45 ton Ransomes Crane

[Southernman46]

Having gone through this thread, am I correct in saying this model would be OK for the tinsley one? Also, does anybody have any photos of the tinsley crane and support coaches. Also, how long was the crane stationed at tinsley and was it replaced with a different one or did BR decided it didnt need one here?

I think with the sheer quality of this model does the above honestly matter ? - nobody is going to look at this crane on your layout and say "That doesn't fit in - it only worked as far as "Lower Eckythumpsville" etc ....................

[adb968008]

.

 

OF COURSE, it has an innovation - it has 9 (!!!) wheels - which other coach does ?

 

.

I hate to say the emperor has no clothes, but No it has 8 wheels, the 9th is a lump on the frame, that shaped in the form of a wheel and has some paint on it, just like the rest of the under frame detailing and pipe work. Nothing innovative there, but the marketing. I didn’t see any windshields next to the droplights either (I don’t know if it’s too trivial for a £125 coach, even if most rtr steam today has them on the footplate, going back at least a decade). Though the underneath of the bogies and frame looks very intricate compared to other models, unless i’m Repairing it upside down in a cradle, it’s a side i’ll never see.

 

Coming back to topic, a choice of the Rails coach of this steam crane, having seen both in the flash, it’s no contest where my money is going... the crane every time, i’m even debating a justification for two of them.

Edited January 5, 2018 by adb968008

[Southernman46]

... the crane every time, i’m even debating a justification for two of them.

One is never enough .....................

[GreenGiraffe22]

I'm definitely keen on the SR one, there aren't many Southern items left I want to get this year so it'll be a treat for myself whenever it gets released, mine will be working in East Sussex, not fussed if the number is right or not tbh...

[farren]

Well £90 or more likely £200~ my order is now in for 38-802.

 

The question is what would run with it? And will Bachmann be so kind to produce them.

Edited January 5, 2018 by farren

[Mark Hamlin]

How about an SECR birdcage coach in a suitable livery as a support coach for the crane?

[The Stationmaster]

I've already found out enough to know that just sticking some lining and BR markings onto the SR one won't work for me.

 

The GWR and BR(E) ones seem to get closer to what I want but I'm not going to commit myself to what is a fairly hefty chunk of expenditure until I have learned more.

 

A breakdown crane Is not something I regard as a "must have" so, if they do sell out like the Bluebell C, I'm more relaxed about missing out than buying something that isn't close enough to satisfy my wants.

 

John

 

I have now found a 1980s pic of one of the GWR cranes and basically the only 'livery' change would seem to have been the addition of some 'wasp stripes' and renumbering so as long as the GWR model is in black (which it will be) there shouldn't be a problem.  And the GWR one is, I believe, a model of a crane I actually worked with on a re-railing job so it will have a sort of sentimental attachment as well.

[Downer]

How about an SECR birdcage coach in a suitable livery as a support coach for the crane?

 

I have a picture somewhere - I'm away from home so unable to access it at the moment - of a breakdown train at Nine Elms, which does indeed include a black-painted birdcage brake. I have a feeling it's one of the shorter diagram coaches, but hey.....

[apollo 079]

Having gone through this thread, am I correct in saying this model would be OK for the tinsley one? Also, does anybody have any photos of the tinsley crane and support coaches. Also, how long was the crane stationed at tinsley and was it replaced with a different one or did BR decided it didnt need one here?

Hi

 

To answer your question, I assume that this is ADRR95214 (formerly ADE 330102). This crane remained allocated to Tinsley at the beginning of 1986 (source Platform 5 Track Machines 1986 edition) and was still listed as a steam crane (many were converted to diesel around this time). There is a photo of the crane at York in March of that year http://www.bdca.org.uk/gallery/index.php/Ransomes-and-Rapier/ADRR95214/95214-York-March-1986-John-Turner-photo, which suggests that it was either re-allocated or more likely was on its way for disposal.

 

This crane is at the NYMR now (but currently out of action, I believe), see http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7355 . It is certainly Ransome and Rapier 45 tonner and looks very much like one of the versions being produced by Bachmann (the one with the "toolboxes" mounted on the jib support runner). As the photos show it was in departmental red livery when withdrawn. Some were still black but one (ADRR95213) was repainted all over yellow, probably for Plymouth Laira's 1985 open day. If anyone has any good photos of this particular machine in yellow, I would be most interested to see.

 

Re the other vehicles in the breakdown train, Departmental Coaching Stock 1985 lists ADB975377 and ADB975419, both converted from fish vans as BTU tool vans, ADB975470 http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975470a converted from BTK/BSK M34527, ADB975488 http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975488 converted from BTK/BSK E35099. These were BTU staff and tool coach and tool and generator coach respectively. There were also ADE87380, another BTU tool van (converted from an unspecified LNER vehicle), ADE320610 (withdrawn by 1985) another BTU tool van ex GER BTK E62490E which was dumped in Tinsley Yard and finally ADM395481, also a BTU tool van converted from LMS PI BCK M6617M. This is all I can find that was allocated to or based at Tinsley at that time.

 

Kevin

Edited January 6, 2018 by apollo 079

[darren01]

I have now found a 1980s pic of one of the GWR cranes and basically the only 'livery' change would seem to have been the addition of some 'wasp stripes' and renumbering so as long as the GWR model is in black (which it will be) there shouldn't be a problem.  And the GWR one is, I believe, a model of a crane I actually worked with on a re-railing job so it will have a sort of sentimental attachment as well.

Hi Mike

You mean this one that my Dad took in 1974 at OOC.

One thing i did notice on the model are the stabilizer legs don't touch  the ground , unless they are making the legs drop down to the ground, But looking at them when he pulled them out they seemed not to, would this make the crane unstable if the jib is out at the side?. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by darren01

[TerrySVR]

Hi

 I wonder if we will get support vehicles for these cranes if my memory is correct normally a right hitch pot has of old stock, what would you like to see?

 

Terry

To answer your question, I assume that this is ADRR95214 (formerly ADE 330102). This crane remained allocated to Tinsley at the beginning of 1986 (source Platform 5 Track Machines 1986 edition) and was still listed as a steam crane (many were converted to diesel around this time). There is a photo of the crane at York in March of that year http://www.bdca.org.uk/gallery/index.php/Ransomes-and-Rapier/ADRR95214/95214-York-March-1986-John-Turner-photo, which suggests that it was either re-allocated or more likely was on its way for disposal.

 

This crane is at the NYMR now (but currently out of action, I believe), see http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7355 . It is certainly Ransome and Rapier 45 tonner and looks very much like one of the versions being produced by Bachmann (the one with the "toolboxes" mounted on the jib support runner). As the photos show it was in departmental red livery when withdrawn. Some were still black but one (ADRR95213) was repainted all over yellow, probably for Plymouth Laira's 1985 open day. If anyone has any good photos of this particular machine in yellow, I would be most interested to see.

 

Re the other vehicles in the breakdown train, Departmental Coaching Stock 1985 lists ADB975377 and ADB975419, both converted from fish vans as BTU tool vans, ADB975470 http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975470a converted from BTK/BSK M34527, ADB975488 http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975488 converted from BTK/BSK E35099. These were BTU staff and tool coach and tool and generator coach respectively. There were also ADE87380, another BTU tool van (converted from an unspecified LNER vehicle), ADE320610 (withdrawn by 1985) another BTU tool van ex GER BTK E62490E which was dumped in Tinsley Yard and finally ADM395481, also a BTU tool van converted from LMS PI BCK M6617M. This is all I can find that was allocated to or based at Tinsley at that time.

 

Kevin

[TerrySVR]

Which support vehicles for breakdown crane would you like to see?

[MartinTrucks]

Hi Mike

You mean this one that my Dad took in 1974 at OOC.

One thing i did notice on the model are the stabilizer legs don't touch  the ground , unless they are making the legs drop down to the ground, But looking at them when he pulled them out they seemed not to, would this make the crane unstable if the jib is out at the side?. 

 

The props/outriggers are horizontal. There is a screw jack at the outer end of each which sits in a steel "foot" (carried in one of the lockers on the jib runner) under which is sufficient wooden packing to support the prop on whatever ground is underneath it. The packing is specially selected and cut to size and would be carried on the jib runner or in a separate packing/tool van.

 

The crane can probably safely slew unpropped with no load and the jib fully raised. If the jib is lowered while over the side in an unpropped situation, the crane will probably tip over - the ultimate embarrassment for a crane supervisor! Re-righting it would have been a 2-crane job and the crane may end up being beyond economic repair.

[Gordon A]

Hi Mike

You mean this one that my Dad took in 1974 at OOC.

One thing i did notice on the model are the stabilizer legs don't touch  the ground , unless they are making the legs drop down to the ground, But looking at them when he pulled them out they seemed not to, would this make the crane unstable if the jib is out at the side?. 

 

On GWR No 2, the 36 ton R&R, screw down jacks were fitted on the end of the stabilizer beams.

 

Most of the difference between the end of the stabilizer beams and ground level would be built up with packing timbers.

 

Gordon A

[The Stationmaster]

The props/outriggers are horizontal. There is a screw jack at the outer end of each which sits in a steel "foot" (carried in one of the lockers on the jib runner) under which is sufficient wooden packing to support the prop on whatever ground is underneath it. The packing is specially selected and cut to size and would be carried on the jib runner or in a separate packing/tool van.

 

The crane can probably safely slew unpropped with no load and the jib fully raised. If the jib is lowered while over the side in an unpropped situation, the crane will probably tip over - the ultimate embarrassment for a crane supervisor! Re-righting it would have been a 2-crane job and the crane may end up being beyond economic repair.

 

Judging by all the breakdown packing I have ever seen I suspect the 'specially selected' bit meant 'selected from whatever could be found'.  Although I never saw it with a crane (crane supervisors were usually very careful about packing) the packing used by some gangs was as good at producing giant splinters that flew in all directions as a cannonball hitting the woodwork of a Nelsonian era ship; collapse or disintegration of packing was definitely a good reason for beating a hasty retreat

[craneman]

The props/outriggers are horizontal. There is a screw jack at the outer end of each which sits in a steel "foot" (carried in one of the lockers on the jib runner) under which is sufficient wooden packing to support the prop on whatever ground is underneath it. The packing is specially selected and cut to size and would be carried on the jib runner or in a separate packing/tool van.

 

The crane can probably safely slew unpropped with no load and the jib fully raised. If the jib is lowered while over the side in an unpropped situation, the crane will probably tip over - the ultimate embarrassment for a crane supervisor! Re-righting it would have been a 2-crane job and the crane may end up being beyond economic repair.

The R&R 45-tonners are tail heavy and will fall over backwards if slewed to 90° unpropped at minimum radius on level track with no load on the hook.

 

There are many recorded ocurrences of cranes toppling, often backwards, and my own has been over at least twice (I have photos, and the crane has scars, to prove it). It was only in the latter years that it became normal to scrap rather than repair them.

 

The 75-tonners were exceptionally tail-heavy and most, if not all, went over backwards at some time.

[sawyermodels]

Just thought you'd like to know the rrp for the ransomes crane. We've just got the 2018 price list and it says rrp is £249.95. Beautiful model though saw it in the flesh at Warley.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Just thought you'd like to know the rrp for the ransomes crane. We've just got the 2018 price list and it says rrp is £249.95. Beautiful model though saw it in the flesh at Warley.

If that is true, and this may just be the wine talking, but Bachmann is royally taking the pee with that price tag. :/ but I expect people will still pay it, will be interested to see how many they sell...

 

Edit : and I have been frequently defending the rising cost of models, but I think that is too much for an unpowered model crane.

Edited January 7, 2018 by GreenGiraffe22

[phil-b259]

If that is true, and this may just be the wine talking, but Bachmann is royally taking the pee with that price tag. :/ but I expect people will still pay it, will be interested to see how many they sell...

Edit : and I have been frequently defending the rising cost of models, but I think that is too much for an unpowered model crane.

Have you had a look at that video Andy Y posted?

 

If not then I suggest you do so because it shows quite clearly the large anmounts of intricate detail and precision assembly required.

 

Far too many modellers seem to think assembling all the separate parts is quick and easy - rather ignoring the fact that it is the woman (or man) hours needed to put all the bits together which was the driver for moving production to China in the first place!

 

It doesn't matter WHAT THE MODEL ACTUALLY IS - whether it is a coach, loco, wagon or a building, the price is a function of how complicated it is to make.

 

Injection moulding machines can quickly turn out the bits by themselves, it's the application of intractable / fine lining and putting the bits together that represents the biggest cost to a manufacturer.

 

The more detail modellers demand, the more hours neeed to fit it the more it costs to produce. I'd wager that the crane takes longer to assemble than quite a lot of Bachmanns diesel locos - which is reflected in the RRP.

[The Fatadder]

I think the real question on the cranes price is just how much was added in order to get the operating gimmick.

 

All of those seperate gears. Washout plugs, support jacks are extra toolings, not to mention a lot more assembally. For Minimal extra value in the long run.

 

Still, Warley 2019 ought to see a fair few on the Bachmann returns stand with damaged rigging etc for those who don’t want or pay full price (and prepared to do some modelling)

 

For me it’s debatable as to whether I will go for the Bachmann model or try and source a D&S kit for a 15t crane that was at Newton Abbot. Both will be expensive, both are nice to haves on the layout, though at least with the kit I’d be able to do some modelling

[GreenGiraffe22]

Have you had a look at that video Andy Y posted?

 

If not then I suggest you do so because it shows quite clearly the large anmounts of intricate detail and precision assembly required.

 

Far too many modellers seem to think assembling all the separate parts is quick and easy - rather ignoring the fact that it is the woman (or man) hours needed to put all the bits together which was the driver for moving production to China in the first place!

 

It doesn't matter WHAT THE MODEL ACTUALLY IS - whether it is a coach, loco, wagon or a building, the price is a function of how complicated it is to make.

 

Injection moulding machines can quickly turn out the bits by themselves, it's the application of intractable / fine lining and putting the bits together that represents the biggest cost to a manufacturer.

 

The more detail modellers demand, the more hours neeed to fit it the more it costs to produce. I'd wager that the crane takes longer to assemble than quite a lot of Bachmanns diesel locos - which is reflected in the RRP.

Well I assume it's costing them a fortune to make, and fair enough if that's what they have to charge to cover their costs, but I'm not quite sure it's worth a weeks wages, as I say, I'll be interested to see how many they sell.

 

I guess I feel a little bitter about trying to support the hobby but simply being priced out this time of an item I quite fancied.

[BlackRat]

In today's economic climate......good luck to them I say.

 

I think they might well just need it.

[Dunsignalling]

If that is true, and this may just be the wine talking, but Bachmann is royally taking the pee with that price tag. :/ but I expect people will still pay it, will be interested to see how many they sell...

 

Edit : and I have been frequently defending the rising cost of models, but I think that is too much for an unpowered model crane.

I don't think the price is outrageous for what appears to be involved in producing these. Certainly easier to understand than £155 per car for a 6-car DMU from existing tooling.

 

For me, it's too much for something I'd have to mess about with but, if and when they do a BR Southern Region version, I'll pay that much with no qualms. If they don't, I'll look out for a cheaper, damaged s/h one (likely to be fairly common, in a year or two, I'd guess) to work my magic on.

 

John

Edited January 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Godfrey Glyn]

Having seen the models at Warley and having had the opportunity to speak to one of the design team I am not surprised by the RRP. Bachmann clearly see this as a one-off prestige model. Most of us, if we buy one, will only buy one, I can't see that would change if even if the price was pitched at £150. I gathered that the packing itself will be a major problem in that it must arrive in the hands of the modeller with all the strands intact and in position - not an easy task in itself. Bachmann have said that it will be a one off production run and even if that policy changes I suggest it will be a long time before they would want to book another production run. They will want to cover the cost of this exceptional model with the first run so in all I am not surprised by the figure quoted. I just need now to decide upon which one I will buy and place my pre-order asap and save the money at pound level rather than at pennies level!

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

Edited January 7, 2018 by Godfrey Glyn

[Dunsignalling]

Having seen the models at Warley and having had the opportunity to speak to one of the design team I am not surprised by the RRP. Bachmann clearly see this as a one-off prestige model. Most of us, if we buy one, will only buy one, I can't see that would change if even if the price was pitched at £150. I gathered that the packing itself will be a major problem in that it must arrive in the hands of the modeller with all the strands intact and in position - not an easy task in itself. Bachmann have said that it will be a one off production run and even if that policy changes I suggest it will be a long time before they would want to book another production run. They will want to cover the cost of this exceptional model with the first run so in all I am not surprised by the figure quoted. I just need now to decide upon which one I will buy and place my pre-order asap and save the money at pound level rather than at pennies level!

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

Sounds like I'd be too scared to take it out of the box, let alone put it on a layout.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Dunsignalling