Gold train found?

[EddieB]

To me the story is feasible.  Breslau (as was) was an important regional centre and an industrial hub.  Tunnels were certainly constructed around Walbrzych (Waldenburg) and one has to conject their intended purpose.  After Stalingrad and Kursk, the Russian intention (supported by Eisenhower holding back on the Western Front) was to push towards Berlin as quickly as possible.  Silesia would have been a side-show, so hiding valuable assets there might make some sense.

 

However given a history of tall stories, false rumours and forgeries (including a supposed record of pre-war PKP locomotives!) from that area, I remain sceptical that something on the scale suggested remains buried at that location.

[Andy Reichert]

Possibly an early attempt at 1:1-SF. So then it couldn't run on the standard gauge tracks back the the homeland.

 

After 70 years in a tunnel I reckon any locos or rolling stock would be in poor condition. I recall seeing some WW2 German equipment that was retrieved from an underground bunker in the Channel Islands after only 40 years - it was all as rotten as a chop.

In any case I'm highly skeptical of this story. I don't know how many times I've heard stories of buried trains, tanks, aircraft, motorcycles, firearms, etc. None of them turn out to be true.

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Mein Grott!

[Brinkly]

It makes you wonder how many more trains, lorries, caves, tunnels etc there are with Nazi looted property hidden away. The amount of property that was stolen by the Nazis during the war totalled millions even back then and that is just property that was catalogued, let alone unaccounted looted items.

 

War is a terrible thing, brings out the very worst in some.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Horsetan]

....War is a terrible thing, brings out the very worst in some....

So does eBay, and "bring-and-buy" at model railway shows.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I don't know much about a gold train in Poland but the burial of steam engines in the UK is a distinct possibilty.

 

From memory, in about 1970, I was asked to finance a 360 degree digging machine for digging up scrap steel in Wales. I did so and less than a year later the price of scrap dropped and the operation became unviable, the finance transaction that I arranged was settled by my ongoing Kent contact.

 

I don't know why this scrap was buried or where it came from but I know for sure that it was buried and probably en route to Port Talbot steelworks. I also know that the scrap supply was by no means exhausted when my tangential involvement ceased. The date that I did get involved is close enough to the end of steam to suggest that some of the scrap, if not all of it, might have been ex BR steam stock.

 

It is also possible that the steel works was responsible for the burial having paid for the scrap but not prepared to use it for some reason.

 

Either way I have lost all contact with the people involved so can't really check any other facts if indeed they are remembered.

 

I seriously don't believe that any steam stock was buried or stored in working order or as an intention to resurrect steam at some future date.

[polybear]

So does eBay, and "bring-and-buy" at model railway shows.

Not to mention the Bachmann scrum....

[APOLLO]

Tri-ang did a gold plated TT merchant navy and coaches.

 

Wonder how many of these have been buried ??!!

 

[EddieB]

I seriously don't believe that any steam stock was buried or stored in working order or as an intention to resurrect steam at some future date.

Probably not in the UK (discounting tales of Shoeburyness and the Box Tunnel). 

 

Compared with diesels, it is quite easy to mothball a steam loco in a state of readiness to return to service should the need arise.  Certainly Sweden, Finland and the border states of the former Soviet Union stored numerous locomotives in strategic reserves until the tensions of the Cold War had blown over.  (The "secret" locations being well known to intrepid enthusiasts).

[Horsetan]

Thar's gold in them thar hills!!!

[Fat Controller]

I don't know much about a gold train in Poland but the burial of steam engines in the UK is a distinct possibilty.

 

From memory, in about 1970, I was asked to finance a 360 degree digging machine for digging up scrap steel in Wales. I did so and less than a year later the price of scrap dropped and the operation became unviable, the finance transaction that I arranged was settled by my ongoing Kent contact.

 

I don't know why this scrap was buried or where it came from but I know for sure that it was buried and probably en route to Port Talbot steelworks. I also know that the scrap supply was by no means exhausted when my tangential involvement ceased. The date that I did get involved is close enough to the end of steam to suggest that some of the scrap, if not all of it, might have been ex BR steam stock.

 

It is also possible that the steel works was responsible for the burial having paid for the scrap but not prepared to use it for some reason.

 

Either way I have lost all contact with the people involved so can't really check any other facts if indeed they are remembered.

 

I seriously don't believe that any steam stock was buried or stored in working order or as an intention to resurrect steam at some future date.

I wonder if this South-Walian hoard was part of the large amount of former fencing and decorative iron-work that people were encouraged to remove and donate as 'salvage' during the early stages of WW2. I was told that much was unsuitable for re-melting for steel manufacture at the time, and so was 'hidden' out of public view. I doubt that any steam locos that were intended for scrap were buried, at least in a recognisable form as, apart from the high-grade ferrous scrap, there were appreciable amounts of non-ferrous material. Scrap merchants tended to remove this as soon as possible to stop the metal fairies helping themselves.

There were other sources of 'buried scrap'; steelwork slag heaps often had large lumps of cast iron, the residue of ladles that had been overfilled, and of the iron immediately below the slag when the furnace was tapped, whilst the non-ferrous industry also left residues that were worth searching for if prices were high enough. The most celebrated of these was the inclined chimney that ran up the side of Kilvey Hill, Swansea, from the IMI smelter at the bottom. A local entrepreneur put in a very low tender for demolishing this; he was aware that the smoke from the furnaces had left deposits of condensate on the inside, containing appreciable amounts of zinc and silver.

[PhilJ W]

Talking of evidence of wartime scrap drives, about 30 years ago I knew someone who set about demolishing an old pillbox on his property, It was found that the metal reinforcing had been Victorian iron railings used 'as is'. He did consider restoring them but regrettably they were only fit for scrap.

[t8hants]

The railings taken from the Isle of Wight were dumped in the Solent, as Victorian cast iron was useless for anything, apart from window weights.  Likewise most of the aluminum taken was quite unsuitable for aircraft, and even proved problematic when used for such things as  motorcycle cast crankcases.

 

I thought it was realized long ago the Government does indeed have an emergency reserve stock of steam locomotives, with trained crews.............sitting on every preserved line in the country. 

Because in the event of an emergency they will be requisitioned if needed.

Just as they had plans to requisition 500 ex military and other Land-rovers per week if Gulf War 1 had last a long time.

[Sweeps]

Probably not in the UK (discounting tales of Shoeburyness and the Box Tunnel). 

 

Compared with diesels, it is quite easy to mothball a steam loco in a state of readiness to return to service should the need arise.  Certainly Sweden, Finland and the border states of the former Soviet Union stored numerous locomotives in strategic reserves until the tensions of the Cold War had blown over.  (The "secret" locations being well known to intrepid enthusiasts).

Genuine question. What makes it harder to 'mothball' a diesel?

[EddieB]

Genuine question. What makes it harder to 'mothball' a diesel?

 

Generally because diesels tend to have components that are more susceptible to the effects of time and/or corrosion, such as wiring and batteries.  In contrast, the observed condition of a steam loco is usually a good indication of its serviceability.

 

There's also this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_steam_reserve.

[Junctionmad]

I can understand mislaying a train , but mislaying a tunnel ???

[Junctionmad]

The backtracking has started

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-31/poland-backtracks-on-nazi-gold-train-find-asks-for-army-help

[EddieB]

Well they would, wouldn't they.

 

I was talking to a Pole yesterday (the non-ferrous variety) and there is quite an excitement in his native country.  Quite understandable that TPTB would want to play down the story and discourage treasure-seekers.

[Jack]

There's also this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_steam_reserve.

 

Guess we'll find out in 3-5 years time!

[dullsteamer]

...the observed condition of a steam loco is usually a good indication of its serviceability.

I disagree. Unless you're blessed with x-ray vision simply looking at a loco won't tell you much about it's condition. I've seen more than one loco that looked immaculate, but was only one more trip away from a date with the boiler inspector's condemning stamp.

 

As for the ease of mothballing a steam loco compared to a diesel, I hardly think it's any easier if you seriously intend using it again without major repairs first.

 

At the bare minimum I'd start preparation with the running gear. I'd remove all the worsted wool trimmings from the rods and motion and drown the pins and bearings with round oil. If the engine had plain axle bearings I'd remove the woolpacks or felt pads and drown the journals in round oil. If it had roller bearings I'd pump the axleboxes and any other bearings with grease untill it was impossible to get any more in. I'd lubricate the slidebars and expansion link with grease then wrap them thoroughly in plastic sheet sealed with waterproof tape. Any pins and bushes on the frames such as compo beams and foundation rigging would also get a big dose of grease or cosmoline. I'd dismantle any accessories like mechanical lubricator so, feedwater pumps, air compressors and stoker motors to clean and lubricate them, then seal them against the weather.

 

Then I'd turn my attention to the boiler. I'd thoroughly clean the smokebox, firebox, ashpan, tubes and flues to remove any trace of ash. I'd drain the boiler and once it was completely dry internally I'd put the lime in, then replace every washout plug and handhole door to seal the boiler to keep any moisture out. I'd put a weatherproof cover on the chimney, sandbox lids, safety valves and turbo generator, as well as sealing the recesses in the cladding where the washout plugs are located. I'd finish by putting a plastic tarp over the whole engine to keep rain from getting under the cladding and wetting the lagging.

 

If it was a tender engine I'd follow the same procedures with the tender. Lube it, drain it, dry it out, lime the tank, clean every trace of coal from the bunker and tarp it.

 

I might add that if the engine was destined to be stored in a damp tunnel I'd say all bets were off.

 

As you might guess, I've prepared steam engines for long-term storage, and I've rebuilt engines that sat out in the weather neglected for 30 years as well.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Horsetan]

I disagree. Unless you're blessed with x-ray vision simply looking at a loco won't tell you much about it's condition. I've seen more than one loco that looked immaculate, but was only one more trip away from a date with the boiler inspector's condemning stamp......

Mmm....there are quite a few of those in the museum at Cultra....

[Siberian Snooper]

I disagree. Unless you're blessed with x-ray vision simply looking at a loco won't tell you much about it's condition. I've seen more than one loco that looked immaculate, but was only one more trip away from a date with the boiler inspector's condemning stamp.

As for the ease of mothballing a steam loco compared to a diesel, I hardly think it's any easier if you seriously intend using it again without major repairs first.

At the bare minimum I'd start preparation with the running gear. I'd remove all the worsted wool trimmings from the rods and motion and drown the pins and bearings with round oil. If the engine had plain axle bearings I'd remove the woolpacks or felt pads and drown the journals in round oil. If it had roller bearings I'd pump the axleboxes and any other bearings with grease untill it was impossible to get any more in. I'd lubricate the slidebars and expansion link with grease then wrap them thoroughly in plastic sheet sealed with waterproof tape. Any pins and bushes on the frames such as compo beams and foundation rigging would also get a big dose of grease or cosmoline. I'd dismantle any accessories like mechanical lubricator so, feedwater pumps, air compressors and stoker motors to clean and lubricate them, then seal them against the weather.

Then I'd turn my attention to the boiler. I'd thoroughly clean the smokebox, firebox, ashpan, tubes and flues to remove any trace of ash. I'd drain the boiler and once it was completely dry internally I'd put the lime in, then replace every washout plug and handhole door to seal the boiler to keep any moisture out. I'd put a weatherproof cover on the chimney, sandbox lids, safety valves and turbo generator, as well as sealing the recesses in the cladding where the washout plugs are located. I'd finish by putting a plastic tarp over the whole engine to keep rain from getting under the cladding and wetting the lagging.

If it was a tender engine I'd follow the same procedures with the tender. Lube it, drain it, dry it out, lime the tank, clean every trace of coal from the bunker and tarp it.

I might add that if the engine was destined to be stored in a damp tunnel I'd say all bets were off.

As you might guess, I've prepared steam engines for long-term storage, and I've rebuilt engines that sat out in the weather neglected for 30 years as well.

All the best,

Mark.

For boiler storage, I would remove the tubes and grease the tube holes before inserting wooden bungs and delag it, as the lagging holds moisture. Remove all the boiler fittings and replace with blanks, using oil soaked gaskets to protect the flange faces. These days you could use silica gel bags instead of lime.

[Suzie]

This story has slightly more legs than most conspiracy theories for a few reasons:-

 

1. Only half of the Reise tunnel complex that was built has been discovered, so there are a lot of tunnels still to find.

 

2. As unfortunate as it was the Germans were very good at recovering gold in the concentration camps, probably producing tons every day (fillings are probably not the sort of gold that treasure hunters are hoping for). There would have been enough gold for train loads of it after a while.

 

3.Książ Castle was the centre of the Reise complex so it is not surprising that it would be rail connected. The castle is not that far from the railway. Most if not all the tunnels had narrow gauge connections, some may have had standard gauge and that would have been easy in some places.

 

4. At the time Silesia was over run the Germans were looking at defeat, so would be looking to hide stuff for the future rather than shipping it all back to Berlin and storing it all neatly for the allies to pick up.

 

5. The Germans were quite good at hiding the entrances to secret bunkers, the secret film store at Templehoff airport foxed the Russians who resorted to excessive force to get in resulting in its destruction.

 

6. The Russians were very thorough in fulfilling their brief to put German defences beyond use, and appear to have been little interested in investigating them.

 

Seeing a V1 last week that was put together from parts found in the 1980s in a French mine that was used for underground weapons production I am sure that there is the potential for some interesting underground finds that are still in good condition. Some reports say that there were 30 000 slave workers unaccounted for, so there might be some grim finds too.

 

Just one thought though - surely someone must have noticed a new branch line disappearing into a mountian?

[EddieB]

I disagree. Unless you're blessed with x-ray vision simply looking at a loco won't tell you much about it's condition. I've seen more than one loco that looked immaculate, but was only one more trip away from a date with the boiler inspector's condemning stamp.

 

As for the ease of mothballing a steam loco compared to a diesel, I hardly think it's any easier if you seriously intend using it again without major repairs first.

 

At the bare minimum I'd start preparation with the running gear. I'd remove all the worsted wool trimmings from the rods and motion and drown the pins and bearings with round oil. If the engine had plain axle bearings I'd remove the woolpacks or felt pads and drown the journals in round oil. If it had roller bearings I'd pump the axleboxes and any other bearings with grease untill it was impossible to get any more in. I'd lubricate the slidebars and expansion link with grease then wrap them thoroughly in plastic sheet sealed with waterproof tape. Any pins and bushes on the frames such as compo beams and foundation rigging would also get a big dose of grease or cosmoline. I'd dismantle any accessories like mechanical lubricator so, feedwater pumps, air compressors and stoker motors to clean and lubricate them, then seal them against the weather.

 

Then I'd turn my attention to the boiler. I'd thoroughly clean the smokebox, firebox, ashpan, tubes and flues to remove any trace of ash. I'd drain the boiler and once it was completely dry internally I'd put the lime in, then replace every washout plug and handhole door to seal the boiler to keep any moisture out. I'd put a weatherproof cover on the chimney, sandbox lids, safety valves and turbo generator, as well as sealing the recesses in the cladding where the washout plugs are located. I'd finish by putting a plastic tarp over the whole engine to keep rain from getting under the cladding and wetting the lagging.

 

If it was a tender engine I'd follow the same procedures with the tender. Lube it, drain it, dry it out, lime the tank, clean every trace of coal from the bunker and tarp it.

 

I might add that if the engine was destined to be stored in a damp tunnel I'd say all bets were off.

 

As you might guess, I've prepared steam engines for long-term storage, and I've rebuilt engines that sat out in the weather neglected for 30 years as well.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

 

 

For boiler storage, I would remove the tubes and grease the tube holes before inserting wooden bungs and delag it, as the lagging holds moisture. Remove all the boiler fittings and replace with blanks, using oil soaked gaskets to protect the flange faces. These days you could use silica gel bags instead of lime.

 

Gentlemen, in bowing to your experience of how to do it "properly", the locomotives placed in strategic reserves on both sides of the Iron Curtain were given nothing like that treatment.  As might be expected, Sweden probably did things best and - like Finland - their reserve tended to be made up of one or two locomotives placed at strategic sites scattered around the country.  Where possible the locomotives were under cover, their motion thickly greased and chimneys capped.

 

In contrast, those set aside by the Soviets and their satellite states appear to have received hardly any preparation and were often grouped together under guard in compounds open to the sky.  (To be fair, those I first came across at Latvia in 1997 had become little more than dumps of both steam and diesel by that time, the rot literally setting in).  

 

I'd like to think that if there really was a reserve of 8Fs and 9Fs they would have been better prepared in this country!

[Fat Controller]

The gold that had been looted from the fillings of the concentration camp victims would probably have been melted and cast into hallmarked ingots; only in this form could it be traded or stored in 'neutral' banks. Whilst the press has had a field day about this train, rather less has been made of this:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33880350. I suspect rather more gold will be found in such locations than in 'hidden tunnels'.

[The Stationmaster]

  

 

I'd like to think that if there really was a reserve of 8Fs and 9Fs they would have been better prepared in this country!

They were (well not 9Fs), they received full general overhauls, but it was only a few of them before the programme - along with the entire steam reserve idea - was cancelled.