Jump to content
 

Revolution Ben
 Share

Recommended Posts

I agree with Tom that GF may have muddied the waters a bit by announcing their 319. But we will probably waiting a while for that based on their current record

I would be more concerned about the Class 319 surviving at all if the the 320/321 does not proceed. Bachmann 350s are available very cheaply at the moment, and the limited sphere of operation of the 319s proposed by Bachmann at the moment could hardly expect to sell better than the wide ranging 320/321. Almost certainly the 319 would be at a higher price level if it was not culled. The latest news on the 319 was that is still in the Research and Design phase, so no big money spent on tooling yet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...and the limited sphere of operation of the 319s proposed by Bachmann at the moment...

Not that limited - they're "oop North" now, and will be in Wales soon with the Flex rebuilds. Decent set of livery choices too and they are going to be with us for quite a while yet (possibly longer than the 320/321/322).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that limited - they're "oop North" now, and will be in Wales soon with the Flex rebuilds. Decent set of livery choices too and they are going to be with us for quite a while yet (possibly longer than the 320/321/322).

Bachmann have not announced the wider range yet. Agreed the potential is there, but........

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Hi folks

 

As Ben said, the 320/321 project needs a spur to get sufficient orders to justify tooling - what we can't and won't do is authorise tooling if we are not confident that the orders will justify it.  Alternative financing doesn't really help for two reasons - if people won't sign up now why would that change in the future? Secondly if we did look for alternative financing then our business model has to change and that means increased costs (and subsequently higher prices).

 

I'm not sure that the reluctance of people to commit is down to waiting for Pendolinos - it has not stopped a large uptake in 92s! Of course there is always a risk that some of our projects (and those of others) may have taken some sales away but not the level that we have seen (or not!).  It is inevitable that people's interests and finances change from expressions of interest to placing an order - that is perfectly normal, but things tend to average themselves out ie for every person that drops out our experience with other projects is that a substantial number more come in (that didn't know about the expressions of interest).  The net result is sales equal or exceed expressions of interest - sadly for the 320/321 that hasn't materialised yet.  We're really grateful to everyone that has stepped forward and placed or increased their order - all gratefully received, but there is still a large rump of customers who expressed interest that haven't converted into orders.

 

As we've previously said we're really reluctant (nothing to do with commercial sensitivity) to say how close we are to a particular target as different people take the messages in different ways - some will hold off as they fear it won't happen and others will pitch in. It is much fairer to say that we're not at the order level we need and give people deadlines - in this case once we know when the Pendolinos are ready to ship we will set a deadline for the 320/321 tooling decision.

 

Cheers, Mike

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I would be more concerned about the Class 319 surviving at all if the the 320/321 does not proceed. Bachmann 350s are available very cheaply at the moment, and the limited sphere of operation of the 319s proposed by Bachmann at the moment could hardly expect to sell better than the wide ranging 320/321. Almost certainly the 319 would be at a higher price level if it was not culled. The latest news on the 319 was that is still in the Research and Design phase, so no big money spent on tooling yet.

 

I'd be very surprised if Bachmann cancelled the 319 because the 321 hasn't managed to quite make it over the line yet. Their business model is obviously very different to Ben & Mike's and it is rare for Bachmann to cancel a model completely. In fact the last such occasion I can think of is the Class 222 several years ago.

 

Bachmann themselves have not actually released a price for the 319 as far as I can see, so we don't know how it will compare to the 321. Personally if I was in the market for an EMU of this era and wasn't worried about the specific class, I'd be going for the 321 because the price is a known quantity and unlikely to experience the same rises that Bachmann seem susceptible to given the extended development periods of their models these days. 

 

Tom.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that the reluctance of people to commit is down to waiting for Pendolinos - it has not stopped a large uptake in 92s! Of course there is always a risk that some of our projects (and those of others) may have taken some sales away but not the level that we have seen (or not!).  It is inevitable that people's interests and finances change from expressions of interest to placing an order - that is perfectly normal, but things tend to average themselves out ie for every person that drops out our experience with other projects is that a substantial number more come in (that didn't know about the expressions of interest).  The net result is sales equal or exceed expressions of interest - sadly for the 320/321 that hasn't materialised yet.  We're really grateful to everyone that has stepped forward and placed or increased their order - all gratefully received, but there is still a large rump of customers who expressed interest that haven't converted into orders.

 

 

I'd beg to differ on this point, whilst I have commited to the 321s from my personal perspective I am currently holding off on a couple of 92s as I have reached "peak pre-order" for revolutions products. I have been very impressed with your attitude and results so far however, there is a point at which I need something to have arrived before I commit more money to more projects.

 

A second thought would be, has the impending demise of the prototypes had an effect? London Midland, Greater Anglia, Thameslink and possibly Northern all have their replacements on order. Modern image modellers might be holding off from big ticket items they feel aren't notable enough to keep on the books and won't be suitable.

 

Re. the 319 - its saving grace might end up being the 769 "Flex" programme. Given that Bachmann have not tooled up their model they have the opportunity to design a model including the diesel engined variants shortly to hit the Network, perfect excuse to run it "off the wires".

 

Interesting, on the continent there has been a recent surge of EMU models in N gauge with Piko and Brawa making a move into the market covering some Stadlers, Alstom ET440, Bombardier Talents and Twindexx. It'll be interesting to see what follows as there does not seem to have been a large contignent of EMUs available before depsite the number in use.

Edited by m0rris
Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with the Farish 350, excellent model as it is, is currently there's nothing really suitable to run alongside it. That'll soon change with the Pendolino, and hopefully the Farish 319 and Revolution 320/321 when they make it to market.

 

I can see there being more of a market for other EMU's once these are available. Other than the sticking point of installing OHLE on layouts, EMU's make good models as they are usually 3-4 coaches in length which in 'n' gauge is usually less than 60cm, a good size even for compact layouts.

 

What I can't understand, even though I wouldn't personally be in the market for one, is why nobody has taken a punt on a modern 3rd rail EMU in n gauge? They avoid the OHLE issue, and there are plenty to go at. Farish may look at doing the 450 at some point. 

 

Going back to the 320/321 project, I know C&M of Carlisle ordered some TEA's to sell at retail price, have Revolution been approaching retailers on this project to see if they're interested in taking 'x' amount of each livery to boost the numbers? Would a retailer entertain pledging money up front for a project that isn't at tooling yet or would they only be interested in coming in once it's over the line?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Going back to the 320/321 project, I know C&M of Carlisle ordered some TEA's to sell at retail price, have Revolution been approaching retailers on this project to see if they're interested in taking 'x' amount of each livery to boost the numbers? Would a retailer entertain pledging money up front for a project that isn't at tooling yet or would they only be interested in coming in once it's over the line?

We have already indicated to Revolution Trains what quantities of the 320s/321s we are interested in acquiring. Revolution Trains have intimated that our terms are slightly different for future projects, but we are happy to proceed on the new basis.

 

If anyone wants to order from us, we are able to guarantee orders taken up until the Revolution Trains order deadline. After that, it depends on whether we have ordered any extras for casual stock, and these can then be reserved. Payment to us is due when the model is despatched, thereby allowing would-be customers to spread their cash flow if they want to buy multiples of a product

 

Mike Parsons

C&M Models, Carlisle

Link to post
Share on other sites

What I can't understand, even though I wouldn't personally be in the market for one, is why nobody has taken a punt on a modern 3rd rail EMU in n gauge? They avoid the OHLE issue, and there are plenty to go at. Farish may look at doing the 450 at some point.

 

Without wanting to take this too far down Wishlist land the 450s omission is a bit of a strange one but it is also one where what do you run with it? The highly ropey Farish 158 or the short lived SWT 170. I'd definitely be interested in one though - equally, the 360s are not omnipresent but it seems a shame that the only way we can get them is through bashing a 350 about.

 

The problem with EMUs is the vast number of small variations between them all - only recently in a discussion with another RMWebber did I have the news broken to me that MK3 multiple units have a varying array of door widths - a nice little curve ball. Which then leads onto the modern ones and their problems - whilst the Electrostar family is significantly less diverse than the Aventra family already is (I highly doubt we will see any RTR N Gauge Aventras, every class so far seems to have major variations) there are still major differences- ribbon glazing vs individual windows etc.  For tooling purposes, there are 5 major variants in the family - and even if you select the later model bodyshell with the individual windows which covers 377/6 to 387 there's still going to be important variations.

 

If you were to do such a unit, by my guestimate you could possibly squeeze Southern, GWR, Gatwick, Anglia/Stanstead, Great Northern, C2C liveries out it but you once again run into the "what do I run them with" conundrum - theres not much GWR other than HSTs, there's just a 171 for Southern, no other TSGN units, not much in the way of Anglia stock unless you bash and repaint a Mk3 rake with a farish 90 and C2C is it's own little bubble where the main class is absent. All of which leads into the elephant in the corner - if you were to chuck £xxx,000 into a new mutliple unit, you probably want it to be like a Pendolino - fast, big, flashy, running on multiple lines and have a massive amount of publicity chucked at it i.e. the Class 800s!  Your rate of return most likely further increases with less risk if you put your unit money into a loco and bring out a flash new 90, 59, 50 with lots of lovely livery variations and widespread use.

 

All in all, I really hope that the splash the Pendolinos make at their launch gives N Gauge a much needed boost which in turn helps the 320s. N Gauge hasn't had a big "pick me up" for a while with a number of projects stuck in the pipeline for quite some time, but once the ball starts rolling again with a series of high profile, high quality products rolling onto our 9mm tracks I really hope the 320 will get its nudge over the finishing line and my Scotrail units can finally be joined by an RTR scottish electric!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got several 321s on order, and if it would make the difference, might even be willing to stump up or another few! 

 

I would suggest that the lack of clarity over liveries has probably worked against this - there has probably been too much choice overall, and the trimming back of different options hasn't been that clear or assertive. With so many "maybes" I've held back from ordering the extra 1 or 2 I could probably be persuaded to order for this reason. Would an extra order for a Silverlink livery unit with NSE as second choice be worth it? Or should I just order and extra NSE? Would making the "wrong" choice on this make a difference to the likelihood of the whole project going forward? I'm left wondering, and so haven't added any more yet.

 

My instinct would be - and this would work on me - that a very straightforward "these four liveries are going forward - order now or the project will be cancelled" would have a much better result than the continued vagueness.

 

So, time to either move one or two of the "Other liveries" to the main confirmed page and kill the rest, or just kill all of the "other liveries"? I can see the logic in keeping options open, but I can't help the feeling that the resulting message is just too vague to stimulate people to commit. 

 

Justin

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Hi Justin,

 

I completely agree.

 

This is still a learning process for Mike and me (and for anyone, given how new crowdfunding is) and I think we got it wrong with the 321 liveries.

 

We obviously want to give everyone what they want, but at the same time we need to manage the project - cold heartedly, if necessary - to ensure it goes ahead. I think in this case we have fallen between two stools.

 

This is certainly something Mike and I have discussed. We have culled some liveries already, and once the Pendolinos are here we may need to take a more ruthless view of Strathclyde, Silverlink and plain white as these are the ones that are close, but not there yet.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited by Ben A
Link to post
Share on other sites

HI Ben and Mike,

 

Would there be any mileage in bringing an additional retailler on board who would be willing to take a batch to get this project across the line? I’m sure people would be buying them up like there’s no tomorrow once they see the completed models and high standards that you have achieved in terms of the level of detailing.

 

I’ve already ordered 7 NSE sets and if I order any more, my wife might leave me! Ha ha!! (Maybe I could sneak another one or two in!)

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

 

P.S - i think the next model should be the class 90. I reckon you’d sell a bucket load like the class 92.

Edited by cornish trains jez
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

As an appointed Revolution Trains retailer, I will obviously order whatever I get as pre-orders, and then will order further examples to satisfy what I anticipate will be the demand after Revolution close the order book. With the TEAs and Pendolinos, I have under-estimated the demand on both these models.

 

Therefore I will state the obvious, if people want to add extra models to pay for later than they would with Revolution Trains, we are happy to hear from them.

 

C&M Models

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Hi Jeremy,

 

Going forward, with each model we have had more retailers come on board. And their support is enormously helpful both financially and reputationally.

 

But so far it has been the individual crowd-funders who do the heavy lifting to get the model into tooling.

 

But in response to Mike's post above, I am really happy if our models can do something small to support the retail trade as well as our early adopters.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited by Ben A
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold

Hello all,

 

It was good to see people at the Warley National Model Railway exhibition at the NEC at the weekend, and one of our key messages was to let people know that the 320/321 project is struggling.

 

We aren't sure why this is, since when we opened it for expressions of interest there was no shortage.

 

It's true that humble units like the 320s and 321s don't have the glamour of the Pendo, but they are an important part of the railway and have a certain charm of their own. We also think our prices offer excellent value for a complete train with the features we are proposing.

 

We are grateful to those who've told us they've ordered a second or third model, but the people we really need to reach are those who expressed an interest but so far have chosen not to order.

 

post-420-0-54437000-1511947708_thumb.png

 

We are optimistic that Pendolino deliveries will see an upturn in orders, as that is when people will have in their hands an example of the quality we know Rapido can deliver.

 

For this reason we will not make a final decision on whether to continue this model, or refund everyone, until March 31st.

 

See the Revolution website to order and for more information and images of this and other projects:

 

http://www.revolutiontrains.com/news/

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
  • RMweb Premium

Silverlink was ran between 1997 to 2007 so it and pendolinos spent a good 5 years side by side and you can run Virgin 86's 87's & 90's alongside Silverlink units too (this is a totally selfish post as my choice is silverlink and I want it to succeed :-p )

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Silverlink was ran between 1997 to 2007 so it and pendolinos spent a good 5 years side by side and you can run Virgin 86's 87's & 90's alongside Silverlink units too (this is a totally selfish post as my choice is silverlink and I want it to succeed :-p )

 

Hi Boco,

 

Thanks for that - I must admit I hadn't realised Silverlink units ran alongside the Pendos for so long.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

During the boredom of Christmas afternoon, and after a few months of work being so hectic I haven't had the chance to even think about trains, I decided to check in and see how this project was getting along. I was quite pleased\confused to see the 321 project page on the RevolutioN site said "The Class 320 and Class 321 EMU project has reached the minimum level of interest and will go ahead.  Look out for updates on our news pages.  We have opened orders for the 320/321 with a deposit option."

 
However, I then noticed this was followed by "At the end of January 2017 we will be rationalising some of the liveries on offer to reduce the options to the liveries most likely to be produced.". So clearly this particular product page on your website hasn't been updated in over a year.   If I hadn't known this wasn't the case from reading RMWeb and magazine articles recently, and the trawled back down through the blog, I wouldn't have realised the project is still in jeopardy and in need of more orders!
 
I wonder how many others might have been considering placing an order to support the project after reading the publicity, but decided "nah, its OK, the page says it has enough to go forward"? I don't think you're doing the project any favours with this kind of error - which makes me very sad indeed. 
 
I'm placing an order for a fourth unit now though! 
 
J
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...