RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 19, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2017 OK ...... I think the basic problem you have with backscenes (and I have never got to the backscene stage myself, so what would I know) is that in most places your outside track is too close to them. My thinking is that for printed and even more so photographic backscenes to work well, you need some 3-D scenery between them and the railway. If that's not possible, stick to blue/grey sky and clouds. And I think that's even more so where the outside track is rising or at a higher level than the foreground tracks - where the retaining wall provides the backscene for the foreground. To (probably mis)quote CJF, "a grimy retaining wall is the best background for a train". Probably the only really suitable place for a printed backscene as things stand (stood?) is behind the high-level terminus. The bigger question - is it now time to plan for a radical change? Is what you now want, what you really really want, a railway which is, visually and operationally, more realistic than the high-play-value "train set" you initially wanted and produced so successfully, having so much fun, over the last two winters? Because a terminus to fiddle-yard U-shaped layout, possibly including a mostly-hidden continuous run with a simple un-sceniced plank across the doorway, will fit perfectly well into the space available. The terminus could be rural or inner-city ( I won't say "Minories" 'cos we really don't need another debate about reverse curves on the approach, but that sort of thing). I really don't think incremental development of the current track-plan, and fiddling around the edges of the scenery, is going to satisfy you long-term. But don't demolish until you have an outline plan for Mk 2! Hey ho ...... Chris Hi I really really don't want to start again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 19, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2017 To my mind the only backscene that really jarred was the one below the branch terminus, that made it look as if it was floating in the sky. Replace that with (another) retaining wall and it would look a lot less odd. That could turn the "port" in to a canal spur specifically built to allow freight interchange with the railway. I reckon you could lose the bit of canal that goes parallel to the high-level terminus altogether, and instead have the entrance to a canal tunnel disappearing off under the terminus, leaving just the bit next to the operating well as the freight wharf. Some of the rural backscenes may be a tad close to the rails to look realistic but it might be possible to disguise that eg with a length of dry stone wall such as this, this or this at the base of the backscene (maybe cut down to half thickness to fit in the available space - bonus: it covers twice the length that way!) I agree which is why its already gone! I'm drawn to ID backscenes to try to get more realism - any experience - self adhesive or not?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted October 19, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 19, 2017 Hi I really really don't want to start again! Retaining walls it is then ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 To my mind the only backscene that really jarred was the one below the branch terminus, that made it look as if it was floating in the sky. ............ I agree, in general. The 'rolling hills' backscenes are fine for 'general impression'. The seascape below the terminus simply looked silly . A canal wharf could still be fine - I'm thinking of canals seen from the train, when passing through places like Birmingham. OK ...... I think the basic problem you have with backscenes (and I have never got to the backscene stage myself, so what would I know) is that in most places your outside track is too close to them. This certainly applies to the stretch under the windows. If you're stuck with things as they are, then a wall behind the tracks with an 'industrial' scene above it and on a level with the one behind the raised terminus would possible convey the impression you're after. I feel that backscenes should be subtle, so as not to take interest away from the 'real' scenery of the railway. Where I use them, i put a few trees in front to help make a transition and although I use photographs, I print them in 'draft' mode to keep them 'low-key' and misty-looking. Incidentally, if you do take more photos, many mobile phones and cameras now have a panorama mode that would achieve the effect I got, without the need for software 'stitching'. I like photos because they often show up problems that are easily missed when looking at the actual scene. I only tend to spot the farm animals that have fallen over, when I look at the photos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just been looking at Dave John's Kelvinbank. It might give some ideas for your elevated section. Who needs a backscene with foreground interest like that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 21, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) "This certainly applies to the stretch under the windows. If you're stuck with things as they are, then a wall behind the tracks with an 'industrial' scene above it and on a level with the one behind the raised terminus would possible convey the impression you're after" I like this Mike ...................................!!! I am going to take this in stages - I am going to remove all the backdrops to refresh my thoughts and if nothing else to improve it from Peco to Photo - I would still appreciate feedback on what products to use as there doesn't seem to be much era 3 related stuff out there other than fields??? BUT ("thanks Chris") I am also thinking what are the main factors I would want to address if I do start again! all on one level less reach hopefully without rebuilding the baseboards ONLY a very simple lift out section/plank (if at all) more space between outside tracks and the wall minimise tracks running round corners here's the big one - DCC or not - does this make wiring easier as the grovelling underneath the boards was/is the real physical killer for me and may stop me doing this - how much more expensive will it be to get it right (500/100/1500??) must have operational interest as now Comments Edited October 21, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted October 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2017 I don't think DCC really reduces the wiring needed much, I'm afraid, because some sections of track still have to be isolated to prevent shorts and the lines beyond points usually need their own power feeds so that locos, sounds, lights and other devices remain powered when the points are switched away from them. (Unless you start using the new Unifrog points - but that's a whole other story.) But DCC has all sort of other benefits so it's still worth considering and you might be able to find other ways to ease the wiring. Don't give up on multi-level too quickly. I don't think it's the direct cause of your current issues. You have the space to do it, it can make better use of the space you have (by housing the non-scenic parts underneath a scenic part), it can be designed to be more scenically realistic and it adds more operational possibilities. When you say, "must have operational interest" - what sort of operations do you want? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 21, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2017 I don't think DCC really reduces the wiring needed much, I'm afraid, because some sections of track still have to be isolated to prevent shorts and the lines beyond points usually need their own power feeds so that locos, sounds, lights and other devices remain powered when the points are switched away from them. (Unless you start using the new Unifrog points - but that's a whole other story.) But DCC has all sort of other benefits so it's still worth considering and you might be able to find other ways to ease the wiring. Don't give up on multi-level too quickly. I don't think it's the direct cause of your current issues. You have the space to do it, it can make better use of the space you have (by housing the non-scenic parts underneath a scenic part), it can be designed to be more scenically realistic and it adds more operational possibilities. When you say, "must have operational interest" - what sort of operations do you want? Hi Phil As you are a new fresh interested party to this fairly long debate - what I really want is what I've got now but to have done it better - what ideas might you have - don't read the whole topic but a reference to the early dialogue might help you - I would really love to tweak rather than rebuild I have got lots of time and not a lot of money Give it your best shot - you wont offend I need to actually do something so removal of backscenes is this weekends project! BFN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 21, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hi Phil As you are a new fresh interested party to this fairly long debate - what I really want is what I've got now but to have done it better - what ideas might you have - don't read the whole topic but a reference to the early dialogue might help you - I would really love to tweak rather than rebuild I have got lots of time and not a lot of money Give it your best shot - you wont offend I need to actually do something so removal of backscenes is this weekends project! BFN All back scenes now gone!!! Note to self "don't glue back scenes on with PVA" they took hours to get off and very hard work................. Pleased with the results - to me its already showing potential to be less of a train set....................... I really do like the track work and its associated operational capability and those of you who took part know it was quite hard won so I'm feeling less like changing it! IDEAS please for back scenes and CONTEXT the only thing that is a given is the idea and location of the canal wharf not docks. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hi Phil ....... what I really want is what I've got now but to have done it better .... I think a great many of us think that of our own layouts, too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 21, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2017 probably so............i do think getting the backdrops better and as a part of that exercise resolving the level isues (partly in the way you suggest) will make it much more believable I am really struggling to find any urban scenes that are believable for my ERA 3 upper level branch station the reason is obvious but there must be something out there better than Peco? ID 15" large Back Scenes seem to me to be better (they do a run of terrace backs which may have to do) and they seem to offer a better fit for my layout than Gaugemaster BUT is the self adhesive version better and worth paying for?? KR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 22, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) Layout looks to stay the same ID back scenes ordered - Old Mill Town A and B and Sky all 15" premium (self adhesive) - Terraced Backs completes the set probably just to use the roof lines above a wall but I thought I'd get these and see how I get on as there is so little "urban back scene" choice that could even remotely apply to ERA 3 I must remove the Solar Panels on the end terrace though! BFN Edited October 22, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 22, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2017 OK next question................................... Back Scenes and corners - is there a right and wrong here??? Last time I curved the relevant corners to "match" the track - not sure that worked for me My layout is inevitably quite corner focussed being in a 9*7 shed but one corner is fully taken care of with the "mountain and tunnel" configuration carrying the beginning of the branch line rising to the bridge and upper level, the other is the buffers/track "end" of the upper branch station so again feels like a "given", the corner rising to the upper level seems to offer the opportunity for a valley hence the ID back scene choice of a Mill Town its the one into the station that I'm not sure of although in part access again suggests a track matching curve?? All contributions gratefully received..................................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I like to put scenic objects in the corners, hopefully, to draw attention away from the fact that it is a corner. I have a lime kiln in one and a water mill in another. The latter is surrounded by trees as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 22, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) I like to put scenic objects in the corners, hopefully, to draw attention away from the fact that it is a corner. I have a lime kiln in one and a water mill in another. The latter is surrounded by trees as well. any chance of a photo?? I'm going to take photos of the canal wharf etc area without distractions to look at this with a fresh viewpoint - I would appreciate any ideas but at the moment your thoughts of the canal scene with a wall or arches blending with the upper area and then providing the continuum with a wall to the back of the mainline loop with buildings above "following" the upper level seems favourite................. Edited October 22, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted October 24, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) Photos attached of the brave new world................................. The self adhesive 15" ID back scenes have arrived today - not cheap but very impressive! The manufacturers advised painting the surface hence the grey paint everywhere. BFN Edited October 24, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 If you were starting this layout from scratch I would have suggested trimming the upper baseboard edge to follow the tracks which would have allowed the turntable to go further towards the terminus and allowed maybe 6" more operating well length which would help reaching the terminus. Extending the turntable roads /engine shed towards the docks would be an option, Loco sheds are pretty much generic industrial buildings so loco shed one end and engineering works the other, one building two viewpoints. I mentioned my lift out section, I should have said hinged, it is hinged on car bonnet hinges and even with a hinged bridge which lands on the lifting part we can get someone in and out of the shed and tracks realigned well within 30 secs without stopping trains. the wires twist along their axis just below the hinge line rather than droop and have been very reliable for 30 odd years. The hinged section gets embarrassing when half the station lifts and we had forgotten there was an auto train in the bay. I suggested filling in the area around the station buildings with board to bring the roads etc to platform level which would reduce the visual difference between upper and lower levels. It looks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted November 1, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2017 After a long silence ...... I suddenly wondered whether putting the backscenes in front of the track that rises to the high level terminus, especially behind the low-level station, might make things look less train-setty - and help separate the two stations visually. You'd need some sort of view-blocker where a train leaving the high-level dives behind the back scene, not sure a tunnel could look right ...... Cheers Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted November 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) Thanks for this - the reason for a long silence has been lots of work going on ......................photos to follow shortly next day or so - I'm pleased with the results. BFN Edited November 1, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted November 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Been busy today so no photos just yet - but just a hint - and some praise where its due - ID Back Scenes especially in the 15" self adhesive premium version are FANTASTIC in use and when fixed look great - also VG service/pricing and customer support from ID and New Modellers Shop - anyone who goes the extra mile these days deserves a mention in my book! Have used before and will use again. PS some backscenes over ordered so look at ebay and/or PM me if you want a bargain! Edited November 2, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted November 3, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) Hi all, I'm so pleased with these - lots of detail to sort with walls fences etc etc but this exercise has really been worth it - a quick look back at the old photos proves the point I think - the world has moved on and I'm glad I moved with it! The canal wharf area will be finished off with either a fairly elaborate wall or possibly warehouse/office back scene "additions" which I have found on the good ole net! That's all for a while now thanks for looking - lots to do. Edited November 3, 2017 by halsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 They look to be the sort of backscene I like, too! Fairly subdued but life-like and adding 'atmosphere', rather than distracting from the layout. i can see why you are pleased with them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted November 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2017 The backscene behind the low-level station and gradient rising to the high level look better and more believable than I would have thought possible in the space. Great work. Looking forward to the wharf!! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted November 10, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2017 Here is the start of the wharf.................so pleased i started all this 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold halsey Posted December 24, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2017 Nothing since last post been unwell and very tied up in selling (took 4 days) and sourcing a new (to us) narrow boat which is not yet fully resolved but looking good. Have a great Christmas everyone................................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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