Network Rail upgrade delayed by government

[Zomboid]

If MML is the same as it was a few years ago the stock will be cast offs replaced elsewhere by new stock. East Anglia seem to get second hand stock as well.

Pantograph trailers for 222s would seem to be the intelligent option. At least to me. Though if the whole EMT main line operation will be electric it might get something fully electric. Maybe even some 88s...

[Mike Storey]

It appears that the decision is the result of a letter from Peter Hendy to the minister, recommending that the schemes be "un-paused". Whilst MML will go ahead pretty much as planned, just later, the Trans-Pennine scheme is going for a bit more re-design to gain some further "synergies" and extra benefits, so I would suggest that the dates for that, let alone scope, are somewhat moveable right now.

 

Peter Hendy's full report is forecast to be delivered in November, with some suggesting it will be ready in October. This event suggests that, given the work already undertaken by Mark Carne since March, along much the same lines, his report is already practically written for him. As someone has already said, it is not clear yet how this deals with resource issues, although spreading the work across further years will clearly help.

 

For those of you asking what schemes would be next, there is a list of potential schemes in NR's Route Utilisation Plans and a national summary, some with potential achievement dates - take your pick! Transport for the North has already done this exercise for their new empire, with three phases of priority. If a rolling electrification programme does begin to emerge, I suggest a close look at the ability of the national grid to keep up with it - HS2 has already identified this as a key restraint to their programme. I well remember having to wait at least two years for some new sub-stations to be built and then commissioned, having allowed only nine months in the original planning (the timescale advised to us by them).

[jamie92208]

Pantograph trailers for 222s would seem to be the intelligent option. At least to me. Though if the whole EMT main line operation will be electric it might get something fully electric. Maybe even some 88s...

I believe that this was looked at a few years ago and ruled out on cost grubnds as all the trailers would have to had some substatial re wiring done to carry the traction current fro the tractin motors in themseleves and in any coaches further along the train.   The problem is that the coaches all have traction motors.  The Pendelinos were built like that so the cabling aleady exists.

 

 

Yesterday Tony Miles from Modern Railways was being interviewed on BBC Look North and he said that a lot of his sources in the DfT didn't n#know about this.  It seems to have been a political decision possibly to act as a spoiler to the other party conferences.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

If MML is the same as it was a few years ago the stock will be cast offs replaced elsewhere by new stock.  East Anglia seem to get second hand stock as well.

 

I doubt it.

 

A newly wired MML would be ideal for yet more IEP trains as the Government seeks to justify the massive amount of money they sank into designing the things. It also allows them ti provide 'new trains' to places 'outside the south east' (even if that is where most will start / end their journeys).

 

The other thing to consider is what else is there that would be suitable. Nobody is interested in building / procuring new loco hauled coaching stock for the UK - and the Mk3s are getting on these days. Yes MK4s with rebuilt 91sfrom the ECML (assuming those that will be retained by East Coast under current plans get replaced by further IEPs) are a possibility but the downsides to these is the wasted space taken up by the DVT and loco - going for a unit solution gets you roughly an extra coach worth of passengers for the same train length.

 

Finally there is the issue of diversionary routes or through workings from areas that will not get wires. A straight electric solution doesn't have the flexibility of the IEP platform which can be bi-mode with a variety of diesel power ratings.

 

As for the current Meridan stock, given there is a national shortage of trains, I'm sure that a good home could be found, Holyhead - Cardiff / Chester being one that springs to mind, thus displacing the loco haled sets and freeing up the 175s for use elsewhere.

 

Moving to the GEML, the desire is there (from ALL sides) to order new EMUs for this line as part of the new franchise. As such talk of cascades featuring say surplus class91s and MK4s (which was doing the rounds a few years ago) is extremely unlikely to happen.

[wombatofludham]

Displaced short Meridians could also provide useful capacity on EMT Liverpool-Norwich services which do get a bit full on the core section, with the longer sets possibly providing an attractive option for Cross Country to replace the HSTs giving the operator a much more uniform standardised fleet with the mechanically similar Voyagers. Whatever happens and despite the fact they will be getting into mid life by the time electrification appears I expect they will find a home very quickly.

[kenw]

 ,this will mean that bidders for the franchiese ,s will know what to order regards rolling stock.

Or complicates matters further...

The Pacers are meant to be being replaced by new diesel units. Logically with TP electrification going ahead again these new diesel units should be replaced by electrics, with the Pacers being replaced by the resulting cascades.

The delay in electrification though now leaves a two year gap between the Pacers becoming non-compliant in 2020 and the electrics coming in

[kenw]

 Yes MK4s with rebuilt 91sfrom the ECML (assuming those that will be retained by East Coast under current plans get replaced by further IEPs) are a possibility but the downsides to these is the wasted space taken up by the DVT and loco - going for a unit solution gets you roughly an extra coach worth of passengers for the same train length.

There'll be around 24 91/Mk4 sets hunting around for a new home, EC plans are to retain just 6.

Given their always poor reliability though (coaches as well as the locos), and they'll by then be 30 years old, who else would want them?

When IEP was first planned, both MML and EA where quick in saying 'no thanks'

 

The DVT does give decent luggage / cycle space on them though, something sadly lacking in most modern stock, not exactly wasted space

 

I can think of one good home for them, an island just off South Wales with strong GW connections

[Richard E]

On the question of power feeds there is a new feed being built on the ECML at Essendine in the old station/yard area taking power from the National Grid just to the west of the line. I presume this is to help with the situation that was apparent when using the Eurostar set and which possibly would arise again with the introduction of IEP.

[Mike Storey]

There'll be around 24 91/Mk4 sets hunting around for a new home, EC plans are to retain just 6.

Given their always poor reliability though (coaches as well as the locos), and they'll by then be 30 years old, who else would want them?

When IEP was first planned, both MML and EA where quick in saying 'no thanks'

 

The DVT does give decent luggage / cycle space on them though, something sadly lacking in most modern stock, not exactly wasted space

 

I can think of one good home for them, an island just off South Wales with strong GW connections

 

Maybe - I guess it will come down to the price offered by the ROSCO. I believe DVT's can now be converted to passenger carrying space if required, with some modification, following relaxation of that rule? Whilst 91's plus MkIV's will be 30 years old by then, HST's are between 40 and 33 years old already, and will be around for a while yet. 

[Edwin_m]

In my view 91+Mk4 sets would be wrong for MML and even worse for TPE.  Both are essentially middle-distance railways with most services having frequent stops and all needing acceleration to get away from the many speed restrictions.  They really need a high-acceleration 125mph EMU with a medium-distance interior, with a debate to be had on whether doors should be at the coach ends like a 444 or at one and two thirds positions.  This isn't too much of a step up from existing designs which are already being used at 110mph. 

 

It will be difficult to find a home for the Meridians as they are expensive to run and their seating density is pretty poor (though Voyagers are worse).  I believe on Liverpool-Norwich line a five-car Meridan would offer little more capacity than a 4-car 158 and would actually be slower on parts of the journey because it can't use Sprinter differential speed restrictions.  The best bet might be something like Nottingham-Cardiff or even the Chiltern line. 

[richierich]

The announcement of "un-pausing" Transpennine Electrification I'd suspect is politically motivated. However the scope of the project seems vague. If a 62 minute York - Manchester journey time is required, it's going to mean some pretty big pieces of work both West and East of Leeds to make it possible. So until that is clear, claiming completion date of 2022 might be a little premature.

 

Even more curious is what will fall out of the franchises for Transpennine and Northern. There must now be some assumptions that they will provide an electric service of some description at some point during their life?

 

Another curiosity is the rolling stock strategy?

 

The plot thickens and there is an election in 2020 just to add into the mix…

[richierich]

In my view 91+Mk4 sets would be wrong for MML and even worse for TPE.  Both are essentially middle-distance railways with most services having frequent stops and all needing acceleration to get away from the many speed restrictions.  They really need a high-acceleration 125mph EMU with a medium-distance interior, with a debate to be had on whether doors should be at the coach ends like a 444 or at one and two thirds positions.  This isn't too much of a step up from existing designs which are already being used at 110mph. 

 

It will be difficult to find a home for the Meridians as they are expensive to run and their seating density is pretty poor (though Voyagers are worse).  I believe on Liverpool-Norwich line a five-car Meridan would offer little more capacity than a 4-car 158 and would actually be slower on parts of the journey because it can't use Sprinter differential speed restrictions.  The best bet might be something like Nottingham-Cardiff or even the Chiltern line.

 

Rail vehicle crash worthiness changes quite significantly over 115mph, hence any 125mph EMUs would have a similar driving car arrangement to a Class 220/221/222 or Class 390, which would mean less capacity than say a class 350 or Class 380 EMU.

[Zomboid]

I had heard somewhere that SWT were looking for 100mph diesel stock, as 159s can get in the way of the 100mph 444/450s a bit on the run down to Basingstoke. So that might be another possible home for displaced 222s. Voyager style acceleration would help there, too.

[JeffP]

Going back to the National Grid, will we see the trains coming to a standstill in years to come when the wind dies?

[Zomboid]

No, because we have links to the continent which we already use to buy electricity. So we'll make more use of that if we can't generate enough of our own.

Whether that's a good idea is another matter, but I doubt the lights will go off, and whilst NR is the largest single consumer of electricity in the UK, it's still a drop in the ocean.

[david.hill64]

Going back to the National Grid, will we see the trains coming to a standstill in years to come when the wind dies?

Yes.

[Titan]

Seeing as electric trains already have a habit of stopping when the wind blows that would really screw things up! Wrong type of wind excuses!

[Pete Harvey]

Fir Solar panels to the roofs a bike pedals for the tunnels.

[jcm@gwr]

Why don't they put generators on board,

maybe they could be driven by, just thinking

out loud here, diesel engines......................

hang on a minute, hasn't someone tried that before?

[jamie92208]

Why don't they put generators on board,

maybe they could be driven by, just thinking

out loud here, diesel engines......................

hang on a minute, hasn't someone tried that before?

No that sounds so complicated, why not fit a suitably sized coal fired steam generator instead, couldn't you then dispense with all that complicated electrickery stuff and drive the wheels directly with the steam.

 

You never know the idea might catch on.

 

Jamie