Buffalo WorkBench

by buffalo

original page on Old RMweb

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This is the second page of the Buffalo build copied from the old RMweb

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??? posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:46 pm

Thanks for the comments on the details, Nick. I have a similar task on hold at the moment, a rake of assorted coal wagons from various north Somerset pits. Maybe you can inspire me to get on with those

I haven't completely made my mind up yet, but as Russell has a good photo of 1601 and I know it was at Bristol in 1914, then it is as good a contender as any. I'm toying with the idea of switching the tank filler and dome to represent an S2 boiler, but 1601 had an S4 between 1897 and 1911 and an S2 from 1911 to 1915. At one of those rebuilds, I would guess it would have lost its lamp sockets. Notionally, I'm aiming for around 1904-6 so nothing quite fits but then, I wouldn't be the first person to bend history a little

By the way, I ordered some of the LNWR socket lamp irons from London Road Models as recommend by Richard and Jol in your recent thread so they will go on the Buffalo as well.

Nick

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Comment posted by wagonman on Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:21 am

Nick

I've got some Buffalo allocations, but they're for 1908. I'll give the Bristol area ones in case they're of interest to anyone:

735 Trowbridge

747 Trowbridge

964 Frome

965 Wells

1180 Trowbridge

1185 Wells

1232 Wells

1253 Trowbridge

1256 Bristol

1270 Bristol

1587 Bristol

1591 Trowbridge then Frome

1601 Wells then Bristol (this numberplate produced by CGW)

1612 Bristol then Wells

1619 Trowbridge

1621 Chippenham

1625 Wells

1632 Wells

1660 Chippenham

My own model will represent the Box banker, whichever that might have been...

Richard

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Comment posted by Bertiedog on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:39 am

Nick , nice progress on The Buffalo chassis,

If you do find a chart for smaller BA from 14 down, I would be interested, I have "Machinery" handbooks, but even older editions of this engineering bible do not cover the full range of BA, too specialist for them! I will have to look on the net further, beyond the commercial sites.

From the photos it looks as if Scale Hardware are being practical and supplying nuts that are not exactly to formula for size, but the nearest practical. Tiny metric are also not listed in all the metric thread lists, as they change from what normal instrument engineering would use to Clockmakers sizes, the lists stop, often at 1mm only, not showing .8, .5, .3, .2 etc..

Unfortunately as only wristwatch makers use the super tiny stuff, it is really specialist, even beyond clockmakers suppliers like Walsh. And of course some remaining Swiss makers use their own thread standards any way, and they are not published.

Stephen

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Comment posted by pointstaken on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:45 am

In the latest issue of the "Eileen's Emporium" catalogue, 16BA screws, nuts, and taps are listed.

Dennis

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Comment posted by Bertiedog on Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:20 am

Thanks for the reference on Eileen's, Dennis, I will check them out, does not seem to be on the net, but it is also the smaller BA,( or ISO metric), sizes I need, and I have traced a full list for the smaller BA sizes from the net, see below

The Scale Hardware nuts and bolts at .5mm thread diameter would match between 19BA and 20BA, albeit with a different pitch, I used to use 20 BA for valve gear, which use to be made in steel cheesehead by Clerkenwell Screws of London.

The BA chart may be worth saving for use by RM members, as mention of beyond 16BA is very, very rare. I am considering making a miniature thread chaser to produce some of the these sizes in the future, perhaps a conversion of an old Emco Unimat lathe that's spare. At the sizes involved the follower would have to be geared about 3 to 1 to be practical at these pitches, and I would have to make the matching taps as well, not too difficult, just time consuming.

ba.jpg

(52.3 KiB)

Stephen.

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Comment posted by yachtie on Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:14 pm

I did that with one of my SEFinecast 1854s but then noticed that the rivet detail was wrong ... SEF have a 3 section saddle whereas I now needed a 5 section. I chose to ignore the problem, so bending reality (Einstein eat your heart out! )

Take care!! I thought the LRM LNWR sockets were 7mm scale not 4 I nearly fell into that trap too and continue to persevere with scraps of brass.....

Nick

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Comment posted by wagonman on Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:24 pm

As all their kits are 4mm scale I would imagine their lamp sockets are too.... It's Laurie Griffin who does the 7mm scale version!

Richard

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Comment posted by LNWRmodeller on Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:29 pm

Richard, exactly, they are 4mm.

The 7mm kits went to FourTrack many years ago and are now sold under the Dragon Models label.

Jol

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??? posted on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:12 pm

Thanks, Richard, a very useful list. Any Bristol, Frome, Trowbridge or Westbury engine would be credible for my area. Unfortunately, none of the pictures of Buffalos on the B&NS or Cam Valley branch that I know of show the engine's number.

Thanks for posting this, even if some of the sizes are imaginary. I'll know where to look next time.

Maybe not bending too much. Although the RCTS volume doesn't mention an specific examples of the S2/U3 combination, a number of 1854s were rebuilt with S2 boilers in the early 1900s when the 3-section tanks were in use. Some of these might well have received new tanks which would very likely have been of this type. On the buffalo it would also be necessary to remove the cast footsteps and add new ones in line with the tank filler.

Thanks for the reassurance, hopefully they will arrive soon...

Nick

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Comment posted by yachtie on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:19 pm

Ooops!! Now that'll teach me to learn how to read more carefully!! Guess where my next order is going to be placed?!!

Nick

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??? posted on Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:27 pm

I hope he has plenty in stock as I ordered three sets (Buffalo, Dean Goods plus spare for as yet undecided next early GWR engine)

Nick

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??? posted on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:11 am

While waiting for other bits to arrive, I've been looking at the main castings. The detail is quite good and they are very straight, unlike the first w-m kit I tried a long time ago. There is a fair bit of flash that will be easy to trim but there is a very prominent ridge along the top centre of the tank where the two halves join. This is going to need some serious filing and sanding. The line is one side of the join between mould halves. The mould line runs across the front and rear of the tanks and along the sharp bend where the tanks sides turn under. Cleaning this up will take some care, perhaps a bit of filler and a few of the trusy Archers rivet transfers as I'm fairly certain a few moulded rivets will disappear in the process.

Photos below to give an idea what I am talking about.

Nick

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Comment posted by wagonman on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:21 am

You're right, I can't find any actual numbers either, though there are several photos of Buffaloes on the B&NSR. The Bristol, Wells and Frome locos are the most likely suspects. I will dig out my B&NSR files when I return from my hols...

I have just found some more notes I took at the PRO (now National Archives), this time for engine stoppages: it seems that our friend 1601 was stopped 31 July - 2 Nov 1905 at Bristol for a General overhaul and boiler change (not recorded by RCTS as it was the same type - S4); stopped again, this time at Swindon, 22 Mar - 24 Jun 1907 for another General plus boiler change (again S4). Presumably it was repainted into the new livery at this time? That kept it going until 16 Sept 1909 when it was stopped again at Bristol for what I've recorded as 'SG' - but can't for the life of me remember what SG was unless Short General? Anyone know the answer?

Richard

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??? posted on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:14 pm

Thanks for that, Richard. Given your allocation and repair details and the fine photo in Russell, I'm now pretty certain I will build it as 1601. Any further info on the B&NS is always welcome. Enjoy your hols...

I've now soldered the boiler and tank shell together and made a start on cleaning up all those mould lines. Still needs more work, but the basic shape is there:

The smokebox door and tank fronts are going to need some fettling and filling. The next photo shows the casting resting in place. It's going to take some careful work to get it all flush and fill those gaps. From photos of the prototype, the large flat area at the front of the tanks is a very prominent feature of these engines as are the large, widely spaced rivets around the edge.

Does anyone know what the lever to the left (right in the photo) of the smokebox door is? On the prototype it appears to be controlled by a thin rod that passes vertically down to, and probably through, the footplate. It looks like a possible candidate for removal of the cast representation and replacement by a brass pin, lever and rod.

The next castings to receive attention will be those forming the bunker. Again, some flash but generally clean mouldings that will need minimal work to rectify slight offsets between the mould halves. The photo shows these with the worst of the flash removed. The bunker front has a representation of two levers linked by a cross rod. Presumably these are the rear sandbox levers? These are another candidate for replacement with separate brass fittings.

Another point to note with the bunker is that, as supplied, it represents a later type with built-up fenders above the flare. The kit also includes an etched part for the coal rails which could be used in different ways, with and without the fenders.. In my case, the fenders will have to be removed because the photo of 1601 shows her with open coal rails above the flare. Without good prototype photos, the unwary could be caught out by the possible variety of bunker patterns on these engines

I've also started looking at the brass castings for the boiler fittings. Most look fine, but the chimney is a later type. In the photo below, the supplied chimney is the brass one on the right. As you can see this is a tapered type and probably represents one of the later cast chimneys which didn't become widespread until after WW1. What I really need is something more like the one on the left. This is actually a w-m casting supplied with a Martin Finney Dean Goods. It represents the earlier variety of parallel-sided built-up chimney. I'll have to contact Colin and find out whether the Gibson part 4M735, 'GWR Buffalo/850 chimney. tall' is more appropriate or whether he had something else more suitable.

Nick

Edit: removed assertion that tapered chimney might be suitable for panniers.

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Comment posted by Miss Prism on Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:26 am

No Buffalo, saddle or belpaire, ran with a tapered chimney.

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??? posted on Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:47 am

That's what I thought, but I hadn't looked to closely at the panniers so was hedging my bets on the possibility.

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??? posted on Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:51 pm

I had a very quick email response from Colin about the chimney today. Apparently this one is 4M735, but he recognises that this is not the one we need for the saddle tanks, so is going to look into it. I've told him that there is no great hurry as I get the impression he is working flat out on other things, and I've plenty to amuse myself with before I need to fit the chimney.

Nick

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Comment posted by Knottyjohn on Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:05 am

I've just been catching up on this, Nick, looks like steady progress is being made, look foward to seeing more photos.

I think I am getting more tempted to put my name down for one of the GWR 633 class kits from Gibson, seeing the work here on your kit.

Cheers, John

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??? posted on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:38 pm

A little progress over the weekend in between gardening:

The ridge along the top of the tanks has been removed and those at the base have almost gone. All that remains to do is polishing with finer grades to get a nice smooth surface. The ends of the tanks are now quite flat and a start has been made on getting a good flush fit for the tank front and smokebox door.

At the rear, the fenders or coal plates at the top of the bunker parts were removed with a fine saw. Fitting the four parts together was straightforward after a little work to clean up the effects of minor mould misalignments on the edges. Once built, the insides of the flared parts were carefully rounded to get something like the appearance of sheet metal at the edges. Again, it is almost there but needs a little more work. The bunker will fit over the rectangular plate holding the chassis fixing nut at the rear of the footplate. The smaller plate at the front is used to align the smokebox saddle.

On the footplate, the splasher sides and tops have been added. The sides have a tab that fits into a rebate in the footplate thus making alignment straightforward. The tops are a little over-length and needed trimming after rolling to shape. A little more cleaning up of the residual solder and the footplate will be ready for the next stage.

Nick

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Comment posted by JackBlack on Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:23 am

That looks really great. You've done a really nice job, especially the splashers. The saddle tank looks really good as well. What's the chassis like?

Cheers, Nick

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??? posted on Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:36 pm

Thanks for your comments, Nick. The chassis is very basic, the only detail being the rail guards and a half-etched representation of the ashpan. No rivets, pipes, reverser levers and cranks, valvegear or other details. There is, of course, a reasonable representation of the brake gear. The frames appear in the photos of the etches at the start of the thread, and fitted into the footplate assembly in a photo about 3/4 of the way down the first page. You can also see part of them at the back in the photo below. I'll probably add some details but, with the outside frames and the saddle tank, the view between the frames is very limited. Hopefully, I'll be able to make a start on the chassis in the next couple of days.

Today's photo shows the main parts placed on the footplate to give an impression of where this is heading. Nothing here is fixed yet. I've finished cleaning up the tank/boiler assembly. A few of the cast rivets at the top centre of the tank have been lost in the process as the moulding ridge was very prominent here and couldn't be removed without damaging them. No problem, I'll just have to get the Archer's out once the primer coat is on. They will be needed anyway as the photo in Russell of 1601 shows some fairly prominent rivets in the lower middle part of each tank section.

The cab floor is sitting at the back of the mat because it will need some adjustment to make it fit. It appears to be almost 2mm too long as I discovered when trying to fit everything on the footplate with it in place.

Nick

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Comment posted by Knottyjohn on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:13 am

Just been catching up on this again, think it looks like it's coming on well in the new photo look foward to seeing some more progress John

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Comment posted by yachtie on Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:56 pm

This is looking really splendid!

I shan't be starting mine for some weeks yet but at the weekend I did a bit more to my 1854 saddles at the HobbyHolidays workshop. Amongst other things, I fitted the tank lifting rings and suddenly noticed that most classes of saddles and panniers have a complete set of 4 tank lifting rings. However, the Buffalo appears only to have had one pair, over the smokebox - as in the Gibson kit and the prototype photos in Russell etc. How on Earth did they lift the tanks off the boiler in this class - any ideas?

Nick

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Comment posted by Bertiedog on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:31 pm

I had wondered about the fact there are just front lifting rings, I assumed there must be a matching pair at the back, or a single one at the top, as three chains would have worked just as well for lifting. Maybe they lifted the back with a wooden beam under the tank edges, formed to fit over the tank as it could not pass fully under due to the boiler.

Perhaps there are ring attachment points in the cab, requiring the cab to be removed etc., first.

Stephen.

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Comment posted by Western Star on Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:09 pm

To add to the fun...

The 2021 class had saddle tanks made at Swindon and at Wolverhampton - one works provided the lifting rings with mountings which were "vertical" and the other works used fittings which were "horizontal".... unfortunately I cannot remember which was which|

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