RTR pre-grouping?

[Jenny Emily]

One of the areas that has really interested me over the years has been the pre-grouping era. Unfortunately, it is very poorly catered for in the RTR stakes. I've bought a few locomotives over the years (which contrast greatly with my usual love of BR blue TOPS period!), but aside from LB&SCR terriers in golden ochre, supply seems to be limited.

 

Hornby have certainly been the better of the manufacturers releasing a few specials, but it is rolling stock that seems extremely hard to come by. So far all I have found is an LSWR gunpowder wagon produced by Dapol a few years ago, and I'm not convinced it's any more than an LSWR paint job on a big four era wagon.

 

I can only find a couple of Bachmann items that were pre-grouping, and even then it is my faded memory of a presentation case with two N class locos in, one in SECR livery so I could be wrong. I think there was also a Jinty in Somerset and Dorset livery?

 

What is there available for those of us who shy away from locomotive and rolling stock kits, and is there really little market for pre-grouping RTR stock? I say this, because it seems it would be the only reason that manufacturers would not bother with it.

[Kenton]

because it seems it would be the only reason that manufacturers would not bother with it.

You only have to look at what the manufacturer's define as "eras" to see their mind set.

Covering the best part of 100 years of railway history in a couple of their first eras.

Is is just another chicken and egg situation. Avid and period focused "modelers" are only a small proportion of the market. Possibly the greatest part being taken up by the train set devotee. Then the early period an even smaller proportion of those.

You only have to be around these parts for a short while to see that the majority on here are modellers in the "modern" eras, BR and diesel. Now is that just because that is all that's available RTR? or, are there more subtle influences of childhood and memories, or simply the availability of reference good material.

 

To be fair to the RTR manufacturer. If an example of the prototype still exists in a museum or running it is a far easier/cheaper model to make in the detail demanded by the customer. Next best would be good photographic records. But how many of the early locomotives fall in those categories?

[Jenny Emily]

There are a few models that exist from manufacturers that are of pre-grouping designs, whcih don't seem to be readily available in pre-grouping liveries. Whilst Hornby has made the most of the colourful liveries of the LB&SCR terriers, the same isn't readily true of a few other of their models. Occasionally I've seen some limited edition specials, but these tend to be expensive, and still lack any stock to run with. Take the L&Y pug - only Dapol ever released it in original L&Y livery.

 

Would models such as the Super D from Bachmann be able to represent themselves in pre-grouping colours, or do they have too many noticeable modifications from LMS days? I for one would certainly be interested to see this model appear in LNWR livery. The NRM City of Truro model has shown what can be produced so would this model be easily adaptable to represent other members of the class, going right back to pre-grouping days? Would Bachmann be able to use the moulds for this, or would there be some kind of agreement with the NRM that would prevent this?

 

I always got the impression that BR era steam and to a lesser extent big four companies were the most popular. It is certainly the case in frieght rolling stock that people modelling late 1970s/early 1980s periods such as I normally do have had to really do a lot of looking around to find suitable liveried models.

 

Another under represented area is industrial liveries. Again, it is Hornby who have tested this market with the Hunslet Austerities. However, other than a GWR Pannier in Stephenson Clarke livery from Bachmann, I've not seen any others RTR. A big surprise given that some of their models like the 04 shunter lasted longer in industrial use in many cases than in BR use, yet all we have is a wealth of BR liveries suitable for 1950s/60s and very early 1970s. I would be interested to see a model appear in the livery used by Ford at Dagenham, or indeed any other industrial user.

[JohnR]

I think par tof the problem is the lack of models which could appear in pre-group livery. The M7 could, but (royal train apart) the T9 can't as it was super heated. Most of the models out there are grouping or BR designs.

 

Of course, thats part of the business case for suggesting a new model - the greater number of liveries possible, and if you can get a pre-group livery, along with a couple of group liveries and both types of BR crest, then you've got the most out of it, but is there any point in a pre-group livery if there isnt anythign for it to pull?

[Kenton]

Ha! Industrials ... in any era, a whole new can of worms to explore. But once again I think it is back to memories and childhood influencing modelling - especially the new modeller. The number of us who can remember pre-grouping steam are extremely few if any, even having tales of our father's, those with experience of Grouping and even BR are fading (along with some of the memories). To most starting out now, even BR Blue is well beyond living history although the photographic nostalgia is there well in evidence.

But what about industrials - comparatively little record, possibly due to access, and very little around now to be sought out. Again, I think the manufacturers take the easy route, and I cannot blame them, selling another BR (something common and available class) or yet another variation of a Class 37/45/60/... is bound to bring in more profit for little additional investment risk. Especially if that model has already run the gamut of the rivet counters and the more picky of the modeller class.

[Jenny Emily]

I think par tof the problem is the lack of models which could appear in pre-group livery. The M7 could, but (royal train apart) the T9 can't as it was super heated. Most of the models out there are grouping or BR designs.

 

Of course, thats part of the business case for suggesting a new model - the greater number of liveries possible, and if you can get a pre-group livery, along with a couple of group liveries and both types of BR crest, then you've got the most out of it, but is there any point in a pre-group livery if there isnt anythign for it to pull?

 

On the subject of detail differences, as the real locos were modified over time, I would have thought that a similar method to that used by Bachmann to have different variants in the same model (just like the 25s, 08s and 37s) could be employed. However, that then takes us back to whether there would be demand for the pre-grouping liveries to justify the cost of tooling variants.

 

That said, pre-grouping stock did persist up into BR days, so the rolling stock could certainly have several liveries it could be produced in. I do however have in my head the image of some-one in the marketing department of model companies screaming: "I keep telling people there's no demand for it!"

[Kenton]

but is there any point in a pre-group livery if there isnt anythign for it to pull?

Catch 22

[Jenny Emily]

 

But what about industrials - comparatively little record, possibly due to access, and very little around now to be sought out. Again, I think the manufacturers take the easy route, and I cannot blame them, selling another BR (something common and available class) or yet another variation of a Class 37/45/60/... is bound to bring in more profit for little additional investment risk. Especially if that model has already run the gamut of the rivet counters and the more picky of the modeller class.

 

Certainly in the steam era, but more recently, I think a lot of industrials are better recorded, especially diesel shunters. Whilst I would love to see models of something like a Sentinal (of the diesel variety) I think more likely might be an 04 in NCB, British Steel or Ford livery. There are plenty of photographs around, and some of these lasted to the 1990s.

 

From my point of view, I'm 30, and my only memory of steam locomotives aside from preserved lines (where pre-grouping liveries do feature incidentally) was a handful of Hunslet Austerities with the coal board and the locos at (IIRC) Donnington power station. I do, however, remember NCB liveried 03/04 shunters during my childhood in the Swansea Valleys, as well as some of the locos that shunted Trafford Park. I also have an early memory of wagons being shunted at Metal Box in Westhoughton, but I cannot recal anything other than the sorry looking vans and the squeal of flanges on the tight curves. This doesn't mean that I'm completely disinterested in anything I didn't experience first hand. True, I have a leaning towards modelling BR blue TOPS era, but not exclusively.

[Captain Kernow]

As Kenton has said, it really is a Catch 22 situation, or even worse, Catch 22 chickens and eggs...

 

I think that the recent expansion of Hornby into the Southern market has created it's own demand for products, that wasn't necessarily there before. Sure, there have always been Southern modellers, but I think that the existence of the Q1, T9, M7 etc. has now created a new market for Southern models/layouts.

 

As such, I'd be willing to bet that the right choice of a few pre-Grouping models (especially if they did survive into BR days), would be a sure-fire winner, resulting in many folk going out and buying these models. The creation of pre-Grouping R-T-R models would, I feel sure, trigger a number of pre-Grouping layouts that wouldn't otherwise have been built.

 

Think, for example, how lovely a SE&CR 'H' Class 0-4-4 would be in fully lined out SE&CR green, together with coaches to go with it...

 

In many ways, if the R-T-R manufacturers can do the ornate pre-grouping liveries that some companies adopted by their clever new printing processes, that's a major hurdle for many of us overcome already.

 

As regards industrials, I think that the Model Rail/Dapol Sentinel is a very welcome development, but hopefully it won't stop there. Think of the almost infinite variety of industrial liveries that you could apply to (for example) a Peckett or Andrew Barclay model, which would appeal to the 'collector market'.

[Nick Holliday]

I wonder if part of the problem is the sheer diversity of pre-grouping stock. There were over twenty major companies, let alone the dozens of minor ones, and each tended to have distinctive styles regarding, for example, coaches, most actually going through three or four phases of design. These days it would not be acceptable to pass off, LBSCR balloon stock as, say, LNWR; no-one would accept the compromise. Triang-Hornby had a go when the venerable GWR clerestory coaches appeared as non-descript LNER ones, but I don’t know how they sold.

The next problem is that in pre-grouping days the stock generally stayed very much on home territory, so it becomes slightly difficult justifying foreign stock unless your chosen location allows it. Admittedly, after grouping there was a bit more interchange, but still many items never left their original company’s metals. So a beautifully made RTR model of a Maryport & Carlisle Railway six wheel third would only have a market within a small percentage of pregrouping modellers, who themselves represent only a small proportion of the modellers who work in that scale.

Goods stock is a different matter, as it was possible to see odd examples from all lines at some time or another and it is very difficult to see why the mainstream manufacturers haven’t turned their attention on this deep vein. However, there seem to be plenty of BR types that haven’t been produced yet, and these probably appear to be a better investment, and then there’s the Big Four catalogue, before thinking about pre-grouping. Still, the ex-Airfix and now Hornby G & H Siphons are pre-grouping, and there was the Hull & Barnsley van!

With regard to other comments, the Bachmann ex-LNWR 0-8-0 is, I believe, modelled with the Belpaire firebox, which was only fitted after grouping, so that would need changing before a truly authentic LNWR version could be produced, and the S&DJR Jinty, although painted in a pre-grouping livery, only actually appeared some years after grouping took place, the S&DJR’s status as a joint company delayed its absorption into its owning companies until the 1930’s.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Jenny,

Unfortunately, you are interested in one of the periods/eras/regions that the British manufacturers have closed their minds to.

It always seems to me (& i could be wrong of course, not having been alive back then!) that when British 00 manufacturing got properly started back in the 1930's - they focused on the "Modern image" of the day: the big glamour pacifics of the LMS & LNER etc, anything else was just a supporting act. One has to admit, it WAS a glamourous era with regard to streamliners, record breaking etc!

Then, post WW2 and into the fifties & sixties, the manufacturers could look back at the "glory days" of the thirties and try and recreate them, while also keeping up with the "modern image" i.e. the "Standards" and the early diesels - which were the "glamour" trains of their day - witness the Bl** Pu**m*n.

So there you have it; "modern image" and "glamour" - by-words for "selling power", shift as many boxes as you can - most will end up under people beds or in the attic anyway and bu66er the "modeller", he can always build a kit or two!

With that attitude (i think!) the British manufacurer/s simply didn't care about "modellers" at all - IN THOSE DAYS (very different now, of course!) and therefore completely ignored the fact that there was a whole world of "glamour" "action" & "interest" that pre-dated the 1930's, by which i mean pre-group, of course. Only recently have the British manufacturers started taking notice of "modellers" and only since then have the more "interesting" models started coming out - i might predict that in the next ten or so years, a lot more pre-group items will be appearing.

I might contrast this story with the situation in Germany.

Germany was always a nation where "toymaking" was quite highly regarded, especially animated toys. Hence when railways came along, it was a perfect opportunity to build better animated "toys" or "models" as they became known. Being Germany, where an engineer is as revered as a doctor is in the UK, they had to start making their models as accurate as possible AND they were based upon the trains of the day: what we would call pre-group!

Fast forward to the sixties when we were getting stuck into a couple of timeframes and the German manufacturers, catering for "modellers" were producing models suitable for all eras and that is still the situation today;

In German outline, if you wish you can build up a lovely collection of rolling stock from the turn of the century (1900!) and you get, locos, coaches, wagons etc (i have done just that!). It has only got better in Germany (for "pre-group" modellers) as you can now get items for almost all the early German railways, it used to be just Bavarian and Prussian but that was good enough!

So, in conclusion, i blame national attitudes!

The British for always sneering at "playing with toy trains" and the Germans for appreciating fine model making!!!

Sorry for this rather long winded narrative that is full of my own conjecture but thats how i see it.

At least i forecast an improvement in the future!?!

Cheers,

John E.

[Invicta]

I wonder if part of the problem is the sheer diversity of pre-grouping stock. There were over twenty major companies, let alone the dozens of minor ones, and each tended to have distinctive styles regarding, for example, coaches, most actually going through three or four phases of design. These days it would not be acceptable to pass off, LBSCR balloon stock as, say, LNWR; no-one would accept the compromise. Triang-Hornby had a go when the venerable GWR clerestory coaches appeared as non-descript LNER ones, but I don’t know how they sold.

The next problem is that in pre-grouping days the stock generally stayed very much on home territory, so it becomes slightly difficult justifying foreign stock unless your chosen location allows it. Admittedly, after grouping there was a bit more interchange, but still many items never left their original company’s metals. So a beautifully made RTR model of a Maryport & Carlisle Railway six wheel third would only have a market within a small percentage of pregrouping modellers, who themselves represent only a small proportion of the modellers who work in that scale.

Goods stock is a different matter, as it was possible to see odd examples from all lines at some time or another and it is very difficult to see why the mainstream manufacturers haven’t turned their attention on this deep vein. However, there seem to be plenty of BR types that haven’t been produced yet, and these probably appear to be a better investment, and then there’s the Big Four catalogue, before thinking about pre-grouping. Still, the ex-Airfix and now Hornby G & H Siphons are pre-grouping, and there was the Hull & Barnsley van!

With regard to other comments, the Bachmann ex-LNWR 0-8-0 is, I believe, modelled with the Belpaire firebox, which was only fitted after grouping, so that would need changing before a truly authentic LNWR version could be produced, and the S&DJR Jinty, although painted in a pre-grouping livery, only actually appeared some years after grouping took place, the S&DJR’s status as a joint company delayed its absorption into its owning companies until the 1930’s.

 

I think there's a lot in what you're saying here- I can't see there being much demand for RTR Maryport & Carlisle stock either, but equally, if you wanted RTR Maryport & Carlisle stock, then North Stafford or Furness stock given a quick repaint isn't going to cut the mustard (incidentally, Hornby tried this trick with their later GWR clerestories in the 80's, as well as Triang doing it with the originals- the later coaches were released at one point in Midland livery to match the Compound).

 

If there's any mileage in producing pre-grouping stock RTR, then I think we need to be looking initally at stock from the bigger pre-grouping companies, which may have been seen over a wider area, and more importantly, it needs to be the longer-lasting locos/coaches that survived well into the BR era, although then you get into the problem of later modifications (ie the Belpaire firebox on the G2 or superheated T9 already mentioned) which make it impossible to reproduce the loco accurately in both pre-group and later forms. Incidentally, Hornby produced the GWR 'County' 4-4-0, a type withdrawn from service in the mid-30s I think, as part of their quartet of 4-4-0s (GWR County, Midland Compound, Schools, LNER D49) in the late 70's/early 80s. Anyone know how it sold?

 

Would there be any mileage in a similar exercise to the LNER/ER andScottish loco threads, identifying locos which fit those criteria- long-lasting (say still around in reasonable numbers by 1960), relatively un-rebuilt from their original form, and reasonably-widespread in use.

 

I think another issue that might affect the availability of RTR pre-grouping stock is the recent trend for dealer or magazine-commisioned limited editions. Can you imagine Bachmann Hornby or Dapol ever looking at the Beattie Well Tank unless Kernow had commisioned it? and if the Beattie sells, then what price an Adams Radial to follow it?

[Captain Kernow]

my faded memory of a presentation case with two N class locos in, one in SECR livery so I could be wrong

This was done by Bachmann in the mid-1990s in a nice wooden case with the two 'N's in it, both without smoke deflectors, one in Southern Railway lined olive green livery, and the other in SE&CR WW1 Grey livery.

[Jenny Emily]

...

I think another issue that might affect the availability of RTR pre-grouping stock is the recent trend for dealer or magazine-commisioned limited editions. Can you imagine Bachmann Hornby or Dapol ever looking at the Beattie Well Tank unless Kernow had commisioned it? and if the Beattie sells, then what price an Adams Radial to follow it?

 

Oooo, now there's something I'd forgotten about. How much did the Beattie well tanks change over the years? Do Kernow have the option of releasing it in Southern livery, or pre-grouping (LSWR?)?

 

As for wagons, I seem to recal that some Great Central origin vans and opens lasted into BR ownership, and doubtless others did too. These might be the best wagons for manufacturers to test the waters with, as the model can be released in BR or big four livery in addition to pre-grouping ones. As an aside, how many of the colourful private owner wagons that Bachmann produce would have been seen in pre-grouping days? Any? Or are they a post 1923 wagon design?

[Invicta]

Oooo, now there's something I'd forgotten about. How much did the Beattie well tanks change over the years? Do Kernow have the option of releasing it in Southern livery, or pre-grouping (LSWR?)?

 

As for wagons, I seem to recal that some Great Central origin vans and opens lasted into BR ownership, and doubtless others did too. These might be the best wagons for manufacturers to test the waters with, as the model can be released in BR or big four livery in addition to pre-grouping ones. As an aside, how many of the colourful private owner wagons that Bachmann produce would have been seen in pre-grouping days? Any? Or are they a post 1923 wagon design?

 

I think Bachmann's PO coal wagons are the RCH 1923 design- Some of the PO wagons in the Hornby catalogue (things like the 3 and 6-plank wagons offered a few years back) look more pre-grouping era- Certainly I think some of the liveries offered by both over the years are of pre-1923 origin

[Jenny Emily]

I think Bachmann's PO coal wagons are the RCH 1923 design- Some of the PO wagons in the Hornby catalogue (things like the 3 and 6-plank wagons offered a few years back) look more pre-grouping era- Certainly I think some of the liveries offered by both over the years are of pre-1923 origin

 

Would I be right in thinking that the RCH 1923 design was based upon a previous wagon design with a few modifications? In 00 would any minor variances (in, for example, brake rigging or axleboxes) be all that obvious? The Bachmann Blue Ribon wagons do have a cunning design that allows different configurations of brake rigging at the very least.

 

As for vans, LNER has been poorly represented so far by Bachmann, and maybe an ex-GC design would fit the bill if it was one that lasted through into BR days? Their range of LNER wagons is certainly thin on the ground (thanks, Bachmann, for the two brake vans, but something more than a single seven plank open and a single three plank with container to run with them and all the LNER liveried locos would be nice)

[Adrian Wintle]

I think Bachmann's PO coal wagons are the RCH 1923 design- Some of the PO wagons in the Hornby catalogue (things like the 3 and 6-plank wagons offered a few years back) look more pre-grouping era- Certainly I think some of the liveries offered by both over the years are of pre-1923 origin

 

A lot of the PO liveries are actually pre-grouping, even if the stock they are on isn't.

 

There are a fair number of pre-grouping GWR items available:

 

Hornby/Triang Dean Single

Hornby/Dapol/Mainline Dean Goods

Hornby County 4-4-0*

Hornby 28xx*

Hornby long (gangwayed) clerestories

Hornby/Triang short clerestories**

Bachmann City of Truro*

Hornby 2721 Pannier Tank

 

*in post grouping specification

**don't match any known diagram

 

Adrian

[bike2steam]

Supply, and demand I suppose, if there was money to be made a manufacturer would be there. Look at this forum, ( I know it's not typical of the hobby as a whole) I'd say the majority are post steam modellers, which makes pre-grouping less likely.

But there again, I wonder how many pre-grouping layouts will we see the new Hornby LSWR T9 on eh ??

[298]

A lot of the PO liveries are actually pre-grouping, even if the stock they are on isn't.

 

There are a fair number of pre-grouping GWR items available:

 

Hornby/Triang Dean Single

Hornby/Dapol/Mainline Dean Goods

Hornby County 4-4-0*

Hornby 28xx*

Hornby long (gangwayed) clerestories

Hornby/Triang short clerestories**

Bachmann City of Truro*

Hornby 2721 Pannier Tank

 

*in post grouping specification

**don't match any known diagram

 

Adrian

 

Plus the Bachmann 43xx....

 

Looking at the list, apart from the City which is new, most of the models have been around for 20+ years so it's not as if they're to modern standards or recent additions. I think once the popular classes have been cherry picked, manufacturers will have to resort to producing lesser items such as pre-grouping, overhead electrics & EMU's. Just as long as they can find cheaper production methods or prove the market can stand higher RRP's.

[pete_mcfarlane]

There are a fair number of pre-grouping GWR items available:

 

Hornby/Triang Dean Single

Hornby/Dapol/Mainline Dean Goods

Hornby County 4-4-0*

Hornby 28xx*

Hornby long (gangwayed) clerestories

Hornby/Triang short clerestories**

Bachmann City of Truro*

Hornby 2721 Pannier Tank

Plus the oil burning O-4-0t. I think this originally came out in GWR green before they started doing it up as a pretend industrial.

 

I thought a fair amount of pre-group stuff had come out down the years from Hornby. Caledonian single and pug, various 0-6-0Ts (J83, J52, LBSC E2), Midland Compound, the GWR stuff already mentioned and even the A1 is a pre-grouping design. And then there's the Mainline J72 and N2 as well.

 

Bottom line is that the further back in time you want to model, the more kit and sratchbuilding you have to do.

[Adrian Wintle]

Plus the Bachmann 43xx....

 

 

forgot that one and the Bachmann 45xx (again in post-grouping spec)

 

The Hornby 28xx is being replaced with a brand new model...

 

There was the old Hornby Saint, too (the less said about that, the better)

 

Adrian

[edcayton]

CR pug and 123, NB 0-6-0T (J83?), NER J72, MR 3F tank and tender, 4F, 2P, Compound, GNR J52, N2, K3 (needs new cab), "Great Northern"-almost! I'm thinking maybe Carlisle/York/Cambridge?

 

Ed

[Adams442T]

Most of the locos that would be pre-group possibilities are now not really up to modern standards anyway. Never quite sure whether the 'Dean Single' and 'Caledonian Single' are so long lived because they are so poor that that Hornby are still trying to get their money back on them.

 

Certainly though the LSWR M7 done recently was very nice and I am presently converting a T9 from BR to LSWR without too much trouble. The LNWR earlier G classes are a problem because of the great lump of metal lurking under the G2a Belpaire firebox.

 

They may surprise us and have built in mould flexibilty to enable earlier versions to be produced later but I'm not holding my breath. If the late running livery versions of Truro and T9 'LSWRs' sell well though will they even bother?

[Hammer]

I think the lack of pre-grouping locos comes down to one simple thing: there are just too many. The majority of these would have been scrapped long before the BR era, leaving maybe two or three possible liveries, but (big but) as a few hours spent looking at the D-classes and J-classes which the LNER inherited, they were confined to quite narrow areas during their lives which reduces the number of modellers who will potentially buy them.

 

I've also heard that there are some problems accurately recreating some of the pre-grouping liveries simply because no livery guides from the company remain and there are no colour photos. Maybe a bit rivet counter-y, but I'm sure it would put some people off.

 

On the other hand, it'll be interesting to see how Kernow's Beattie Well Tank fairs. If it does well, maybe Hornby and Bachmann will look at doing some off their own back. Maybe something Scottish since we've been asking them for it for years now!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

One factor operating in favour of a little more in the way of pre-grouping prototype appearing RTR, is that the major locomotive classes introduced in the grouping and BR steam era are near mined out. Few more of both express passenger locos and heavy goods types for a start: and we are getting both the ROD and 28XX this year, very significant pre-group freight power. The Scottish loco consensus thread was focussed on pre-group types, as the essential character items which unequivocally set a layout on a particular pre-group company's territory.

 

As the OP observed, it's the accompanying rolling stock that needs some attention. A good choice ISTM would be some pre-grouping non-corridor stock of the sort that finished its' working life cascaded into secondary and branchline services, and hung on well into the the BR steam era. Ideally stock built in large quantity and subsequently widely deployed, and if possible to a fairly common style so that it could be repainted into liveries it never actually carried and still look credible. Bain designs are one thought that comes to mind, since he was a very influential designer, and the MR as one of the larger pre-group systems had a lot of stock.