SECAG Modular Meet - 27/6/15 - final report

[Talltim]

I think it's really a matter of semantics - understanding the difference between 'send' and 'receive' helps a lot (I think  )

Is that like 'in rear'?

[The Stationmaster]

Is that like 'in rear'?

No - nowhere near as simple   

 

The advantage (could be disadvantage?) of the Taunton modules is that you only have one train in each direction running between the two ends and in a prototypical manner (thinking of signalling) the person in advance should ideally be driving it towards them - that's why you need 'send' & 'receive' switches.  However if you're careful with rail joints the person at the sending end can also do a shunt while a train is going away.

 

I'm not sure what would happen if we worked it with DCC (not that any of the regulars have DCC equipped stock as far as I know) as you then have to replace the 'driving towards' control of a train with a 'section in rear' block system and signals in order to keep trains properly separated.  It would be interesting to know how that space (interval) separation of trains is organised on a large DCC layout?  

[Talltim]

It would be interesting to know how that space (interval) separation of trains is organised on a large DCC layout?  

I would imagine it would be no different to signalling on a DC layout, someone is signalman and the train driver have to obey the signals, but without the ability to get to a dead section/section controlled by someone else.

Signals within a module (i.e. the signalbox controlling a station) would be easy to organise, its where blocks overlap modules that you need to think about a whole extra set of standards.

On the Freemo layouts there is currently no signalling (unless someone has built a module with it since last time) At the last event I went to all trains were controlled by Train Orders and driven on sight, with someone occasionally deciding to be in charge of the interlocking (signalbox) at the main junction. It would be good to have some signalling on the mainline, but of course US signalling principles are very different to UK ones.

[markw]

I think the limit is about 4 devices ie 1 computer interface and three throttles. But different devices may need different amounts of power and long cable lengths introduce more voltage drop so there is no definitive number.

 

I made a connector with 2 sockets.

Connect the 2 centre pins between the 2 sockets (expressNet A and B)

Connect the 12v to the next two pins on one of the sockets (expressNet L and M)

Make sure the polarities are correct

Mark the sockets so you connect it the right way, don't send the 12v into the LZV100

The power supply must be a regulated one.

[Eke]

Hello!

 

Great that you have had a nice first modular meeting!

I am sure there will be many meetings in the future for you all now!

In sweden we have had meetings fore aproximatly 10 years and we are now nearly 200 active module railway entusiasts here in different scales, but mostly H0!

In UK with a bigger population and great interest for the hobby, the module hobby brobably will grow fast now when you have started!

 

About the number of Lenz throttles that the LZV100 can feed with it´s 300 mA is about 15 to 20 handsets i should think!

But normaly we use the same method as markw mentioned  above and having several of these supply sections when the layout is bigger. But it´s important that the power supply do not exceed 500 mA and as mentioned is regulated, otherwise you can have perhaps as high as 17-18 volts from an unregulated 12 v power supply att low consumption when not so many handsets is connected!

 

I think the diskusion of dcc, JMRI and wiring of booster and different throttlebuses for modular use should have a new threads of it´s own so it is easy to search answers later if you want!

Me and my friends have some experienses that we can share with you there if you want so you dont have to make our mistakes again. It´s not like wiring a small home layout.

And we can also learn from each others experienses to make our systems better and more reliable at bigger meetings in the future.

 

Greetings from Sweden / Eke

[AlanRogers]

If you do, put it up high 'nut. The signal can then travel further before bouncing from the floor. A simple IKEA IVAR cabinet will do ...

 

A simple piece of 2" x 1" will do better. It's only the router that has to be up high(er) rather than the whole rig. Two screws will usually have the router securely attached to the wood, using the wall fixing holes, and clip the cables down it's length. The height you can achieve is only restricted by three things: the ceiling in the hall, the length of your cables and the length of the piece of wood you can transport. That said, above head height is usually sufficient.

[airwimp075]

I have been following the topics of the various module builders with great interest. I would like to congratulate you all on your achievements in such a short time period. I think having a setup similar to the SECAG meet has a real place at exhibitions. It has been mentioned that scenery isnt important and i totally agree, if at an exhibition one side/corner of the hall had a modular setup with modules of various construction types and of varying levels of completeness, it would allow visitors to see first hand the construction methods and the different stages of creating you're own little railway master piece

The modular system should also be promoted as it allows those with less space to create their own layout and still run scale length trains from time to time

So, basically, continue the great work guys and hopefully ill be able to join you all one day with a module of my own, and exhibition managers, lets see some british outline modules

Jason

[PaulRhB]

I don't know to be honest the RS tower boys have done it successfully but it isn't cheap for the show as it needs a lot of people to run it intensively enough to make it interesting. You could do that with experienced one man crews and a 'Control' so it kept the action going but you need a second set of operators so people can have breaks. It's a bit like Scaleforum, there is a market for it as a specialist interest and either tagging on another hall specifically for it or including in a large show like Peterborough or Warley is viable. The Euro fremo group has done Warley and I said to Julia the problem was all their crew were tied up talking to people rather than having enough to run trains too. It doesn't require more than your typical layout really it just seems a lot if you ask for 12 operators but you have to consider they make a big layout. You need to tailor the operation to condense the laid back speed of a meet a bit but not to silly levels. The number of trains run at Armitage and Exeter would certainly have been good enough to entertain a crowd at a show.

[airwimp075]

Oh yeah, i forgot about the need to entertain the public!! Oops, looking at the photos from the day it seemed like a good mechanism to teach and enlighten. I guess if the layout included a BLT and intermediate station shunting could be happening in atleast 2 areas, but i guess exhibition managers are more aware than me of what interests people, i think I must just be easily pleased, as a modeller a well constructed scene can entertain me for a while As a non-exhibitor im not aware of funding and cost (apart from exhibition spaces are very expensive). The SECAG group, i believe, paid a small fee each for that meet, maybe a free lunch (obviously including cake) and free entry to a show maybe enough to get a hand full of interested parties to display their modules. I am, as you may guess, not really knowledgeable in this area, but id love to see this really take off like the Fremo guys seem to have managed from what ive seen on youtube.

Keep up the good work guys, i cant wait for further developments and hope it continues to grow now its a proven set of standards.

Jason

[cromptonnut]

We paid £20 each towards hall hire and refreshments, bought our own lunches, had a ride on train on-site and that left us about £9 "in the kitty" so it worked very well as far as I'm concerned.  For any similar village or school hall type of location you'd be looking to pay £200-£250 for a days hire with obviously a lot more money for larger venues (which would be offset by the larger number of attendees).

 

As you say, it was never intended as a 'public' event and it wouldn't have worked very well as one as we had lots (although a lot less than expected) of stops with things deciding not to work as planned, but we did have fun, trains ran from end to end, and we learnt a lot for next time.

[FelixM]

Hence, most Fremo meets are non-public, the general populous isn't invited

Whoever is interested in the Fremo concept of operation is codially invited. This will undoubtly apply to other modular groups as well as can be seen by the many helpful posts of Cromptonnut, especially in advance of the first SECAG modular meet.

 

The rest of your posting compares the modular concept to a task for which is have never been designed, so this isn't a fair comparison.

[cromptonnut]

Hi Felix, I wonder if perhaps Dutch_Master's post is somehow mangled in translation?

 

The way I see it is that an exhibition open to the public is one where an admission fee is charged. Generally these will be advertised well in the model press, websites, local media etc.

 

Our SECAG meet was open to any RMWeb member who wanted to join in, but the general public were not invited and the "entrance fee", for the want of a better term, was merely to cover the cost of the hall hire and sundries, rather than to make a profit (most "open to the public" shows tend to aim for a profit which helps the organising club to raise funds to keep its member subscription fees down and exist until the next show).

[FelixM]

Hi Cromptonnut,

 

I can't spot a translation mishap. Modular concepts are for the benefit of the participants and not to punters on an exhibition (the public). I count RMWebbers as possible participants whether with module or without, 'cause there is the possibilities of bringing stock, dcc equipment or anything else that may be required or is nice to have. Fremo meetings aren't any different in this respect.

 

But when it comes to exhibitions that are open to the public where it is needed to "just run trains" (which I partly disagree with, an exhibition layout whose only purpose is "Look, what trains I have got" without any operations is boring to me at least) Dutch_Master claimed operations to be boring for the majority. This is by no means always the case as it depends on a number of variables which I'd only like to mention here: Numbers of operators (the more the better), suitability of timetable to exhibition conditions (just little shunting with a few wagons, not too much but not too few as well), faster running clock operation vs sequential timetables and so on. It is to the skills (one could even say artistry) to the organiser of the modular group that will make such a venue a success.

 

However neither does focus on operation correlate with single track branch lines that have only sparse traffic nor do operating concepts please everyone, especially on mentioned exhibitions. That is absolutely okay, interests are different. Fremo is best known for it's operational principles and therefore some peoples interest naturally aren't drawn by it. But if I was at Dutch_Masters place I never would comment on something that is not for me and certainly won't allege any tales or use stick-out-tongue emoticons in a kind conversation.ere

[cromptonnut]

I am sure that, as UK modular "develops" and we have more participants, we will have a greater variety of arrangements of boards, more trains running, etc etc - but remember we are still in very early days.  Our first meet here was always intended as a 'test run' with the main aim being simply to connect boards together from different people and simply to be able to run a train, without problems, from one end to the other.  On that basis, we exceeded our expectations by an order of several magnitudes.

 

Our next challenge will be to try and set up some double track modules at our next meeting and to see if we can manage that successfully.  It may be possible to run a 'timetable' of sorts but it may be that we save that until the time after that.

 

Before our next meeting, it may well be that others decided to arrange a meet in another part of the UK - which is great, and I'm happy to offer whatever help (as is practical) and advice that may be required for someone else who wants to do so.  If I am available I may even travel to it myself and be a participant this time.

[Eke]

Hello all of you!

 

I must say that there are more than one way to run an modular meet and it´s very possible to combine the different ways!

I know at least Three ways of doing it.

 

1. The Fremo way with timetables and no invited public!

 

2. Private meetings with no timetables on the layout just for the members and their trains and no public.

 

3. Exhibitions open for the public.

 

I´m myself a Fremomember and have been to meetings both in Sweden and Germany and i like the way of how Fremo have constructed the concept with timetables for modular use!

But at these meetings there are small chances of driving your own trains if you want. A lot of people has many trains at home but small possibilities to run them as the space they have for this purpose is to small, so there is a big need of possibility for a Little more "anarchistic" way of traffic with own trains to!

And some people actually likes to participate with large modular setups att exhibitions!

 

In Sweden we have all of these ways. There are about 5-6 exhibitions every year where we are represented with our layouts, the biggest has been as large as 200-300 meters of modular length!

And there are also a lot of meetings arranged like Fremo meetings, these meetings have modules from several different standards that are more or less compatiblel with each other. Most modules are made by the Swedish MMM-standard but a lot of Fremo modules are also in the layouts. The timetables for these meetings are made the Fremo way.

Previous private meetings with the MMM-standard where mostly with time for free running of our own trains, but nowdays it´s has been more and more timetables as Fremo.

But the need for free running of own trains still exists so we have started add space for our own trains as extras in the timetabels where it´s possible, this means that you can register yourself for a train in the timetable if you want! And these extras in the timetable are always fully booked up! And beetwen the timetables there are also time for free traindriving!

 

As you understand, with a Little bit of pragmatism and respekt for other peoples need it´s very possible to have meetings for all directions of interest in the modular hobby!

I Think the nicest meetings are the ones with timetables and time for people to drive their own trains!

After a time when you know more about the people that applaying to a meeting it should be easy to construct the timetables for a good balance of the participants interests!

In an exhibition there are best to have many trains running for the show, but it´s possible to have som "timetable trains" mixed in for a Little not so serius but fun shunting here and there!

 

 

Greetings from Sweden / Eke

 

PS. My English isn´t the best and i perhaps lack some nuances in the language, but hopefully you get what i mean! 

[cromptonnut]

Hi Eke

 

Your English is definitely better than my Swedish!  I like your use of the term "anarchic" - perhaps it's not quite the word that you meant it to translate as but I think it sums up very well a great way to have fun with modular!

 

'Nut

[Glorious NSE]

Sorry - I was on holiday when this happened so i'd missed the thread until now - Well done all, glad it worked (knew it would! ) and glad you all had a great time!

Couple of thoughts:
 

The problem we had was with the connection from JMRI to the LZV100, after resetting the computer interface (XnTcp) and JMRI, although it appeared to connect ok, as soon as any command was sent the connection failed. Eventually by unplugging several throttles I was able to get it connected again.
Since returning I have been able to recreate the fault.
If I have 4 throttles connected then connect the computer interface it does not work
With only 2 two throttles connected the interface then connects and works ok
This made me think it is a power issue, so I found a 12v 1.7a power supply and used this to power the ExpressNet instead of the LZV100, this allowed the interface to work correctly when plugged in with 4 throttles allready connected

We need to try this at another meet but I think it will solve at least some of the problems we had.

As for the Multimaus, I know other people have reported problems using them with LZV100s but I have been using it for several years with my LZV100 in combination with LH90, LH100, LokMaus2, LIUSB and XnTcp and have never had any problems.

"Repowering" the long throttle bus for reliability is something we're working on as well - we had quite a few niggly faults at Exeter at Christmas, and the trouble was we couldn't start tying them down as they *might* all have been down to throttle bus power (or possibly a bad expressnet cable) - if we can get that stable then we at least rule it out!

I'm told you can feed the power in at multiple places on the bus as it grows - but you have to make sure they are all feed in the same polarity or else Very Bad Things happen! - so on ours we're pre-prepping a handful that should end up "plug-n-play".

The Multimaus **we think** pulls more power from the bus (for some reason) than a LH90/LH100 (inrush current maybe?) and so whilst it does appear to work, it does also appear to expose any weakness and doesn't appear to like being plugged/unplugged!

Something else to check is that on the Lenz the throttles AND the interface all have an ID which can be fixed, or from memory otherwise is set when they connect - is the ID of your interface duplicating one of the throttle IDs maybe?

Ref "Public" - I think at these things whilst i'd hope folk interested in finding out more and maybe getting involved would be welcome, "open to the public" at something like this isn't really the point and I agree would likely spoil things, not to mention causing a lot of additional aggro...

Paul is right we've used our modules in a "Proper Model Railway Exhibition" context before - there's big challenges in creating, manning and working something that's so, so different to the usual, so do be wary - but having said that I don't believe "Proper Model Railway Exhibitions" should be entirely about such a one dimensional approach (the "want to see lots of trains whizzing by" approach Dutch-Master mentions) - personally that doesn't reflect the varied nature of this great hobby and it's many facets and arguably does us all a disservice IMHO...

Ref folk wanting to see more - if you're in the Midlands we do have the second meet at Armitage (not far from Rugeley) coming up in September, if you can put up with the trains being 'Merrican. (Well, some will be Canadian... ) - the spec here is similar...

I've not done a plan yet, (i'm going to start harassing folk for module details in August,) but I suspect we've around 250' of modules coming. PaulRhB from up-thread here ^ should be attending with a module and he's also involved in the OO, so if you want to come, have a chinwag, (maybe a play) and see what's possible let myself or Nick Palette know - thread here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88497-freemo-2015/

[Suzie]

You can sort the Multimaus inrush current problem by making a special lead with a resistor in the 'L' wire for each Multimaus. This is when the system crashes each time you plug in a Multimaus. If that is the only problem you are seeing it is curable and powering the throttle bus independently (and adequately) will do the same. Probably best to not connect the 'L' wire at the command station if you are doing this though - you will only need 'M', 'A' and 'B'.