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Buckingham West


Richard Mawer
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Hi Richard, I think good idea to move across to this part of the web, as I have found the feedback valuable and supportive. It seems to be a highly visible and well looked at part of the web. Its always nice to read a layouts progress here.

 

I will be keeping a close eye on your progress for reasons we have traversed in your blog site.

 

Regards, Andy R

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Thanks Andy,

 

I thought it best. As you say, lots of advice seems to be given and all the layouts I follow are here.

 

Thanks.

 

I am going copy over some of my earlier key postings. No idea if the photos will copy. Lets have a go

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Pre-requisites

Posted by Richard Mawer, 14 November 2012 · 242 views

 

Peter Denny Loft New modeller returning modeller Great Western HWDMRS

The layout has to tick various boxes for me. The first and foremost is operational interest. All my layouts as a teenager were tail-chasing train sets with some scenery apart from one which was a fiddleyard to small branch terminus, but they were boring to operate. What really got me about Peter Denny's Buckingham was the operational interest.

 

No matter how I redesigned the concept over the 30 years away from modelling, I kept coming back to Denny's three stations and fiddleyard.

 

I have already said that a timetable and clock are important, but so are the following citeria:-

 

* three independant stations with goods facilities

* operators primarily as signalmen not drivers

* operating signals and some interlocking

* block working with bells

* double track mainline

* station pilot working of main terminus

* layout location to be fictional, but a secondary line placed in a real area that 'could have been'

* mid 30's GWR, but with a limited number of 4-6-0s

* 5 coach mainline trains

* a quarry or other source of mineral traffic

* lots of cattle traffic

* milk traffic

* continuous run for testing /running in /putting time and distance on the timetable /just watching trains

* panel switches to be in an old fashioned 'frame' rather than a 'powerbox' track diagram

* private sidings for industry

* lots of shunting for proper reasons, not just random

* intertia control of locos

* solo and group operation.

 

Of secondary importance to me is the scenery. Don't get me wrong, I want it to look the part, but I am no Barry Norman and this layout will be no Pendon. I just don't have those skills, patience or time. Mine will be a little more like the Gainsborough Model Railway Society. I think most of the exhibition layouts I have seen on the circuit are amazing. The quality of workmanship is incredible and they present brilliant scenes, but for me, many lack operational interest or purpose. It's a personal thing and I welcome the diversity of this hobby!

 

So that's where the thought process got me.

 

Next was a rummage in the loft to reveal 24 unused short radius peco code 100 insulfrog points, a few superquick buildings only slightly damaged, 4 H&M point motors, 2 H&M Duette controllers, 25 yards of unused but rusty steel flexi-track and an old triang motorised turntable.

 

First real decision - to use peco code 100 and nickel silver track. The steel was ditched. I couldn't afford to ignore the points and buy replacements as well as teh extras I would need.

 

A look in the boxes of accumulated stock confirmed I had 14 locos - most of which hadn't ever been run. Most were bought new, but a few had been ebay purchases. I have collected a good selection of coaches and wagons over the last 10 years os when I have been "seriously" contemplating this layout - rather than just day dreaming with precious little intent!

 

This delve into history resulted in 2 more early decisions to be made: DC or DCC and what to do about that half made K's Bulldog kit I kept looking at and putting away? Time for Google.......... Like x 3 List

 

 

Report Entry

 

 

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devondynosoar118

Nov 14 2012 18:24

You don't actually have to decide dc or dcc, I wire exactly the same for both, with live common crossings on the points and traditional point control. When I want to run dcc I can simply throw the section switches and plug in my DCC controller.

For a layout that is more about operations I would go DCC without question, you can still have proper lever frames for the points, most moderately priced DCC controllers are clunky for this anyway. Also don't use those short radius points on running lines, it is not money saved if you like operating and intend to use some kit built stock.

Sounds like a real cracker to run too, good luck with the interlocking, just the thought of it makes my brain hurt!

As for the dukedog, look at Franks blog, he is doing one too, maybe this will help stop yours being put away unfinished?

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Richard Mawer

Nov 14 2012 22:45

Devon D, thanks for the comments. To answer you in detail will pre-empt the next blog entry, but Google did provide me with the route to getting both an answer to the DC/DCC question and got my Bulldog built. It also opened a number of other avenues. The blog is still catching up with reality.

 

Nevertheless, I understand your comments about being able to change from DC to DCC as indeed I ran a wiring bus and droppers. I don't understand your comment about live common crossings on the points. On the newly bought points I have used electrofrogs, but have wired the frogs back to the point control switches to change polarity. What do you do?

 

The short radius points have found use in the storage loops and goods yards/private sidings.

 

Thanks for your interest. Keep in touch.

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relaxinghobby

Nov 15 2012 13:11

I agree many exhibition layouts lack operational interest but have nice scenery.

I used to read the American Railroad Modeller, which usually featured a large layout each month. As well as nice scenery such a big layout would be operated on a point to point method, station to station and station to fiddle yard. With fast and slow passenger trains, block goods and pick-up goods operated from station to station or between industrial siding. A time table or schedule would be used to keep everything in order.

 

Also traffic or wagon requirements would be generated by a computer or random playing card system to tell the train operators what wagons are needed where on each railroad system. Often a non-train driving central controller ( a human sitting at a desk ) would marshal all train movements.

 

Groups of operators would meet monthly or visit each others layouts on a round robin bases. Something very rare in this country.

 

The open or scenicked fiddle yard is also a feature, and is built as a big marshalling yard, on the Denny layout the central through station, is it Grandborough Junction, had this task?

 

Also the Denny layout was built up from smaller sections over many years, in his book he said he never threw anything out so old buildings could be recycled onto a new section.

 

To me such a layout is the most attractive, here is where clubs could do more and develop the more common round and round or terminus to fiddle yard into something bigger and better. A whole railway system where the signals and other railway stuff are as important as the locomotives. With the increase in sophistication would come lasting interest.

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Richard Mawer

Nov 15 2012 13:21

'relaxinghobby', on 15 Nov 2012 - 14:11, said:

I agree many exhibition layouts lack operational interest but have nice scenery.

I used to read the American Railroad Modeller, which usually featured a large layout each month. As well as nice scenery such a big layout would be operated on a point to point method, station to station and station to fiddle yard. With fast and slow passenger trains, block goods and pick-up goods operated from station to station or between industrial siding. A time table or schedule would be used to keep everything in order.

 

Also traffic or wagon requirements would be generated by a computer or random playing card system to tell the train operators what wagons are needed where on each railroad system. Often a non-train driving central controller ( a human sitting at a desk ) would marshal all train movements.

 

Groups of operators would meet monthly or visit each others layouts on a round robin bases. Something very rare in this country.

 

The open or scenicked fiddle yard is also a feature, and is built as a big marshalling yard, on the Denny layout the central through station, is it Grandborough Junction, had this task?

 

Also the Denny layout was built up from smaller sections over many years, in his book he said he never threw anything out so old buildings could be recycled onto a new section.

 

To me such a layout is the most attractive, here is where clubs could do more and develop the more common round and round or terminus to fiddle yard into something bigger and better. A whole railway system where the signals and other railway stuff are as important as the locomotives. With the increase in sophistication would come lasting interest.

 

 

Hi.

 

That's exactly what I am trying to acheive! You don't live near High Wycombe do you?

 

Rich

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devondynosoar118

Nov 15 2012 13:22

Only Americans call them "frogs" so a PW engineer told me! I use either SEEPs with switches or a mechanical rod with a switch on the end to change the polarity. All my points are modified with cross bonding as well. Glad the bulldog got finished.

You can also fit switches to the bottom of gem or MSE lever frames, either to switch polarity or activate solenoids, I have not tried this but have seen some very neat lever frames done this way on here. The method of operation above sounded very sociable too. Look forward to the next entry! Wish my blog was behind my actual modelling progress, just have not had a block of time lately to do much needed finishing.

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relaxinghobby

Nov 23 2012 12:54

I live 'oop North', and dispite my enthusiasm for the ideal Layout to aim for I have only a 4 ft long shunting layout. But. It has 5 sidings where wagons can be spotted so operation of the shunting puzzle type can be carried out.

 

I've started to cut wood and mdf to build an extension that will nearly double the size of the layout and increase operational potential by adding more sidings and so destinations for wagon and a fiddle yard so wagons can be exchanged for new ones.

 

Trains will then be able to run from the top of the chest of draws to the book shelf next to it and a time table can then be devised to help vary the operation.

 

So far this extension project has progressed only slowly. Wagon building has been my main area of the hobby and I have enough to cover all the track several times over.

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Weekend Engineering Works

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-15383-weekend-engineering-works/

 

 

 

A Bridge Too Far??

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-15592-a-bridge-too-far/

 

 

 

Cross Country

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-15642-cross-country/

 

 

 

Dumb and Dumb(bell)er

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-15652-dumb-and-dumbbeller/

 

 

 

 

Permenant Way Returns

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16007-permenant-way-returns/

 

 

 

Loops, Double Junctions and Lighting

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16122-loops-double-junctions-and-lighting/

 

 

 

Inclined To Be Happy

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16138-inclined-to-be-happy/

 

 

 

Superelevation

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16174-superelevation/

 

 

 

Gone Loopy

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16201-gone-loopy/

 

 

 

In A Flap About Superelevation

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16211-in-a-flap-about-superelevation/

 

 

 

Newton Purcell - All Change For Evenley

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16324-newton-purcell-all-change-for-evenley/

 

 

 

Full Circle

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16327-full-circle/

 

 

 

Taking Control

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1225/entry-16454-taking-control/

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Blimey all that wiring.... This looks to be quite a project, interesting to see that you are sticking with DC, rather than going for DCC.

 

I look forward to seeing the trains running....

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Thanks Neal.

 

I thought about DCC but I already had the controllers, there is the cost of going to sound, and I really want to keep the feeling of being signalmen first and foremost and drivers as the secondary operation. DCC makes you the driver.

 

But the lure of sound is strong and I suspect I'll change over in years to come.

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Hi Richard, given your interest in Buckingham and Peter Denny you may (if you haven't already) like to check the great discussion about this great layout and modeller on Tony Wrights RM Web thread, including commentary by Tony Gee, the new owner and guardian of the iconic layout and some wonderful photos Tony has taken of the layout in the past. All great stuff.

 

regards, Andy R

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It's all downhill from here.....

 

 

I've installed the control panel for Banbury and Charlton Junction. It is wired up but there is no diode matrix yet, so the storage yard loops points are still manual. There are also no other panels to connect to. I also put the two old Duettes behind it. One runs the controller, the other will run the CDU for the loop points. The other outputs will drive the bells.

 

post-15300-0-60879200-1441122083.jpg

 

post-15300-0-27788800-1441122303.jpg

 

 

The storage loop points will always be out of sight, so function is important, not the looks. So I have wired the frogs above board and they are switched by micro switches. These points still have their centre-over springs as they are operated by solenoids. Ugly, but hopefully effective.

 

post-15300-0-57378000-1441125510.jpg

 

 

It was then time to link the continuous runs to Evenley. I never got this far on MK1.

 

I've done it my normal way: gluing foam underlay (meant for laminate flooring) with PVA, then gluing the track down with PVA.

 

post-15300-0-33401500-1441124710_thumb.jpg

 

post-15300-0-40538900-1441124799_thumb.jpg

 

post-15300-0-15837000-1441125813.jpg

 

 

To create curves, I don't glue the foam down at first. I use screws to hold the track in situ whilst its glued down. When dry, I turn the whole curve over and glue packing shims below the outside rail of each track. When these are dry, I glue it in place making sure the foam between the shims sticks down to create the camber / cant or superelevation.

 

post-15300-0-15955300-1441125692.jpg

 

post-15300-0-59165500-1441125734.jpg

 

post-15300-0-77862100-1441126640.jpg

post-15300-0-76888400-1441125906.jpg

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Hi Richard, given your interest in Buckingham and Peter Denny you may (if you haven't already) like to check the great discussion about this great layout and modeller on Tony Wrights RM Web thread, including commentary by Tony Gee, the new owner and guardian of the iconic layout and some wonderful photos Tony has taken of the layout in the past. All great stuff.

 

regards, Andy R

Andy, I took your advice and have contacted Tony.

 

Thanks

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Apologies if its stated in one of the blog posts... I'm intrigued about the inclines... what height are they and over what length do they get to that height.

 

Clearly nosey / comparing notes due to my different levels....

 

Thanks Neal.

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Apologies if its stated in one of the blog posts... I'm intrigued about the inclines... what height are they and over what length do they get to that height.

 

Clearly nosey / comparing notes due to my different levels....

 

Thanks Neal.

No prblem Neal.

 

There is 3" height difference between the continuous runs (which are on the level) and Evenley. The incline between the two, which I am just laying, is 1:60 after the transitions. I think. I'll check tomorrow. I was hoping for 1:75 but couldn't achieve it.

 

The reverse curves at the top are mostly level, but the transition starts on the second curve. The curve onto the lifting flap is on the incline and I am hoping the superelevation will help. People say to avoid curves on inclines. I have yet to try out what locos will pull what stock. My longest passenger will be 5 coaches and if goods can get to 15 wagons I will be happy. Whilst I have a Castle, Star and Saint, I have quite a few 4-4-0s and smaller, so I anticipate having to add lead to the locos. I owe a lot to Ray Longsheds of Sixties Snapshot for good advice on all this.

 

There will be a very slight incline from Evenley to Buckingham West, but nothing serious to note. There will however be a steeper one on the branch to Brackley Road. I think that will be about 1:50, but no more than 2 or 3 coach trains will go up and freight will be short too.

 

I note you are up to 6 coaches and have steeper inclines I think. I also think you have more than 3" height don't you? Presumably so you can get in to attend to stock. I don't have any lines permanently over others (such as station over loops). Mk1 had, but I've avoided it this time. My lines just cross over.

 

How is the Powerbase working?

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Buckingham West ....the birth

 

 

Today, with a day off work I set about finishing the curve towards the bottom of the incline which passes onto the lifting flap. It's rather an involved and tedious procedure to set up the superelevation accross a join. Rather than through it again, please refer to "In A Flap About Superelevation" above.

 

The rest of my time was making the baseboard for Buckingham West which occupies the centre of the room. It needs an extension on the rear to allow for longer platforms and sidings. It's a simple 8 x 4 sheet of ply, but its now on a second set of legs. Like the idiot I am, I made the first set the same height as the continuous run instead of being 3" higher so the line from Evenley can cross Charlton Junctions and enter Buckingham West. I nearly secured it to the lifting flap as well!

 

Now I will start playing with points, track and a 5 coach train to see how the station can be formed.

 

 

post-15300-0-51691600-1441212976_thumb.jpg

 

post-15300-0-80280400-1441213005_thumb.jpg

 

post-15300-0-66294500-1441213032_thumb.jpg

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.......ll be a very slight incline from Evenley to Buckingham West, but nothing serious to note. There will however be a steeper one on the branch to Brackley Road. I think that will be about 1:50, but no more than 2 or 3 coach trains will go up and freight will be short too.

 

I note you are up to 6 coaches and have steeper inclines I think. I also think you have more than 3" height don't you? Presumably so you can get in to attend to stock. I don't have any lines permanently over others (such as station over loops). Mk1 had, but I've avoided it this time. My lines just cross over.

 

How is the Powerbase working?

 

Powerbase is all laid, but at the moment, not in use as you get to the bottom of the incline and (today) run out of track. Hopefully I can lay a load more this weekend and then see if I can get it working.

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  • 1 month later...

ITS ALL DOWNHILL FROM HERE

 

Well thats the last join across the lifting flap for some time - I'm pleased to say. The fact is that I made a pigs ear of the first attempt on the incline join and had to do it again. I used copper clad that was too wide, so the track without sleepers was far too long. Because I only solder one rail in place first and solder the second once the copper is fixed in situ, there is scope for the track to go out of gauge. The other 3 joins are fine, but this one is on the incline, on a curve and superelevated. But the main reason is that I was rushing. I didn't ensure that the ply on each side of the join was level: I assumed. Only when I glued and screwed the copper clad down, did I see the problem. I should have gone back to square one at that point, but I thought I could build up one side with solder. I did, but in the process strict gauge was lost. Too many pieces of stock objected in the only way they know! I tried to realign, but couldn't melt all the solder at once. The problems were getting worse, so I ripped up the corner, chucked it and started again with narrower strips of copper clad, so the length of track without sleepers is far less. This time sucess.

 

So that's it. The incline is linked to the continuous runs. It is also linked to Evenley - significant progress!!!

 

post-15300-0-60021400-1445462335_thumb.jpg

 

The second attempt at the join.

 

 

post-15300-0-72362100-1445462374_thumb.jpg

 

The two curved joins. Both are superelevated.

 

 

post-15300-0-27310700-1445462424_thumb.jpg

 

The view from the door. The continous run is on the left. The incline is on the right. It then crosses the cont. run at the far left and Evenley is across the far wall. The baseboard (covered in junk) on the right is for Buckingham West.

 

I have no idea what I am going to do scenically with the lifting flap.

 

Now I can move onto electrics and test the locos out on the incline.

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That looks great... and puts my humble efforts to shame...

 

Out of interest, what is the distance from the door to the far wall?

 

Thanks,

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Neal,

 

I would hardly call your layouts humble efforts!! The scenic work alone on your last layout was inspiring and I can already see that this one is going to be good. The station layout looks very convincing even at this stage.

 

My room is roughly 17' 6 x 13' with the longest dimension from the door to Evenley. The incline starts about 2' 6" to the right of the bottom photo and finishes just before the bridge where it S bends over the continuous run. I was aiming for 1:75, but after transitions, it's turned out to be about 1:60.

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THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING....

 

Well the time had to come. Would the locos pull 5 coaches easily up the incline?

 

I am exceedingly relieved to report that all the building over a year plus, has not been for nothing. My Bachmann Director fairly romped up the bank with 5 coaches in tow.

 

I have quite a thing about 4-4-0s (no idea why), and was rather concerned that they would not have the pulling power. All the other 4-4-0s are still packed away, so I know I shouldn't count my chickens, but if the Director can do it so well, the others should too. Some might need a little more weight, but hey....

 

Just to check, I put the 64xx on the front and I assumed it would struggle. Not a bit of it!

 

Both locos also had no issue starting the train from a standstill on the bank.

 

Happy boy!!!!!

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I am sure that Peter Denny would be highly honoured that his layout and his writings are still inspiring modellers after all these years.

 

Funnily enough I was thinking about things the other day and decided that even if Buckingham Central had been a modern layout, built using RTR track and stock, it would still be a fantastic layout and great fun to operate.

 

The fact that it was all pretty much all scratchbuilt was a bonus rather than what made it a superbly designed layout.

 

Now it seems as if somebody else has put just that thought into a layout project.

 

Many people will probably be aware but Peter Denny almost ended up modelling the GWR rather than the GCR, so you are on sound ground there too! One of the first things he made was a GWR 6 wheeled Syphon which he took along to a Model Railway Club meeting, where some GWR officianado types pointed out a number of errors.

 

So he looked for another railway that nobody knew anything about, had brown/cream carriages, no outside valve gear and wooden signal posts rather than lattices. And so Buckingham ended up GC instead of GW.

 

Good luck with the project. I will be following with interest.

 

Tony Gee

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Thanks Tony. I didn't know about the GWR connection.

 

I'm really looking forward to meeting you and experiencing the original Buckingham later in the year.

 

I am also looking forward to operating my layout with some mates. Its been 30 years in mental and paper planning!

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I owe a lot to my local club: High Wycombe and District Model Railway Society. They have inspired me to get on with it and build this monster, but have also provided information and assistance both directly and indirectly. I have learned so much simply by absorbing the many years of experience of what to do and what not to do. I thoroughly advocate joining a club.

 

Every Year we host one of the best regarded one day model railway shows in the South East. It is in its 43rd year! This year's WYCRAIL 15 Exhibition will take place at the now established venue of Cressex Community School, Holmers Lane, High Wycombe HP 12 4UD on Saturday 7th November.

 

There will be 31 high quality layouts and full trade support.

 

There are free buses Wycombe railway station and the town centre to the exhibition.

 

Visit www.hwdmrs.org.uk.

 

Oh yes..... and we sell very very good cakes!!! apparently!

 

Thank you.

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