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Hornby OO Duchess/Princess trailing pony





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#1 A2Trimbush

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 17:03

I've recently acquired a Hornby OO Duchess with solid rear framing and hidden pony truck with flangeless wheels. It looks far better than the swinging pony truck on my older Duchess and Princess models. I see that this rear framing is available as a spare, @ £4.50, and would be grateful if anyone can relate their experiences of fitting it to a) older Duchesses  b) Princess models, before I make a mess of trying it. 

Just in case anyone thinks my RMweb name suggests I shouldn't be interested in this topic, my dad took me spotting to all the London termini in the 50's and I like all types !

 

Thanks in anticipation,

Chris

 



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#2 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 18:13

... I see that this rear framing is available as a spare, @ £4.50...

 From please?

 

I have tried a couple of times in the past for the comparable rear framing component of the Hornby A3/A4 - listed as a spare -  and it hasn't been available. The one I chanced on s/h was very easy to mount on an older model, with a few simple modifications to the block, and I shouldn't imagine the LMS pacific models will present any more of a challenge. (I want a flanged wheelset in the rear truck and the advantage of the Hornby frames moulding is that once cleared of all superfluous internal tackle, and with the rear stretcher cut through; if contacted by the wheelset - in a DIY inside frame swinging truck - it deflects slightly if required on tighter curves.)



#3 John Tomlinson

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 18:31

I'd love to know as well please. Forgive my ignorance, but is this a common part suitable for the Princess Royals as well as Duchesses?

 

John.


Edited by John Tomlinson, 24 August 2015 - 09:38 .


#4 TERRYSVR

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 18:40

Is the latest Duchess a completely new model or rerun of previous model?



#5 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:05

My estimate would be a hybrid: still has large chunks of Margate DNA with various improvements made over the years.



#6 alunhughes

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:36

I've recently acquired a Hornby OO Duchess with solid rear framing and hidden pony truck with flangeless wheels. It looks far better than the swinging pony truck on my older Duchess and Princess models. I see that this rear framing is available as a spare, @ £4.50, and would be grateful if anyone can relate their experiences of fitting it to a) older Duchesses   B) Princess models, before I make a mess of trying it. 

Just in case anyone thinks my RMweb name suggests I shouldn't be interested in this topic, my dad took me spotting to all the London termini in the 50's and I like all types !

 

Thanks in anticipation,

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

There's a long line of Duchess (and Princess) models going back to Dublo and then Tri-ang Hornby days.  The Hornby Duchess you have acquired sounds like it is the RailRoad version.  My son has one and the fixed trailing truck with flangeless wheels is, I believe, to allow it to go round 1st radius curves and possibly also to save cost.  The 'swinging (trailing) pony truck' is generally thought to be superior, but hey ho.  When the connecting rods got damaged, I bought a replacement Duchess chassis and (with a little modification) fitted it to the RailRoad Duchess body, but there are lots of different releases.  In relatively recent history there's been tender and loco drive and the Super Detail version which is entirely different again.  I probably need a bit more of an understanding of which other models of Duchess' you have.  The loco drive Margate and Chinese RailRoad models are very similar.

 

What I can tell you is that when I was doing the mods, I found the trailing truck frame at Peters Spares (bit it did not come with a wheelset) and the injector detail direct from Hornby, although they said at first that they didn't have any.

 

I hope that helps is some way.

 

Alun



#7 steam69

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:38

My estimate would be a hybrid: still has large chunks of Margate DNA with various improvements made over the years.

To be fair to Hornby the present model does not have any DNA from the Margate days however it was one of the early revamped models and had a gaping hole above the rear truck, which in later models this was modified with the present arrangement. In my humble opinion makes the current model good.

 

Richard



#8 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:03

To be fair to Hornby the present model does not have any DNA from the Margate days however it was one of the early revamped models and had a gaping hole above the rear truck, which in later models this was modified with the present arrangement. In my humble opinion makes the current model good.

 I'll just have to state that I radically disagree. Among the easily recognised bad old features are a slightly smaller centre driver, the bogie on a waggly bar with a huge amount of daylight above, the non-existent bit of valancing on the standard tender: all markers of Margate design, and there's much more. I don't know precisely what is and isn't post-Margate, but the fact that Margate's features are still to be seen is enough to tell me it is not 'all new' since the move to China.



#9 alunhughes

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:16

To be fair to Hornby the present model does not have any DNA from the Margate days however it was one of the early revamped models and had a gaping hole above the rear truck, which in later models this was modified with the present arrangement. In my humble opinion makes the current model good.

 

 

 I'll just have to state that I radically disagree. Among the easily recognised bad old features are a slightly smaller centre driver, the bogie on a waggly bar with a huge amount of daylight above, the non-existent bit of valancing on the standard tender: all markers of Margate design, and there's much more. I don't know precisely what is and isn't post-Margate, but the fact that Margate's features are still to be seen is enough to tell me it is not 'all new' since the move to China.

 

Not wishing to get drawn in, bit I think you're both comparing apples with pears.  As I wrote above, the RailRoad version is pretty much as per Margate, but I understand the latest super detail model is new.  Have a look here and let me know what you think.

 

I'm 99% sure that the O/P is referring to the RailRoad Duchess, which my son owns and I subsequently paired with a Margate chassis, so that is what I attempted to answer.

 

Alun



#10 steam69

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:24

Not wishing to get drawn in, bit I think you're both comparing apples with pears.  As I wrote above, the RailRoad version is pretty much as per Margate, but I understand the latest super detail model is new.  Have a look here and let me know what you think.

 

I'm 99% sure that the O/P is referring to the RailRoad Duchess, which my son owns and I subsequently paired with a Margate chassis, so that is what I attempted to answer.

 

Alun

Hornby to my knowledge have never done a Duchess in the Railroad range, they have issued the Black 5, A3, and A4 but not the Duchess.

 

Richard


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#11 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:28

..but I understand the latest super detail model is new.  Have a look here and let me know what you think.

That link just hangs for me.

http://www.ehattons....tockDetail.aspx

Here's what Hattons are currently offering. All the bad old Margateness I mentioned on clear view.

 

To be clear, if Hornby have updated the Duchess completley to match teh standard achieved on the Castle, I will be

1) interested to know how I missed that, and

2.) looking for the best price at which I may obtain a current standard model of Sir William's Biggun.


Edited by 34theletterbetweenB&D, 24 August 2015 - 12:30 .


#12 alunhughes

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:37

Hornby to my knowledge have never done a Duchess in the Railroad range, they have issued the Black 5, A3, and A4 but not the Duchess.

 

Richard

 

You are aware that some Duchess locomotives had names beginning with 'City' aren't you?  And you have heard of train sets???  It was called 'The Royal Scot'.



#13 A2Trimbush

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 19:03

Thank you all. I obviously need to explain a little more.

Firstly, the latest model I have is R2930, 46243 City of Lancaster.

The older models I'm trying to upgrade are all Chinese made, loco drive, 'super detail' Princess Royals and Princess Coronations. 

The Hornby part is X9834, described as a Duchess/Coronation pony truck frame, normally available from Peter's spares. The pony truck frame on the prototype Princess Royals appear very similar to the Princess Coronations, though don't have the two oval frame cutouts each side. This could be why Hornby have not offered a  Princess Royal upgraded in this way, or it could be that the X9834 pony truck frame won't fit a Princess Royal anyway ? - hence my question.

The defects (or old Margate leftovers) on my City of Lancaster will be masked by dirtying wheel rims and (if you've got level track and no curves less than 2'6'') reducing the daylight above the front bogie with black plastikard. Yes, the latest Hornby Duchess isn't as good as some (e.g. A4s and King Arthurs) BUT compared to a Dublo Duchess of Atholl @ 1948 and the Tri-ang Princess I got for Christmas 1953 it's wonderful !

My priority will be to upgrade a Royal, renamed as 46210 Lady Patricia in deference to She-who-must-be obeyed.  Clearly I MUST NOT make a mess of Lady Patricia so your advice is vital !


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#14 WD0-6-0

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 20:42

You are aware that some Duchess locomotives had names beginning with 'City' aren't you? And you have heard of train sets??? It was called 'The Royal Scot'.

There is no need for a response like that. There is no Duchess listed in the railroad range and to my knowledge never has been, the set you refer to predates the most recent incarnation of the duchess and therefore would have been the current model at the time of release thus not a railroad range model, not all sets are railroad range.
I am of course always willing to be proven wrong.

Edited by WD0-6-0, 24 August 2015 - 20:43 .

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#15 John Tomlinson

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 09:51

Just to clarify, X9834 into Google has just come up with the item temporarily out of stock at Peters Spares.

 

The photo shows it to be exactly what is needed on older models which have the rear part of the frame, which in reality extends under the cab, as a pivoting item holding the wheels, with a great gap for daylight in consequence where none should exist. I have 46248 "City of Leeds", which has this old style pony truck, and whilst there are other faults as mentioned this must surely be the most glaring. There is a Comet etch that can be used to make a proper frame, but this Hornby part looks a far simpler solution.

 

Looking at the photo on the Peters spares website, you do need a new means of attachment for the coupling to the tender, and also the pony wheels themselves which aren't included.

 

At such time as availability arises, I'll probably go for one for my Princess Royal as well, and modify to suit - at £4.50 not the end of the world if it doesn't work, or I could always buy another old style Duchess!

 

Hope that helps.

 

John.


Edited by John Tomlinson, 27 August 2015 - 09:54 .


#16 ikks

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:25

I placed an order for two of these items from Model Trains 4U in 2014, they are holding my payment pending delivery from Hornby!!!,

no issue with this retailer as they have offered a refund but I'm still waiting, they do seem as scarce as hens teeth. Hornby can't or won't supply them direct.

 

Rgds............Mike 


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#17 ikks

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 04:39

Just an update, I have been able to obtain two of these from Peter's Spares, they were on Ebay and only two were available but if Peters had them maybe other spares suppliers might have them.

 

Rgds....Mike



#18 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 08:50

Persistence pays! I have since managed to obtain another A3/A4 cartazzi frame privately, but getting this item as a spare from dealers appears impossible despite it being listed with a reference number on the diagram.



#19 John Tomlinson

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:08

Just revisiting this topic, as I have acquired the X9834 part from Lendons of Cardiff, I think Peters Spares may also now have some.

 

Bearing in mind the cost of the new Hornby Duchess/Cities, their QC issues and availability (or not), and the fact that I picked up an older style mint example the other day for under £70, this might be a route for those interested in having some of these locos.

 

Still pondering the best way to fit the new pony truck and a wheelset.

 

John.


Edited by John Tomlinson, 07 December 2017 - 11:09 .


#20 ScRSG

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:55

Depending on your tightest radius curves, this is not a particularly difficult thing to do, but will not work on settrack curves of any sort. The chassis casting on the swinging truck versions is slightly different from the newer version with the fixed truck. The way I have done this is to, firstly, modify the trailing truck by cutting away all the metal outside the wheels using a razor saw as in this picture -

IMGP0829.JPG

Then, taking your nice new X9834 spare part, get to work with the saw again and remove the portion containing the mounting hole to the chassis (the new style chassis is different in depth so you can't use the part, as supplied, on the older chassis. Cut the part in half by cutting the bar along the back so you now have two separate sides of the truck. Remove the excess plastic at the front of the frames just to follow the curved outline. See this pic, I hope this description is clear.

IMGP0830.JPG

To fix the new frames you need to remove the pipe detail from under the cab and also the moulded "pips" etc. that these were mounted in. The replacement frames are glued in place,I used 5 minute epoxy.

From this photo,

IMGP0832.JPG

you can see how the mounting screw hole has been modified to carry the tender draw bar - this has also the effect of closer coupling of the tender. The screw is a standard 2mm, I used a spare 3link coupling spring.

The pieces of plasticard glued to the sides of the chassis are to represent the firebox sides, this is to hide the "see through" effect of using the new frames.

These mods. will allow the loco to run on minimum 2 foot radius curves.

Hope this all helps.

Note that this conversion is not appropriate for "Princess" models as the spare is for a Duchess and the frames on a Princess are quite different ( No holes and fewer rivets!)
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#21 John Tomlinson

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:35

Depending on your tightest radius curves, this is not a particularly difficult thing to do, but will not work on settrack curves of any sort. The chassis casting on the swinging truck versions is slightly different from the newer version with the fixed truck. The way I have done this is to, firstly, modify the trailing truck by cutting away all the metal outside the wheels using a razor saw as in this picture -

attachicon.gifIMGP0829.JPG

Then, taking your nice new X9834 spare part, get to work with the saw again and remove the portion containing the mounting hole to the chassis (the new style chassis is different in depth so you can't use the part, as supplied, on the older chassis. Cut the part in half by cutting the bar along the back so you now have two separate sides of the truck. Remove the excess plastic at the front of the frames just to follow the curved outline. See this pic, I hope this description is clear.

attachicon.gifIMGP0830.JPG

To fix the new frames you need to remove the pipe detail from under the cab and also the moulded "pips" etc. that these were mounted in. The replacement frames are glued in place,I used 5 minute epoxy.

From this photo,

attachicon.gifIMGP0832.JPG

you can see how the mounting screw hole has been modified to carry the tender draw bar - this has also the effect of closer coupling of the tender. The screw is a standard 2mm, I used a spare 3link coupling spring.

The pieces of plasticard glued to the sides of the chassis are to represent the firebox sides, this is to hide the "see through" effect of using the new frames.

These mods. will allow the loco to run on minimum 2 foot radius curves.

Hope this all helps.

Note that this conversion is not appropriate for "Princess" models as the spare is for a Duchess and the frames on a Princess are quite different ( No holes and fewer rivets!)

 

Many thanks indeed for this, which is exactly the answer to the problem.

 

Great that for me it "kills two birds with one stone", by closing the loco to tender gap as well.

 

John.


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#22 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 13:41

...To be clear, if Hornby have updated the Duchess completely to match the standard achieved on the Castle, I will be

1) interested to know how I missed that, and

2.) looking for the best price at which I may obtain a current standard model of Sir William's Biggun.

 So, now that this most desireable event has recently occurred, we come to the next problem: how to modify the all new model to have a flanged wheel in a swinging inside frame trailing truck with the cosmetic fixed frames retained outside for optimum appearnce. Any attempts yet? What's the minimum radius? I anticipate it will be some time before I am in any postion to play with this unfortunately, so it will have to be gathering hints and tips for now.



#23 vitalspark

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 17:00

 So, now that this most desireable event has recently occurred, we come to the next problem: how to modify the all new model to have a flanged wheel in a swinging inside frame trailing truck with the cosmetic fixed frames retained outside for optimum appearnce. Any attempts yet? What's the minimum radius? I anticipate it will be some time before I am in any postion to play with this unfortunately, so it will have to be gathering hints and tips for now.

 

 

I'm missing something here..why do you need a swinging truck within the fixed outside frames?

 

If you are not running on trainset curves as you shouldn't be with this loco then a swinging truck with flanged wheels within fixed side frames will not be noticed and if you do have unrealistic curves then the fixed side frames will limit the flanged wheels on the swinging truck.

 

As you can't see whats going on under there anyway unless your' nose is at rail level and 2 inches away I find this obsession with trying to modify the rear truck as very strange and tbh pointless.

 

Dave.   


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#24 34theletterbetweenB&D

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 17:48

I'm missing something here..why do you need a swinging truck within the fixed outside frames?....   

 Because with a flanged wheel fitted, the model looks better - as in consistent with all the other flanged wheelsets - and the whole vehicle takes up track curvature in a superior fashion. You might like it if you tried it.

 

Just interested in information exchange with others of like mind.


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#25 vitalspark

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 21:05

The flange is invisible unless your peering in with a torch from two inches.

 

The fixed side plates would limit  the swinging truck to such a small amount of movement that to operate within the tolerances suggested the tail end will display exactly the same characteristics as a fixed truck would.

 

You are obviously modelling something better than our humble finescale layout.


Edited by vitalspark, 07 December 2017 - 21:55 .








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