Kernow Model Rail Centre - Bulleid Diesel

[RFS]

Please read the captions on the pictures as the image of black silver version has been incorrectly numbered as 10203 instead of 10201 and the emblem and the shade of green is also a known issue.

 

Isn't it the other way round?  The black version is correctly numbered 10203 and it's the green version that should be 10201.

[Jamiel]

The side panels are correct for the numbers shown on each, but the end on the green example could only be for 10201 or 10202.

The locos did have minor differences/changes to the front detail, but I think that sort of thing would be more for modellers to super-detail themselves for a specific period.

The bogie detail is really nice, especially the patterns of the holes drilled in the steps and the piping around the top.

Are the large grills etched? They look that way on the green example.

[jjb1970]

Splendid to see progress on these! As an enthusiast of all things Bulleid these are far and away the diesel project of greatest interest to me.

[JSpencer]

On their website, it says people who placed orders before June 2015 will be contacted at the start of 2016, however I have not been contacted, has anyone been contacted about these?

[RFS]

On their website, it says people who placed orders before June 2015 will be contacted at the start of 2016, however I have not been contacted, has anyone been contacted about these?

 

My order was actually made on 30th December 2011 - can't believe it was that long ago!  I've not been contacted by Kernow since. 

 

The pre-order price at that time was £139.99 whereas the price on the web now is £169.99.  Not sure whether the pre-order price will be honoured, though I'll still buy the loco...

Edited March 26, 2017 by RFS

[luke_stevens]

Is there an anticipated delivery date on these please?

When I talked with Kernow Chris today about delivery dates he said July - August (17!). He also said the 4TC's are July - August (17) and the D6XX not far behind.

 

I said I'd have to choose between the Bullied and the 4TC, with the 4TC winning. I asked if they would be doing 10203 in green with the small yellow panel. He said they would be later and I said I'd have one of these (budget permitting!)

 

Luke

[No Decorum]

On their website, it says people who placed orders before June 2015 will be contacted at the start of 2016, however I have not been contacted, has anyone been contacted about these?

I asked about this when I ordered something else but the chap I spoke to didn’t know anything about it. This is pure speculation but I imagine we shall be expected to pay the new price but a credit will be offered as part compensation. That’s the way Kernow approached the problem before. It would seem reasonable to me; I don’t want Chris to make a loss on these and be unable to produce the Fell more specials. Probably the “contacted at the start of 2016” is an indication that Kernow hoped to produce these a little earlier than proved possible.

[locoholic]

My order was actually made on 30th December 2011 - can't believe it was that long ago!  I've not been contacted by Kernow since. 

 

The pre-order price at that time was £139.99 whereas the price on the web now is £169.99.  Not sure whether the pre-order price will be honoured, though I'll still buy the loco...

My order was placed in October 2011! No email from KMRC either, but there's no hurry.

[Godfrey Glyn]

My order was placed in October 2011! No email from KMRC either, but there's no hurry.

 

Clearly that order date demonstrates only a half-hearted interest in these as I see from the Kernow website that I ordered mine on 8th September 2010!  

Really looking forward to seeing these and only sorry that I couldn't get to see them at Ally Pally, like locoholic I am happy to wait until the summer for them to arrive. I wish Chris well with these, they should go like hot cakes, Pecketts and Original Merchant Navies!

 

all the best

Godfrey

[No Decorum]

Clearly that order date demonstrates only a half-hearted interest in these as I see from the Kernow website that I ordered mine on 8th September 2010!

Really looking forward to seeing these and only sorry that I couldn't get to see them at Ally Pally, like locoholic I am happy to wait until the summer for them to arrive. I wish Chris well with these, they should go like hot cakes, Pecketts and Original Merchant Navies!

 

all the best

Godfrey

So I suppose that my order (December 2012) indicates a take-it-or-leave it attitude.

 

I hope they do sell like hot cakes. That would encourage the production of more “oddballs”. Heljan created my appetite and has left me high and dry by departing into 0 scale. All of these experimental beasts are fascinating. Gas turbines? Loco with six engines? Let’s have them!

[PrestburyJack]

Apart from their numbers, are the SR black versions of 10201 and 10202 identical in appearance? And how does 10203 (again, SR black version) differ in appearance from them please? Thank you.

Edited March 28, 2017 by PrestburyJack

[Jake R]

I'm a fan of unusual prototypes, so it's great to see some progress (and if it's ready by August, it'll make a great birthday present!). I'm not really that knowledgeable about the fine details so I'll leave that to the experts, but my one small complaint would be that the engine component we can see through the windows looks very plastic-like in appearance. When the loco's weathered it won't be as much of a problem, but in pristine condition it's quite noticeable. Maybe a small square of paint on the visible portion might make it look more realistic?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Jake R

[Jake R]

Apart from their numbers, are 10201 and 10202 identical? And how does 10203 (black version) differ from them please? Thank you.

 

I'm not sure if the first two are identical, but 10203 was an improved loco finished a few years later. It was a little stronger than the others, at 2,000 hp, which brought it a little closer in power to the bigger steam engines of the day. I remember reading in Hornby Magazine that it was the first locomotive that could be classed as a Type 4 (2,000-3,000 hp) in Britain. Can anyone else help with more info?

[Clive Mortimore]

Mechanically as Jake has stated 10203 had an improved engine giving 2,000hp as apposed to 1,750 hp of the first pair.

 

Visually 10203 had all its engine room grilles the same depth, the outer grilles on 10201 and 10202 where not as deep. After being transferred to the LMR and repainted green  the first two were fitted with connecting gangways with a very ugly looking door between the windscreens.

[RFS]

Kernow's web-site (http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/111/Bulleid_Diesel) still shows 4 variations being produced, and none of them have the (rather ugly IMHO) interconnecting doors.  10201-3 in black and 10203 only in green.  The pictures of the real locos used do clearly show the difference in the outer grilles. No doubt these details will be clarified soon.

[Downer]

Does anyone know when these were painted green (preferably to the nearest month)?  Or to put it another way: how long did they last on the LMR in their original black and silver?

[JSpencer]

When I talked with Kernow Chris today about delivery dates he said July - August (17!). He also said the 4TC's are July - August (17) and the D6XX not far behind.

 

I said I'd have to choose between the Bullied and the 4TC, with the 4TC winning. I asked if they would be doing 10203 in green with the small yellow panel. He said they would be later and I said I'd have one of these (budget permitting!)

 

Luke

There is zero chance I will be able to afford the 4-TC and bullied diesels at the same time. Something will have to give.

[The Stationmaster]

Does anyone know when these were painted green (preferably to the nearest month)?  Or to put it another way: how long did they last on the LMR in their original black and silver?

 

It seems reasonable to assume that they were only painted green after the second BR emblem was introduced (unless there are undiscovered photos of them in green carrying the first emblem).  So that suggests they went into green no earlier than February/March 1957.

[rembrow]

There has been an update on Kernows site for this project. They have clarified some of the issues raised here

 

1. The factory in producing the livery samples, had not used the correct body prototypes

2. The tooling has been produced with the option of making versions with connecting doors, but these may be offered in the future, so models of 10201 and 10202 in black will have the original fronts without doors

3. The current proposed models will be produced in two batches, the first will be 10201 and 10202, followed by the two livery versions of 10203.

 

this clarifies things. They have also removed the price increase info on pre orders and now advise that a decision will be made nearer production.

So, the tooling option for 10201 and 10202 in green with doors is built in, but I assume the decision to make that option will depend on sales of the first versions.

It's worth reading the new info.

[Dunsignalling]

There has been an update on Kernows site for this project. They have clarified some of the issues raised here

 

1. The factory in producing the livery samples, had not used the correct body prototypes

2. The tooling has been produced with the option of making versions with connecting doors, but these may be offered in the future, so models of 10201 and 10202 in black will have the original fronts without doors

3. The current proposed models will be produced in two batches, the first will be 10201 and 10202, followed by the two livery versions of 10203.

 

this clarifies things. They have also removed the price increase info on pre orders and now advise that a decision will be made nearer production.

So, the tooling option for 10201 and 10202 in green with doors is built in, but I assume the decision to make that option will depend on sales of the first versions.

It's worth reading the new info.

Am I correct in thinking that the connecting doors were not fitted to 10201/2 until after transfer to the LMR?

 

If so, my finances are going to take something of a pasting for three black locos, not just the 10203 I have on pre-order............

 

John

[rembrow]

If I'm correct, the connecting doors were fitted after transfer to the LMR, as their main diagram was to work double headed on the Royal Scot, similar to their cousins 10000 and 10001, which had connecting doors for their double headed diagrams. 10203, having the higher output diesel, worked as a solo engine

[lochlongside]

Does anyone know when these were painted green (preferably to the nearest month)?  Or to put it another way: how long did they last on the LMR in their original black and silver?

Livery - No-one else so far answered this so in with both feet here to encourage cognoscenti - Inclined to agree (but well open to correction) - doing an online search found photos by David Hey of 10201/2 in green no YP (late emblem?) implied date Feb 57and 10203 in green no yp  late logo in May 57 in website Warwickshire railways.

Further found photo of 10201 double-heading at Carlisle 17/01/57  (Marsden-Fenn-BR mainline Diesel locos p43) looks to be in green poss'y late emblem but and with a relatively clean roof (i.e. definitely light paint not 100% filthy black - does this indicate recent repaint??)).  

Correlate this to repainting of 10000 and 10001 - (online sources of how I originally put that info together now misplaced !!) the LMS locos both appear to have gone into green o/bl/o lining around Aug/Sep 1956. According to GrahamMuz the Bulleids 10201/2 went to LMR in Apr 55 and 10203 in July 55 when they got twin airhorns so until someone finds some better photo it would appear reasonable to assume they were repainted shortly after the ex-LMS ones. (My assumption!!).

 

Referring back to doors in Marsden-Fenn book – 10202 did not have them when painted in black on 17 June 1954 at Herne Hill.

Double-headed 10201? did have them whilst in green on Royal Scot on 17/01/57

 

It currently looks like for an indeterminate period around later 55/early 56 it might have been possible to see all 5 diesels in black on the LMR but no evidence for this  (Just wishful thinking ---OMG not rule 1 again sooo tedious the number of times  already invoked it!!)and g_d knows when doors were added!!

 

I look forward to corrections/additions with interest (and humility naturally !!) as I too am wrestling with which combinations (of locos !!) to buy, and hearing that yet more variations are due makes the purchase choice even worse!

[John Tomlinson]

In the interests of completeness, we need to clarify what we mean by front doors.

 

I'm looking at a picture of 10201 almost complete in Ashford Works in 1950. This has a front door which is open and hinges on the left as you face the loco. The reference is the KRB publication "A Lifetime in Traction" by Arthur Tayler, page 26 lower. The door is a flush fit and quite hard to discern on subsequent operational pictures. What isn't there, nor on any SR shots I've seen, are the gangway connections that appear when the locos are on the LMR, as included on Jamiel's model in #19.

 

It's worth pointing out that pictures of the locos on key workings on the SR such as the "Atlantic Coast Express" and the "Golden Arrow" seem all to be single headed, implying that the SR had no need for double heading on even these substantial trains.

 

In respect of the BR crest, I'm very inclined to agree with Clive Mortimore that the green livery was only with the later style emblem. It isn't however entirely impossible, as the adoption of lined green did preceed the change to late crest, for example the first EM2 electric 27000 carried the lined green/ early crest combination in 1956, and this is documented in photographs. See for example IA's BR Fleet Survey part 6, page 33.

 

John.

Edited March 30, 2017 by John Tomlinson

[Holmesfeldian]

My modelling interest is Derbyshire and I have seen at least one photo of these machines in the Peak District (Millers Dale).

 

The BR Loco Dataabase site confirms that 10202 was delivered new to 17A (Derby) where it was shedded for 6 about months before heading to the Southern.

 

If this was indeed the cae and neither 10201 nor 10203 made it up to Derby for testing or whatever, can anyone suggest what trains 10202 would have worked on a regular basis? I've never seen any evidence of it reaching St. Pancras so maybe it ws just test workings and Derby to Manchester stoppers.

 

ANy suggestions welcome.

 

And I look forward to buying 10202 from Kernow in due course !

[Ian Hargrave]

In the interests of completeness, we need to clarify what we mean by front doors.

 

I'm looking at a picture of 10201 almost complete in Ashford Works in 1950. This has a front door which is open and hinges on the left as you face the loco. The reference is the KRB publication "A Lifetime in Traction" by Arthur Tayler, page 26 lower. The door is a flush fit and quite hard to discern on subsequent operational pictures. What isn't there, nor on any SR shots I've seen, are the gangway connections that appear when the locos are on the LMR, as included on Jamiel's model in #19.

 

It's worth pointing out that pictures of the locos on key workings on the SR such as the "Atlantic Coast Express" and the "Golden Arrow" seem all to be single headed, implying that the SR had no need for double heading on even these substantial trains.

 

In respect of the BR crest, I'm very inclined to agree with Clive Mortimore that the green livery was only with the later style emblem. It isn't however entirely impossible, as the adoption of lined green did preceed the change to late crest, for example the first EM2 electric 27000 carried the lined green/ early crest combination in 1956, and this is documented in photographs. See for example IA's BR Fleet Survey part 6, page 33.

 

John.

Whist operating on the SR between 1951 and 1954,their Derby built cousins 10000 and 10001 worked singly too and they were nominally rated at a lower power output. On transfer to the LMR later the Bullied trio normally worked singly....one Camden turn being a morning Euston - Wolverhampton round trip frequently worked by all five diesel pioneers in the mid 50's.