New Layout - 'Hufeisental'

[Alan Kettlewell]

 ...As it happens I've changed my plan and will be making my layout based around the southern parts of Germany, same region generally but on the north side of the Tyrol.  This slight deviation from the plan is due to the fact that I bagged a massive amount of used Somerfeldt catenary (from Rails of Sheffield) which is German style.  I estimated the cost of new catenary to be around £1000 for my planned layout so I was pleased to see this job lot of used catenary come up for sale which I got for £325 - quite a saving!  So DB it is then but of course I'll be running trains from Switzerland, Austria and other neighbouring countries.  The main thing for me is modelling the fantastic scenery from the region, hills, mountains, high bridges going over deep ravines etc, ...

 

 

 

I thought it worth re-posting the above earlier part of this thread for those that missed it - you can see that a lucky find of a huge amount of German catenary for sale drove me to change direction so my layout is now based in southern parts of Germany.  I've amended my layout plan to right hand running.  I've kept the topic in Swiss Railways where it started so I guess it should really belong over in the German Railways forum but, if there are no objections, I'll leave it here if folks want to see the continuing story.  

 

Alan

Edited December 10, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[bgman]

Morning Alan,

I don't see any reason not to leave your post here, it may confuse if you change now. I'd carry on

[RhBBob]

Yes, accuracy is a wonderful thing (catenary, etc..) but don't forget, please, that you are supposed to be having fun !!

[Allegheny1600]

All I know is;

It's hugely refreshing to see someone on here building a large European layout and I love it!

I was going to do similar myself but changes in circumstances have forced me to go small (& slow!).

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

John.

[Alan Kettlewell]

All I know is;

It's hugely refreshing to see someone on here building a large European layout and I love it!

I was going to do similar myself but changes in circumstances have forced me to go small (& slow!).

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

John.

That is tough luck when your circumstances change and dictate your plans. I feel lucky as part of our recent (and probably final) house move I was able to to put a large garden, big enough for a big shed, high up in my priority list. So far so good, now I just hope health holds out and I can actually get a layout to somewhere near completion. That would be a first for me as previous layouts have been abandoned only part way through. So, more determination required this time around.

 

Alan

[buchanan]

Hi Alan

 

Absolutely agree with the posts above ...... no going back now!  Clearly I'm not the only one who needs a regular fix, so no shirking, keep building, keep having fun (and keep posting ...... Please).

 

very best of luck

 

john c

[Alan Kettlewell]

Well, nice to see a few interested in this so I'm happy to continue posting updates, pictures etc.

 

I took a decision over the last week or so to amend the plan slightly, I'm changing the Level 3 section to single line only instead of double track. I'll post another diagramme from Train Controller soon but you can see the plans on page 1 of this thread. There's a few advantages of this including:

 

- less track, less catenary etc required, less work!

 

- I can lay single spiral tracks from level 2 up to level 3 and therefore ascending trains can take advantage of an easier radius and easier gradient. When laying double spirals I always try to arrange that ascending trains use the bigger radius track, and vice versa. In this case, German railways driving on the right, I would try to arrange the spiral to be anti-clockwise, but that doesn't always fit in with the plan. A single track spiral means you can lay the circle to take advantage of the wider radius.

 

- a single track will require less 'width' or space on the layout, therefore I can feature a few more curvy sections (I dislike dead straight tracks) and have a little more room for the scenery

 

- It will allow more space over on the other side of the layout (the part I haven't started on yet) to fit in a small stopping station, with a passing loop, and a platform for a small rack and pinion line to run to the top of the mountain.

 

- trains can be scheduled to run automatically on the layout between level 2 and level 3 without ever passing through the main (DR) station on level 1. Therefore I can run a couple of SBB trains up there without losing too much credibility ie not too obviously running Swiss trains on German lines!

 

Anyway, enough of the planning and theory stuff, I much prefer pictures!

 

Next though, I'm thinking of having a break from building and making a start on installing some of the feedback modules. I bought in four of the modules from Digikeijs, as recommended over on another thread. These have 16 outputs per module so were a lot cheaper than buying the Roco versions which have only 8. I'll be wiring these up to reed switches embedded in the track positioned to report train positions in my block sections. I prefer this method to using occupancy detectors because it works, it's easier, it's cheaper and you don't need isolated sections in your track work. More on this later ...

 

Alan

Edited December 10, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[bgman]

Hi Alan,

 

I'm currently at a similar stage and having had conversations with James (DCCTrainAutomation) about feedback I find myself in limbo so to speak at the moment. The Digikeijs modules appear to be somewhat cheaper and with the added bonus of 16 outputs I'm very tempted too. I will be interested to see how you get on with reed switches, having also considered using them, will you attach small magnets to the bottom of your loco's ?

Another product he mentioned was the Dinamo OC32 unit which can be used to control a great many accessories.

I've decided to use the DCC Concepts AD8FX units to control my turnout motors ( already have them ) and they respond well.

My control system is the ESU ECoS command station ( all singing and dancing and loving it !) which will do what I need currently.

 

Keep up the good work and once again, most enjoyable.

p.s. If I was closer I'd love to run some of my early locos on that layout

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi bgman,

 

Always interested in what kit other modellers use.  I've used reed switches on previous layouts and find they work just fine for me for train detection.  Yes I fix a small magnet under each loco, or one at each end if it's a push-pull train eg a railcar.  In Train Controller I set the contact 'memory' properties to turn off after 5 seconds.  This displays the block as 'pink' for 5 seconds as the train is detected.  Works well for me.

 

I previously used Lenz LR101s for feedback but these won't work with my new Roco Z21 system.  I had several of these from previous layouts so I was pleased to get a good price for them on eBay. 

 

The Roco feedback modules are about £70 each (for 8 inputs) and as I have about 60 block sections on my new layout I would have needed to buy 8 of the Roco modules, so around £560 outlay!  So I've gone with the Digikeijs modules and at around £40 each and 16 inputs per module I only need 4 of them.  I had to buy the connecting cables too but all up around £180 - a heck of a saving!   I've done a dry run with them on the workbench, set them up and configured them and they work fine.  

 

Each module has two common connections so the addressing goes:

 

1:1, 1:2, 1:3 etc uo to eight, then using the other common:

2:1, 2:2, 2:3 etc until you fill up all 16. 

The next module address then starts at 3:1,3:2 etc. 

 

Not too difficult once you get started with the configuration.  The manual is a bit lacking in detail so it was a bit tricky to understand how to wire them up and configure them to work with the Roco Z21.  Fortunately I got some good advice from a very helpful member on this forum.   

 

I have no experience with the Dinamo and DCC Concepts units you mention, I'm using my Lenz LR150s with Tortoise motors for the turnouts, but I do like the ESU ECoS station.  That was to be my choice of systems but instead I got the Roco Z21 as it was half the price and I fancied everything being wireless.  It's great being able to walk around the layout and run trains and points from my iPad.  Also my laptop running Train Controller connects up to the Roco Z21 wirelessly.  I've made a small table on wheels for the laptop so I can have my control panel anywhere in the room, and shove it aside when it gets in the way!

 

I'll try to remember to get some pictures on showing some of this stuff so folks can see what I'm on about - I can imagine eyes glazing over as folks are reading all this (unless they've fallen asleep!)

 

Anyway, time to switch on the heating down the shed ready for another day down there, it's been a freezing night up here in North Yorkshire.  I leave the heaters switched on but then turn off the whole power to the shed from an isolator switch up here in the house.  That way I can simply throw the switch an hour or so before I go down there and have a bit of heat for when I get there.  I could set timers but I'd forget to turn them off if I don't go down there for any reason.  Lazy or what!

 

Alan    

Edited December 11, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[bgman]

Good morning Alan,

 

Thank you for such a comprehensive response and very informative.

When I took early retirement two years ago I drew up plans for a shed of approx. 30sq.m ( just under to avoid relevant permissions etc )

But having already converted the attached integral garage I decided to use that space in which to "play trains" ! I'm afraid I would suffer the lazy aspect if I had to go down the garden, that's not to say I would dearly love the larger space having seen your proposal and other RMweb members on here.

I also have the Z21 system which I will hook up to the ECoS using the sniffer connection as it will recognise it as I too will be using my iPad as an extra feature to control the layout. ( owning both systems probably makes me sound extravagent but it's my retirement money !!! Hahaha )

My turnouts are the DCC Concepts and Tortoise mixed and bench trials have worked with these.

Over and above this it seems we may well be running in parallel with our ideas as I intend to use a surplus pine kitchen trolley unit adapted to place a control board on top to push out of the way beneath the baseboards. The one item I don't have is the Train Contoller software having spent up on the ECoS I will make do with the parameters it currently offers combined with the Z21.

I missed out on some Jagendorfer Railjet coaches last week ( the red livery with driving trailer set ) so I will probably purchase a new set soon. Although my proposal will be for an early period steam etc, I have every intention of running modern stock too, as I've intimated before, it's my layout and I'll run whatever I like.

 

Cheers for now and enjoy !

 

Grahame

[Alan Kettlewell]

Here are the Digikeijs feedback modules laid out with their associated connecting cables shown for interest. You can see I've labelled them. The small black telephone type cable will connect to the RB (feedback) bus socket on the back of the Roco Z21. Each of the modules are linked by the blue Ethernet type cables. You can see each module has 16 inputs.

 

I'll be working out today where best to place these on the layout. I'll definitely need one on the layout over on the opposite side of the room so it looks like I'll need to get a longer cable.

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[Alan Kettlewell]

Here's my super mobile control panel, which is my laptop placed on top of this little DIY mobile table that rolls under the layout when not needed - or it can be shoved anywhere around the room when in the way. The only time it gets tethered is when I need to hook up to charge the battery.

 

 

 

 

Cool eh ...

 

An enormous advantage of having the control panel on a PC is that you can amend the whole thing with ease if you decide to change the track work on your layout. Just love this technology ..

 

Alan

[backofanenvelope]

Hi Alan, just come across your thread and how very impressive. I wondered if you are planning on just watching the trains go by or will there be a certain amount of operation? The automation is very impressive and I took like the way of the future.

 

Looking forward to seeing this progress.

 

Regards

Tom

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for the interest. I'm definitely of the 'watch the trains go by' type and enjoy the challenge of getting a layout to run automated. There was a funny little story written somewhere about a guy who was running an automated layout with Train Controller software, apparently he was sat down having a cup of tea, heating on so he was warm and cozy, enjoying watching the trains run from station to station, stopping, moving on after a pause, shuttle trains going back and forth, all that sort of thing. He fell asleep awaking 20 minutes later and there it all was, still operating flawlessly, trains running on time etc.

 

With Train Controller you can choose to operate the layout automatically, or decide to take control yourself over some of it or all of it. A good example is where you might have trains running under computer controlled schedules on the main line(s) but do your own shunting in the yards. Its only bounds are the imagination of the user.

 

This layout though is all about watching trains going through some dramatic scenery.

 

Cheers

Alan

[bgman]

Most interesting Alan, those Digikeijs units are certainly worth the money in my opinion. I purchased the Digikeijs DR4018 Digiswitch 16 channel version to run my Veissman semaphores ( when they eventually get installed ) which is certainly cheaper than other units I've seen.

If it's of any use I bought my Ethernet cables from Tesco's in 2m lengths, the price and convenience was worth it for me.

Just out of curiosity may I ask which version of Train Controller, I noted there are three options.

 

Cheers for now, the postie has just arrived with another piece of turnout hardware and I'm currently laying track so back to it !

 

Grahame

[backofanenvelope]

Thanks for the explanation Alan and I am sure it will be very relaxing watching trains go by in your railway room

[Alan Kettlewell]

Most interesting Alan, those Digikeijs units are certainly worth the money in my opinion. I purchased the Digikeijs DR4018 Digiswitch 16 channel version to run my Veissman semaphores ( when they eventually get installed ) which is certainly cheaper than other units I've seen.

If it's of any use I bought my Ethernet cables from Tesco's in 2m lengths, the price and convenience was worth it for me.

Just out of curiosity may I ask which version of Train Controller, I noted there are three options.

Cheers for now, the postie has just arrived with another piece of turnout hardware and I'm currently laying track so back to it !

Grahame

Yes they are a good choice. I got 9 of my reed switches wired up today and everything works fine. I haven't got round to even thinking about the signalling yet so I'd better start considering all that.

 

I have Train Controller Gold version. It's the most expensive option but I want all the features. Somewhere on Freiwald's RR&Co website there's a list that compares Bronze, Silver and Gold versions so that would be worth a browse if you're thinking about taking the plunge. You might know that you can download the software for free to trial it, the restriction is that it will only run for 15 minutes if you connect it to a digital system (I think). Otherwise you can run it all under simulated mode and see what it's all about. Beware though it can be addictive and you'll need deep pockets!

 

Cheers

Alan

[M Graff]

It looks very nice! It'll be very fun to follow this build!

[Alan Kettlewell]

I realised that as the layout is progressing I should give a bit more thought to the electrics, in particular splitting the layout into power districts. No point in repeating everything here but for anyone interested I posed a question to members over in the DCC Questions forum here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106029-booster-question/

 

I've received some great support over there and now have a much better idea about power districts and sub districts for ease of fault detection. I'll repeat the two screenshots below showing my first attempt at dividing up the layout electrically, there'll be some further adjustment as it's not quite there yet.

 

And level three which has now been changed to single line track with a passing loop at the Rack & Pinion station on the country side:

 

 

 

 

Alan

Edited December 14, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[Alan Kettlewell]

Meanwhile as I ponder over the wiring and power district plan, it's time to stop playing trains and get on with some work so I got everything packed back into the boxes out of the way of all the dirt and dust I'll be producing. Here it all is, had to make some storage space in the ceiling area:

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

A bit of progress as the framework for Levels 2 and 3 take shape to the rear of the main board. This area will be a hill/mountain towering above the station. All 3 levels will house hidden storage loops (accessible from behind) and level 2 will feature a double main line track running along a ramp along the front of the hillside - typical of the region. In the distance are the East Spirals already constructed up to Level 2:

 

 

In the next picture you can make out the long threaded stud work bars sticking up in pairs out of the boards down at the end. These will support the West Spirals which will connect to Level 2 and carry a single track up to Level 3:

 

 

When constructing the spirals I realised that the threaded stud work takes up a lot less space than traditional timber construction for raised levels, so you might see I've used them in other areas too. I like the idea that you can vary the heights infinitely.

 

Tomorrow I'm hoping to get the West Spiral supports in place so I can determine the timber work I need to connect with Level 2. Onwards and upwards - literally!

 

Cheers

Alan

Edited December 14, 2015 by Alan Kettlewell

[bgman]

Making good progress Alan nice workmanship.

[Alan Kettlewell]

Apologies for the absence - I got side tracked with a 'winter project' building an O gauge loco for a friend - must have saved a packet by having no heating on in the shed!

 

I've made progress building the level 2 framework, boards and track-work making my way along towards the far end of the layout where level 2 tracks go right underneath the 'West Spirals'.  The West Spirals carry the Level 3 track around the corner, and rise/lower by 1 1/4 turns to meet the higher tracks (which will be on the framework seen to the right in the photo - at the moment the track meets thin air!).  Due to space limitations this spiral is fairly tight but it will be fine for shorter trains which is all I intend to run up on level 3 anyway. 

 

The spiral carries a single track using Peco 2nd radius set track, which gives a diameter of just under 35 inches (876mm).  With some very careful calculations and measurements I've determined the minimum clearance between each level to be 80mm.  This makes a gradient of about 30:1 and just allows for a raised pantograph to squeeze under - I should add that I'll be fixing all pantographs at a set height using clear fishing line and the overhead catenary will not be 'working' catenary, only for show, so I won't need to model it in tunnels and off scene areas.

 

     

[Alan Kettlewell]

Another shot.  This view is looking along the layout towards the West Spirals with my camera held above the East Spirals.  The double track you can see laid out on Level 2 will be run along a ramp in the hillside but the area to the right will run under the hill, with four hidden storage loops, accessible from behind.  I'm not keen on dead straight tracks so, to provide more interest, I've deliberately put a curve half way along which will run under a short rock-fall tunnel.  There are loads of these type of tunnels in the region.

 

So here you can see the station area on level 1 to the left, level 2 and to the right and higher is the framework for level 3.

 

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

One more shot.  This is the far end of the layout where I've began constructing the framework and track beds to go around the next corner.  The left corner will feature the deepest scenery which will be a deep ravine.  Its lowest point will be around 1ft from the floor and rising to about 5ft.  Track will cross the ravine here on 3 levels, levels 1 and 2 will be double track on viaducts while level 3, a single track, will run along a 'ledge' in the hillside, I might feature one of those rock fall 'shelters' you see in these mountainous regions to protect the level 3 track.    I'm looking forward to modelling the scenery on this part but have to be careful about what I can reach!

 

Soon though I'll need to catch up on the electrics as there are no droppers yet fixed to the recent track I've laid.

 

Cheers .. Alan