Beginners Timesaver - 1930's Scotland

[aardvark]

Hello all!

I'm an Australian, recently retired, and have started thinking about my first layout.  At this stage, I know almost nothing about this hobby.

As a lad, I had a Hornby-Triang trainset (Pullman carriages pulled by a big green diesel that I don't recall) that used to get set up on the family ping-pong table and hurtle around at break-neck speeds.  The set was slowly added to as pocket-money permitted, but ended up being sold-off at a fire-sale price when I left home to go to uni.

Now, all these years later, I think I would like a layout rather than a trainset, and am looking forward to learning just about everything I need to achieve that.

At present, I've "decided" on a Timesaver switching layout set in Scotland in the 1930's.  To keep a lid on all the skills I will need to learn, I've also "decided" to start with RTR stock and off-the-shelf track, with a view to tackle hand-made in the future.  "Decided" is in quotes as there is opportunity to change any- and everything as I currently own no track, locos or rolling stock, and I recognise a distinct likelihood that something I might choose will be stupid due to my ignorance of the subject.

Timesaver is nominated as a smaller achievable layout that will give me some pleasure when completed.  As an engineer, puzzle solving is something I've done my entire working life: I like things like crosswords and sudokus.  Not so complicated as to run the risk of never getting completed, yet not so simple that I run the risk of being bored with it as soon as it is completed.

Scotland is nominated as my wife's family came from Banff, and she has cousins in the Aberdeen & Banchory areas, so modelling Scotland might win a few brownie points.  Besides, I like Scotland, having recently visited all these areas (and more) on a start-of-retirement-trip that is still in progress.  Long term thoughts are that I might model Banff or Kittybrewster, but that will be another layout to be considered at another time.

Pre WWII was chosen as I like the romance of steam - simple as that.  Choosing 1930's Scotland will also give me a focus to - um - focus on, and some sort of prototype that I can attempt to re-create.  I know Timesavers aren't prototypical, but the knowledge, skills, locos and stock can be accumulated for the Banff/Kittybrewster layout, and for me, a layout that aspires to be something specific is much more interesting than just ordering arbitrary stuff off the internet.  Perhaps it would not be too outrageous to call my Timesaver "Kittybrewster"?

 

I'm also hoping that there are few Australians who might know what 1930's Scotland should look like, but at the moment, that would include myself.  So, my first question that I am hoping the collective RMWebbers can help me with is suitable reference publications for this time and place.  Our grand tour should see me in SE England during December, which might give me a chance of picking up anything that is recommended.

Thanks in advance for all the wisdom, support, advice and patience.  I'm really looking forward to the next year or so.

As a side-note, I chose the moniker aardvark thanks to a book I owned years ago called Do-it-yourself Brain Surgery and Other Home Skills.  One article was about home taxidermy, which described an aardvark as a badly stuffed dog with a sticky tougue, and it has just kind of stuck over the years.
 

[edcayton]

Have a look for Modelling Scotland's Railways vol1 and 2 by Ian Futers. Santona Publications. Ian is a master of simple layouts in Scottish/Border settings.

 

Ed

 

....and he has built several of them.

[Portchullin Tatty]

This is not a bad place to start with regard to reference books: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39742-useful-reference-books/

 

Mind you, you will need some extra baggage allowance to carry this all!

 

More seriously, you can not really walk into a bookshop and buy many (if any) of these although I would go to the Ian Allen bookshop just outside Waterloo Station as you will get some of them there.  You really need to find some of the specialist booksellers (they are on line but probably don't list their stock and much of the list will be second hand now).

 

I would also think about joining about the appropriate specialist line society - if you are doing Kittybrewster it ought to be the GNSR

[sulzer27jd]

If you are thinking about Kittybrewster I hope you have a warehouse big enough! There is also very (very) little trade support for the GNSR, so you won't be using anything RTR. I'm not trying to discourage you as the GNS is a wonderful railway with lots to offer, but you may wish to consider the 1950's where there is some RTR available and a smaller layout.

[Black Sheep]

Welcome aboard, I'm working on a post war 1950's timesaver depicting a brewery and canal wharf in N gauge (brew lane)

 

The intent being a rail served industry gives reason for the tangle of track and shunting moves, linked to the main railway by the line heading under a bridge (that doesn't avmctually go anywhere)

[TonyA]

If you are thinking about Kittybrewster I hope you have a warehouse big enough! There is also very (very) little trade support for the GNSR, so you won't be using anything RTR. I'm not trying to discourage you as the GNS is a wonderful railway with lots to offer, but you may wish to consider the 1950's where there is some RTR available and a smaller layout.

 

The OP mentioned a 1930s theme. Posts that I have seen in the past indicated that many RTR wagons for the Big Four were either stretched to fit a more modern chassis or re-liveried models from another company and/or date.

Is this still the case as more recent posts suggest an improvement with, for example, the latest Bachmann LNER wagons?

 

I would not be against doing a "quickie" 1930s scene if someone could tell me whether a few accurate RTR 4mm wagons are available.

 

However, I am no expert on wagons, especially of this era. I usually rely on Bill's guidance on this but he models 7mm.

 

Tony

[aardvark]

I love this forum.  Lots of helpful information for a beginner, and this from just one post!

 

Have a look for Modelling Scotland's Railways vol1 and 2 by Ian Futers. Santona Publications. Ian is a master of simple layouts in Scottish/Border settings.

 

Thanks edcayton: an order to a large internet book vendor is imminent!  These look like a fantastic place for me to start my education.

 

This is not a bad place to start with regard to reference books: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39742-useful-reference-books/ ... you can not really walk into a bookshop and buy many (if any) of these although I would go to the Ian Allen bookshop just outside Waterloo Station

 

I would also think about joining about the appropriate specialist line society - if you are doing Kittybrewster it ought to be the GNSR

 

Thanks Mr Tatty: I've had a look at the reference books.  I'm ordering the Ian Futer books, which look to be just what I need to start, but am also thinking seriously about the Railway Atlas of Scotland.  A visit to Ian Allen's bookshop is in the itinerary for December, and certainly will join the GNSRA.  There library of publications seems quite extensive, and for £15/year, it's a no-brainer,

 

There is also very (very) little trade support for the GNSR, so you won't be using anything RTR. I'm not trying to discourage you as the GNS is a wonderful railway with lots to offer, but you may wish to consider the 1950's where there is some RTR available.

 

 

Thanks sulzer27jd: you have exposed one of my ignorances.  Naturally, much of the stock in use in the 1930's comes from much earlier times, but I haven't really thought about that.  Newbie mistake.  I now understand that modeling in the 1950's would allow me to use things like the private owner wagons from the 1930's.  I think I read somewhere today (probably on this forum somewhere), 35% of the rolling stock was from the BIg 4 at nationalisation.  Or was that pre-Big 4?

 

Having said that, I think I would prefer to model LNER rather than BR, but have no logical basis for that at all.  In any case, this will be something for me to ponder over the weeks ahead while I consume the Ian Futer books.

 

Posts that I have seen in the past indicated that many RTR wagons for the Big Four were either stretched to fit a more modern chassis or re-liveried models from another company and/or date.

Is this still the case as more recent posts suggest an improvement with, for example, the latest Bachmann LNER wagons?

 

I didn't know about the stretching, but I guess it doesn't really surprise me.  As a beginner (and an engineer), I was surprised by the distinct lack of technical information about any RTR products, especially the length.  The kits I've looked at seem to be no better.  I think stretched wagons will just have to be a compromise that I am going to have to accept, at least to start with.  For a Timesaver, I only need 5 wagons, so it's not exactly a break-the-bank decision.  Using RTR wagons up front will at least allow me to actually see something moving around while gather some actual knowledge about the era I want to model and the characteristics of the rolling stock of the time, as well as developing some skills/confidence in kit-building.

[uax6]

I would be tempted (If I wasn't a HR man) to go Caley. There are some kits available (THe 0-6-0T form SE Finecast, complete with an etched chassis by them, or you can mount it on a Hornby 0-6-0 one), DJH do the 439 class 0-4-4T (or the did, I'm not sure if it is joining the cull of 4mm kits that is happening as I type), and you can bash the Hornby/GBL single into Jumbos/Cardean, the GBL/Hornby T9 makes Dunalisters.

 

I hear that the GEM Cardean kit is due for re-introduction soon. Coaches can be made from cutting the triang clerestories, and hacking the Triang grampians. Wagons from the old model wagon Co, or from the Caley Soc.

 

Might be a bit easier for you!

 

Andy G

[aardvark]

Thanks Andy G: I'll keep this advice in mind for later. To start with, I really want to do RTR even if that means accepting inaccurate models. For a newbie, there will be more than enough pitfalls in just doing that.

 

Getting better accuracy through kits etc will come, but a bit down the track, after I (and my wife) see something moving!

[uax6]

I think you could use some Hornby T9's to do some G&SWR 4-4-0's, but I'm afraid there isn't much Scotch RTR.

 

Lets make a list of locos:

 

Triang / Hornby Caley single

Hornby 'smokey joe' 0-4-0T (caley pug)

Triang/ Hornby J94 0-6-0T

 

I think thats all of them.

 

Coaches are what I listed before

 

Wagons are a more forgiving, most rtr wooden underframe types you could get away with.....

 

Andy G

[aardvark]

Sorry, now I see where you're going.

 

I don't have much of a plan yet, but I previously posted a question to the Scottish locos thread about using one of the soon-to-be-released Bachmann J72's for the Timesaver. I'm sure some of these where allocated to Kittybrewster and Keith in the 30's.

 

Unfortunately the Bachmann LNER J72 is in apple-green, which I understand was only used for passenger locos. My question to the loco thread was whether it would be too wrong to instead get an early-BR version, which at least is black, and rename/renumber to something more correct.

 

I'm sure this is probably wrong in a 100 different ways, so I appreciate your patience with me. I'm going to make a lot of mistakes ...

[aardvark]

Oh, and a goods Timesaver just seems to make more sense, so I am not immediately concerned about Scottish RTR coaches for the 30's.

[uax6]

Don't be afraid of buying a rtr loco and then repainting it. Its a skill that is worth getting the hang of.

 

Make sure you remove the lettering first and then you can go with the paint.

 

Lettering is available from the HMRS, I prefer Methsfix, but pressfix is also useable.

 

We all make mistakes, and I have made lots of them!

 

Andy G

[Happy Hippo]

Hello all!

 

I'm an Australian

 

You lucky thing, I'm Welsh!

 

As a side-note, I chose the moniker aardvark thanks to a book I owned years ago called Do-it-yourself Brain Surgery and Other Home Skills.  One article was about home taxidermy, which described an aardvark as a badly stuffed dog with a sticky tougue, and it has just kind of stuck over the years.

 

You should visit the Early Risers thread in Wheeltappers.  Not only do we keep a higher class of animal over there, but also some Australians we've managed to domesticate.

 

[LNER4479]

Hi there.

 

These two books were classics of their time - plenty of inspiration between their covers. Vol.2 covered ex-LNER lines so includes plenty of ex-GNSR pics.

You should be able to get copies shopping around the 'net.

[aardvark]

Anyone have any comments on "LNER Wagons vol.3: Scottish Area" by Peter Tatlow?

[Bogie]

As a fellow Australian you are absolutely right about few of us knowing what 1930's Scotland would look like.  (All my Scottish ancestors arrived in Australia before WW1.)  Like you I think that is an advantage to be exploited - after all the only people who can correct you are on this forum.

 

Good luck!

[aardvark]

Sorry - I've been on the road for a while.

 

Welcome aboard, I'm working on a post war 1950's timesaver depicting a brewery and canal wharf in N gauge (brew lane)

The intent being a rail served industry gives reason for the tangle of track and shunting moves, linked to the main railway by the line heading under a bridge (that doesn't avmctually go anywhere)

 

Good to meet you Mr Sheep.  I have read views about industry-based TimeSavers.  Clearly, it makes a step towards making the TimeSaver more prototypical, but for me, it detracts from the TimeSaveriness, in that the only thing you can put in front of your dairy are milk wagons.  In your case, I would guess that the wharf can take anything, and that the brewery would have need for all sorts of inputs as well as beer out.  I'd love to see what you're doing: do you have a thread or a blog?

[aardvark]

Don't be afraid of buying a rtr loco and then repainting it. Its a skill that is worth getting the hang of.

 

Make sure you remove the lettering first and then you can go with the paint.

 

Lettering is available from the HMRS, I prefer Methsfix, but pressfix is also useable.

 

We all make mistakes, and I have made lots of them!

 

Andy G

 

Thanks again Andy - really appreciate your input.

.

I'm not afraid of loco re-painting, just figure that this is one thing I can easily avoid.  Option seems to be 1) buy green LNER J72, remove decals, paint black, re-apply decals; or 2) buy early-BR J72, remove decals, apply LNER decals,  Of course, I'm presuming that the LNER and early-BR versions of the new Bachmann J72 are identical other than the colour and decals

[aardvark]

Hi there.

 

These two books were classics of their time - plenty of inspiration between their covers. Vol.2 covered ex-LNER lines so includes plenty of ex-GNSR pics.

You should be able to get copies shopping around the 'net.

 

Thanks Mr 4479: these look like a great resource.  The Ian Futer books recommended by edcayton have been delivered to my wife's cousin in Lincolnshire, where i will be able to collect them in a week or two, which will set me up for some Christmas reading,  I think I will also get both the Scottish Steam books, but have them shipped home to Australia to avoid the excess baggage charge

[Black Sheep]

Sorry - I've been on the road for a while.

 

 

Good to meet you Mr Sheep.  I have read views about industry-based TimeSavers.  Clearly, it makes a step towards making the TimeSaver more prototypical, but for me, it detracts from the TimeSaveriness, in that the only thing you can put in front of your dairy are milk wagons.  In your case, I would guess that the wharf can take anything, and that the brewery would have need for all sorts of inputs as well as beer out.  I'd love to see what you're doing: do you have a thread or a blog?

 

My threads are in my signature, all my layouts are somewhere in Milliedale (in thanks to my wife, Millie, letting me build them and isn't a real place, occasionally hopping sides of the Pennines but definately in the North!)

 

Brew Lane is here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66509-brew-lane-going-on-a-diet-an-n-gauge-shunting-puzzle-on-a-billy-bookcase/

It started out life larger but was rationalised

 

You're correct about the brewery as there'd be deliveries of hopps, yeast, barley etc along with wood and copper for the cooper (barrel maker)'s workshop or barrels if not made on site. Exiting there'd be spent grain (often used as cattle feed on local farms) and the waste scraped from the tanks (used to make Marmite) not forgetting coal to run the boiler

 

On my layout the brewery shares its location with another factory which will occasionally have brewery wagons plonked in their siding while shunting happens along with the canal

[aardvark]

My threads are in my signature, all my layouts are somewhere in Milliedale (in thanks to my wife, Millie, letting me build them and isn't a real place, occasionally hopping sides of the Pennines but definately in the North!)

 

Brew Lane is here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66509-brew-lane-going-on-a-diet-an-n-gauge-shunting-puzzle-on-a-billy-bookcase/

It started out life larger but was rationalised

 

You're correct about the brewery as there'd be deliveries of hopps, yeast, barley etc along with wood and copper for the cooper (barrel maker)'s workshop or barrels if not made on site. Exiting there'd be spent grain (often used as cattle feed on local farms) and the waste scraped from the tanks (used to make Marmite) not forgetting coal to run the boiler

 

On my layout the brewery shares its location with another factory which will occasionally have brewery wagons plonked in their siding while shunting happens along with the canal

 

D'oh!  Apologies for my apparent myopia: normally I read these forums on my phone as my wife uses the laptop.  On the phone, the forum appears in somewhat cut-down format including no footers, hence my apparent stupidity.  I have now read your thread and caught up with all the happenings: quite a merry-go-round it has been for you with the changes in circumstances.  Keep up the good work: I look forward to the future happenings at Brew Lane!

[aardvark]

Well, I've taken delivery of both Ian Futer books (thanks to edcayton for the suggestion), while both volumes of Scotland in Steam are headed direct to Australia to avoid an excess baggage charge (thanks to LNER4479).

 

Having read the Ian Futer books, I am now a little enlightened and thoroughly confused!  So many options.

 

I also now understand sulzer27jd's comment that there is "very (very) little trade support for the GNSR" in RTR.  I seem to have alternate days when a) I think about what I might be able to do; and B) despair that it all looks way to hard.  A good read of the Ian Futer books has given me lots to think about, including the possibility of changing to LMS Scotland, but I think I am going to stick with GNoSR in its LNER era.  There seems to be enough around to get me started, with enough difficulty to keep me amused for years to come while I attempt to improve the accuracy of my modelling.

 

So the immediate plan is still a GNoSR-LNER Timesaver as something small and moderately quickly achievable.  The loco will be a Bachmann J72, if Bachmann ever manage it (I see the release date has been pushed back one quarter already), as I know that the depots in Kittybrewster and Keith had these.  TonyA taught me that some RTR wagons are stretched to suit a standard chassis.  I recall reading somewhere recently (might have been the Ian Futer books, but I can't find it now), that I need 71mm wagons.  I see that most Bachmann wagons are 83mm, but that there are Hornby wagons of the right era (although not LNER) at 71mm, and Peco wagon kits that claim for 9/10 ft wheelbase.  Between those, I should be able to find five wagons for the Timesaver that will be good enough to initially fool Australians as 1930's GNoSR-LNER.

 

The Timesaver will (probably) be Peco code-75, DCC and automated (non-manual) turnouts, because I don't want to make things too easy for myself.  It will ballasted with a few weeds and maybe a lineside building or two thrown in.  There will probably be a backscene and some low-relief buildings for a background, but that will be the limit of the scenic-ing for this first project.

 

The first Ian Futer book also has a plan and some historical information for Banff, so this will be plan B/project #2.  I see that there are old but mint Hornby D41/1's available on Ebay that would suit.  Again, I am sure that the Hornby models are woefully inaccurate, but it is a place to start that can be incrementally improved as time goes on.  Further, Ian's book also has GNoSR-area plans for Blacksboat, Insch and Carron, so I think that that is me sorted for quite some time to come.will th

 

Finally, thanks to Portchullin Tatty, membership to the GNoSRA will happen.  Sadly, this will have to wait until I'm back in Australia, as they would want a cheque, and I don't even have a UK bank account.  Hmmmm - maybe I can buy a UK bank cheque from a random bank while I'm still on this side of the globe?

 

Edited to add this question: Drat!  The so-called Hornby D41/1 loco (R259 - 1983-5 or R860 - 1987-9) are both D49's according to Hornby.  Does anyone know the difference between the two classes, and whether either of these will run on Code-75 track without needing to change the wheels?

[sulzer27jd]

I think your GNSR area a later time period is a very good move. I would though suggest that the BR era remains the most achievable, but does allow a lot of ex-LNER influence. Wagon kits (and RTR) for this era are readily available and you have a bit more choice when it comes to power. The Ivatt 2-6-0 and the BR standard version are both available, as is the standard 2-6-4T. It is also possible if you model the very early BR years to still have LNER green locos in the form of B1's and if as hoped, Hornby release the other form of the B12, it would also be appropriate. An ex LMS 2P would be usable (still in full LMS livery). 

 

For coaching stock there are a couple of options. For RTR the ex LMS corridor coaches are available and a pair of these would be quite in keeping. Worsley Works do a range of GNSR coaches including the long-lived 48' Thirds to Diagram 52. 

 

Not sure what you were looking at on Ebay, or what a D41/1 is, but stay well clear. The only way to produce GNSR locomotives is by kit.

 

As for location, Blacksboat is still in existence, including the goods shed, so lots of photos are available. The GNSR had lots of interesting stations, including some quirky arrangements. The Association book shop is well worth plundering!

 

Good luck

[uax6]

I question wether you need to go DCC on this. For a small branch layout I cannot see any reason why you need to go to the expensive of the chips and controllers, when DC will give you all you need...

 

I think I agree with Sulzer above, that BR might be more easily acheived, but if you hunt around you will be able to find kits that you will be able to put together. Plastic kits will be the easiest route, but any kit is do-able when you take it slowly and carefully. Maybe get some wagons and start hacking them around to see what you can make, it'll be cheap, and then you will be able to see what you can achieve.

 

It might be worth looking at what you could GNoS-ify from the Hornby T9 4-4-0 loco. Its a very useful loco that lends itself to modifiying to Scottish Locos. (I have produced (sorry Am producing!) a couple of Highland Railway Big Bens, Ben Alder has used it to make HR small Bens (not quite right, but close enough!) and Londontram has produced Caley Dunalisters, and I'm sure they could be used to create others.) You will have to choose which one you buy as there is a wide cab and a narrow cab version, IIRC the narrow cab comes with a watercart (ie bogie tender) and the wide cab comes with the 6 wheeled one, but you will probably want a narrow cab and 6 wheeled tender! The 6 wheel tenders do turn up on ebay, and you can get the chassis from Peters Spares (and you could then cut the watercart top down to fit).

 

Banff station might be a place worth having a look at to do.....

 

Andy G