothes pegs are handy for holding bits together can be trimmed so the gripping bit is smaller.

I see you wear glasses they can help as molten solder spalshes are not good for eyes. Also ensure the romm is ventilated the fumes from flux are not particularly nice.

Somewhere to stand the iron is needed a hot iron wont do the workbench or the carpet much good. Special stands are available. A friend who takes paid commissions uses a old brick to rest the iorn in.

Have fun Don

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Yep, have fun building 'sculptures' before you start on anything that costs you money.

 

For flux I would recommend 'Easyflow' or any other 'plumbers' flux. However if you don't clean it off at the end of a session the your model with go green within a couple of day. Cleaning off Easyflow is dead simple -- you just put your model in a suitable sized container and pour boiling water over it. The flux has its active ingredient dispersed in semi-liquid soap, both are water soluble, but hot waster works a whole lot better.

 

But not a good idea to drop white metal models into boiling water, the 70 solder won't like it! sad.gif

 

I also find that a small amount of 'Easyflow' mixed with solder paste flows beautifully when using an RSU. Same warnings about washing afterwards.

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