Revolution proposing Class 21 and 29 in N Gauge

[scottystitch]

Ben, youve said to keep the questions coming so not sure if thats in general or just regarding the announcements so far but what would you say to new liveries of Dapols superb Class 86?

Specifically I was thinking of InterCity Executive livery as opposed to the Swallow livery which would match up nicely to the Farish Mk2f coaches due out in 2016.  Exactly the sort of loco that would have hauled them on the WCML.

 

Im not sure if its the RRP of previous Dapol runs of this model that translated into alleged slow sales, the livery choices that were to blame (including the lack of early version tooling) or lack of interest in N gauge AC locos generally as everyone has a different take on this but certainly pricewise every time I see one on ebay they always sell.  Somebody wants them and buys them.......Im sure interest would be high an executive liveried version and personally I think that it would be a shame if the model was left just with its original 5 liveries plus the C&M specials in BR blue when the tooling was so good to begin with.  Fair enough if modellers felt the basic shape was a poor effort like the Heljan 00 model but the Dapol 2mm version was a spot on effort.

 

Besides CornishTrains needs some for his model of Euston!   Surely thats justification enough to put it up on the white board at RevolutioN?! 

 

Essentially it would be a pledge situation for a new livery on an existing tooling - a premium I would pay rather than buy a used one cheap on ebay and then try and repaint it myself to a high standard.  My only concern is the look of those oversized pantographs but maybe thats taking things too far.

 

86101 Sir Williams Stanier FRS in Blue might also make a good limited run and can be modelled on the Hull Trains short rake services that ran on the ECML and of course the WCML in its earlier days minus the roof bottles etc. Just putting some ideas out there.

At the current price of £50 each, perhaps you'd be able to get them resprayed professionally, probably even weathered into the deal, and still come out no worse off than the cost of the actual retail price of a Diesel or Electric locomotive? (circa £100)

[Revolution Mike]

Never say never, but reliveries of 86s are not something that are on our radar at the moment.  We have plenty on our plate with the 4 projects we have announced, though of course the success (or failure) of the 2 newest projects - the 21/29 and 320/321 - will determine whether we have to re-address our strategy in the future.

 

It is fair to say that we have a few ideas for future projects - again looking to fill gaps in the market.

 

Cheers, Mike

[scottystitch]

Out of curiosity, the uptake was 120 after 3 days, where are we after 14?

 

Is there a distinct split between 21 and 29?

 

I have pledged for four 21s.

[Revolution Ben]

Out of curiosity, the uptake was 120 after 3 days, where are we after 14?

 

Is there a distinct split between 21 and 29?

 

I have pledged for four 21s.

 

Hi Scotty,

 

Last I looked we were just over 200 on the 21s and 29s combined, with the 29s in the lead individually.

 

Because this is on our own website the time limit is of our choosing, so we can certainly go as far as Warley by which time the pledge period will have been 75 days - this is 15 days longer than Kickstarter's longest permitted funding period of 60 days.

 

We would obviously hope to reach many people at Warley, but once that's done it'll probably be time to decide on a cut off date.  Hopefully that will focus the minds of any waverers.  Then if we do not reach our total so be it.

 

At the moment the 321 is some way ahead, incidentally, which I find surprising even though that's the model I want!

 

Of course, as with the Pendolino there's no reason to delay making a pledge - we don't take any money at this stage and the sooner we get to the total the sooner we can get the proper development started!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ben A

[Suffolk Rob]

Hi Ben & Mike

 

Are you able to give an update on levels of interest?

 

Fully understand if you can't

 

Rob

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi Rob,

 

We are about a fifth of the way there. I think the important thing is for people to learn about the project. We have Warley coming up in November, and it should be in the next issue of the N Gauge Journal, by which time we will have decided on a cut off date which should help to focus minds. There are probably quite a few people who are interested but haven't actually taken the time to go to the website and register, since there is no official deadline at present.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Suffolk Rob]

Hi Ben & Mike

 

 

Are you able to give a further update on progress? Did the news items in the mags have much of an impact on orders? Sorry to ask again but my asking is as much about bumping the topic!

 

Do you have a presence/stand at Warley? Hoping to get along and would like to say hello

 

Rob

[Revolution Mike]

Hi Rob

 

Not a huge amount to report on the 21/29 - we are just under a quarter of the expressions of interest that we would need to make it happen.

 

We are sharing a stand at Warley with Rapido (C12) so please feel free to pop along and introduce yourself.

 

Cheers, Mike

[McRuss]

Hello Mike and Ben,

 

any news on the Class 21/29?

 

Markus

[Revolution Mike]

Hello folks

 

Just a quick reminder that expressions of interest in the 21/29 close on 31 January 2016.  We will announce the results shortly afterwards on our website.

 

I won't lie and say that the 21/29 has been an overwhelming success (I wish I could say differently) but if you are interested in either a 21 or a 29 please let us know ASAP as it could make all the difference.

 

If you are interested in either a 21 or a 29 please express your interest on our website by 31 January.

 

Cheers, Mike

[ukpepsi]

Hi Mike & Ben,

 

Sorry that I posted this is the wrong place:

 

I'm sure that there would be less research required with the early Diesel as Dapol has already done the vast majority of it already with the 4mm version.

 

So, once again, can I ask any waverers who model the transition era in N, pleased pledge your support and get the 21/29 over the finish line before it's too late.   

I've put down for 2 units

 

Ray "Pepsi" Colla

[Robert Shrives]

Only a week to go so get on with it and pledge - I have two on the lists ! You know you want to!!

 

 

Robert 

[Roy L S]

I've put down for two as well. If anyone wants one of these and hasn't expressed an interest yet now is the time to do so. I suspect that realistically this may be the only opportunity there will be to have this iconic loco RTR in N. 

 

If you should fancy one later you have the choice of chancing your arm with either a Langley kit or a Worsley Works etch. By the time you'd bought kit, chassis, paint, detailing bits and invested hours of your time for most it is still unlikely to reach current RTR standards and will quite possibly cost more....

 

So personally I think it is a "no brainer" and I know which route I'd prefer!!!!

 

Roy

[Revolution Mike]

Hi Dan

 

What other reasons are you thinking of? We are very open to ideas to improve things.

 

Incidentally we haven't failed yet!

 

Cheers Mike

[spackz]

Could it be the distinct lack of information and updates from the OO version over the past 6 years that may have put people off. We seem to get updates regarding most of Dapols other projects, the Class 21/29 is politely lacking any decent information, people have probably lost confidence. Which is a shame for you N gauge modellers.

[csiedmo]

Ive had a very poor experience with Dapol and will not buy another item from them again. (15 class 73s all with bad running, paint blemishes and added fire!)

I also model OO and planned on  buying someof these, if them get relaunched with another maker then I still will.

 

If the 21s turned out to have added fire, at least it would be prototypical

[Revolution Ben]

Ive had a very poor experience with Dapol and will not buy another item from them again. (15 class 73s all with bad running, paint blemishes and added fire!)

I also model OO and planned on  buying someof these, if them get relaunched with another maker then I still will.

 

Hi Dan,

 

I am sorry you've had a bad experience. I have Dapol 22s, 86s, HSTs and Westerns that are exceptional models.  My Dapol 66s don't run quite as well as my Farish ones, but then two of the Farish ones have had to have split gears repaired.  And the running of the newer Dapol ones is improved.

 

For the 21/9 I anticipate that we would be looking at using the shape of the 22 on the cabs, and a chassis not dissimilar to the 86.   We would also specify that the LEDs are on the chassis block, using plastic light guides to get to the actual light apertures, and not mounted on the bodyshell, to avoid having wires connecting the two.

 

We selected Dapol because of the great job they made on the shape of the 22, and because as they are producing a model in OO there are significant savings to be had. We have seen CADs of the Dapol OO 21/9 - so there is progress - but they are not ours to share.

 

And if this loco fails it fails and so be it.  We have lost little (other than design time I put in for free and the cost of some flyers) but have been able to confirm for sure that there isn't yet a market for such a model; saving us and Dapol a lot of cash and stress further down the line.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Dan,

 

We gave a lot of thought to which projects to offer and which manufacturers to choose since we don't want to overstretch either ourselves, our credibility or the patience of the market.

 

Of the manufacturers who currently produce N gauge models, Bachmann currently have a well-documented policy of only working on OEM projects with established retailers, so they are not an option.  Hornby/Arnold appear not to be massively interested in producing more British N (and all their N gauge models are designed in Spain by the former Electrotren people.)  

 

In my experience the vast majority of Dapol products are very good.  Class 22, 52, 86, 58, 56, 121, 156, 221 - I have at least one of all of these and all are excellent.

 

I am sorry you have had trouble with your 73s but they are Dapol's oldest model and as I do not run any I don't share that experience.  I accept what you're saying, but balancing one model type against all the others, I have confidence that a good NBL type 2 Bo-Bo model could be produced.  

 

I agree with you that they have had issues with liveries but that is where we and our customers come in as livery samples are crowd-checked before approval for production.

 

Another reason for selecting Dapol was that we knew they were planning a Class 29 and that they had sourced (after a *lot* of digging) drawings of the type.  We knew they already had the CAD for the 22 ends, which looks right.  Starting from scratch with another manufacturer would have been a bigger risk, in my view.

 

It may fail because the market just is not there; if so, then so be it.  But I would not hesitate to use Dapol again in another proposal if there were clear benefits to doing so.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Karhedron]

just saying Ben. I think if you had chosen one of the less greedy manufacturers who have a reputation for a quality product (there are at lease 3 British companies excluding Dapol) it might have done better. but maybe it wouldn't have.

I think you are being unfair to Dapol. They may have had some QC blips but I would never accuse them of greed. Unlike Bachmann, they have not done any big-step price hikes in response to increased costs from China.

 

I have also had several good locos from Dapol with no problems. I have only had one dud which was promptly repaired under warranty. I have also had a damaged loco from Farish and a burnout from Peco.

 

RevolutioN are already working with Rapido on the Pendolino. Bachmann/Farish are not interested at the moment. Dave Jones is making good progress on the products he has announced but has not yet released and N Gauge model so has no reputation in this scale yet. Peco are out of the loco market after the poor reception of the 2251.

 

So Ben and Mike effectively had a choice between Dapol (who have 00 CADs for the 21/29 and a very nice N gauge 22) or Rapido who would be starting from scratch. Dapol is the logical choice and I don't think the choice of manufacturer in this case has anything to do with the level of interest expressed in the project.

[John M Upton]

On the N gauge side, aside from a Class 27 whose lights pointed in the wrong direction and a HST trailer which needed a roof swap with a LHS mk3 to get the roof colours to match I have not had any major issues with Dapol products.

[Karhedron]

yes but have Dapol produced anything good since Dave left?

I have one of their new Granges which came out about 6 months ago and I am pleased with it. Granted it is an evolution of the Hall and 2884 but it is a welcome addition to the range.

 

Mechanically it is fine and the level of detail is excellent. Unfortunately Dapol have made a few small livery errors which seem to be their Achilles heel but the route code discs are easily replaced with Fox ones so it is not the end of the world.

[Karhedron]

people are voting with there money. hattons say over 50% of Dapol models are returned. I have spoke to other dealers ( not that there are many) who say the same.

you were ucky with repairs many have stated how rude and unhelpful the service agent are

I have to admit that I find that 50% value extremely hard to believe. I also asked Hattons the same question a few years ago and the Dapol return rate was around 5% and pretty much the same as for Farish.

 

Things could have gone down hill since then but I simply do not believe 50% is possible. That would mean Dapol losing 50% of their income on every batch of locos. That is not profits, that is income. They would be bankrupt after a few loco runs if the return rate was anything close to that.

[Revolution Mike]

just saying Ben. I think if you had chosen one of the less greedy manufacturers who have a reputation for a quality product (there are at lease 3 British companies excluding Dapol) it might have done better. but maybe it wouldn't have.

It will be interesting to see who is brave enough to commission Dapol again after this.

The class 73, the Terrier, the TGS and the numerous other re-releases of obselete models have all been error ridden, poor and damaging for them.

 

Oh, I forgot. 3 emails yesterday to all major players posted elesewhere in this thread. No reply. Just tried phoning again 10 minutes of ringing, no pickup - same as always.

 

Wow - you really seem to have it in for Dapol with comments like greedy/obsolete etc.

 

I've got numerous Dapol 73s and haven't had any problems with them so I am surprised that you have had such a bad experience with the 73s. The TGS is only just out and I haven't got one yet.  I'm not sure what you are referring to in terms of obsolete models...

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Dan,

 

Are we talking OO or N here?

 

I have no knowledge of the OO market or its products, nor do I know much about N gauge steam models - the only ones I own are Farish Tornados.  My impression is that steam locomotives face significant challenges when it comes to running compared to diesels.

 

I have not heard of hugely different return rates for Dapol's diesel/electric models in N compared to other manufacturers from retailers I have spoken to, though Hattons are not among them.

 

I agree that Dave Jones designed some fantastic models for Dapol, and I am eagerly awaiting the first N Gauge models he releases under his own DJM brand.  I have every confidence they will be superb.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[spackz]

Ben A

 

Will you try again with this project if the OO gauge version is successful? Do you think the N gauge project would have been more successful if Dapol had something to show for all these years development apart from one front end CAD shot? Im pretty sure if buyers could see EP Samples/CADs for both the 21/29 OO versions they would be more confident with the N gauge model. I take it your not in a position to "have a word" with Dapol to release the CADs for you to use as a poster for your N gauge project.