RMW "Layout & Track Design" - all change............

[halsey]

Hi all,
 
 
 
I am returning/new to this hobby after 45 years – and have NEVER engaged with BLOGS!
 
 
 
I have decided on size – a 9x7 garden shed, scale OO, era 3 (LMS) steam only,  goods only - lots of activity wanted love engines and private wagons.
 
 
 
I want to model in stages, preferably not going back over phased decisions so a modular/stage build is preferred starting with an industrial through station with good goods facilities and a separate marshalling/fiddle yard (the theme for which can be re-developed later) with 2 tracks around the room linking them up .
 
 
 
Baseboards exist ( I know not the right way to start but there were very good reasons) so I basically now have a 102”x80” fully insulated heated and lined internal area with an outwards opening door centrally located in the 80” end an “L” of 32” at the “opposite” end, a 16” shelf on the long return opposite the 32” longest length and an 8” bridge to close the shape across the door way – I do hope that all makes sense.
 
 
 
I would like to build on one level (boards are 40” high) and I think I want to have 2 tracks around the room feeding into stage one on the 102" x 32" section which would be as per (picture 2) a through station plus goods marshalling – treating the remaining tracks on the shorter 80"x32" section and the 80"x 8" (min) bridge section the as a feed into and out of a marshalling/fiddle yard (as per the appropriate (rh) bit of picture 1) which would be located on the opposite 16”x102"section for now which will one day be lifted and fully modelled.
 
 
 
I have been doing a lot of research which has produced the above scheme thoughts, I have about 20 “good idea” layout plans copied from various www contributions BUT I am now totally overwhelmed by the decisions needed to actually commit to something and get started and I have therefore stalled.
 
 
 
I am not a computer fan so don’t want to engage with CAD I don’t understand real life operating protocols so struggle with lots of blog terminology,  I repeat - I have NEVER blogged!
 
 
 
So I’m completely stuck and terrified of starting off spending too much and getting it wrong such that I lose heart.
 
 
 
Can you guys help!!
 
 
 
FYI all/most of this has come from this forum 
 
 
 
How am I doing??
 
 
 
PLEASE be kind with your comments especially if they relate to “I suggest you start again” but - short of spending £00’s on professional design services and waiting months for the outcome I need your help/advice and will very much appreciate it otherwise I fear I will never get started and eBay will get some more business!

Edited October 28, 2018 by halsey

[MikeOxon]

Having suggested you move here, I hope you get some more replies

 

You could make a start by buying some track to make the outermost loop of your proposed layout.  Get an engine or two of types you like and set up some basic electrical control.  Once you see something moving then I bet you'll get the bit within your teeth and take it from there!

 

Incidentally, you mentioned before having problems getting text from Word onto this site.  Personally, i always write my posts in the simple little Wordpad (in 'accessories' in Windows), select the text, then copy and paste into the box on the webpage.  Word adds all sorts of 'control characters' that can really mess things up, sometimes.  In general, my motto with computers is KISS (keep it simple stupid).  I know you don't like the idea of CAD but you could try looking at SCARM http://www.scarm.info/index.phpwhich lets you lay out pieces of track from Hornby (and many other makers) and put together a 'virtual layout' on the computer.  Don't bother with fancy stuff like buildings and signals and so on - just play with setting out some track pieces.

 

Mike

[DCB]

Er, I just can't see how you are going to get all this into 8'8" X  6'8" in 00,  Sorry.  Even in N it would be a squeeze.  Usual suggestion is the 60 plans for small layouts / Track Plans by C.J.Freezer or "plan of the month in 1970s back numbers of Railway Modeller.    I think you should be looking to run 5 coach trains as a minimum if you don't want fairly large LMS  locos to look a bit silly so I would suggest a much simpler scheme with bigger radius curves and especially larger radius points if you want that railway like feel.  A continuous run is good, It is always useful for running in and I like simply watching trains and locos run as ai fiddle about on my work bench.   My old layout had the track at 62"  so the duck under was no problem.  Lift outs can be a pain but I have a lifting bridge which works one handed and lifts up and down in seconds and indexes quite nicely.

 

I prefer drawing on paper to CAD as you can plan where each train move will be, but check out the Freezer Plans as a first step.

[PaulRhB]

On the lower plan I'd start by putting all the loco sidings one end and the freight the other. You'd have to keep one of those sidings empty all the time to access the left hand ones.

Even better put the loco depot elsewhere in the shed and concentrate that area as a small goods yard. Have a loop that acts as the arrival and departure road where the yard shunter picks up the train to split into the sorting sidings ready to go elsewhere. Using that inner line of the three at the right end as a headshunt to access the sorting sidings without blocking the two main lines would be more realistic. The loco depot could be accessed by a relatively steep climb with the shed on top over some hidden lines on the other side. The advantage is you only need the loco to climb the hill rather than dragging a train up it so you can get away with a steeper gradient.

The lower plan looks more realistic and you'll have to live with the sharp curves but they don't look so sharp when you get closer to eye level so think about having a chair or stool to operate from that gives you a lower view.

[halsey]

thanks that is exactly what I am doing (great minds) - 6 lh and 6 rh short streamline points arrived yesterday with 8 no 2 and no 3 radius setrack curves and today hopefully a class 5 and 10 wagons will show up and I will start playing - watch this space............... 

[halsey]

thanks - I have built a "lift out" bridge section which in woodwork terms certainly works well.

Coaches aren't an issue I really am looking to wagons only with a possible 3 set in the future.

I'm not in to modelling sweeping landscapes industry/docks appeal far more 

I am troubled with hip issues so I cant duck under anything and don't really want to try wiring at different levels.

[halsey]

Hi - Sorry but I'm getting lost with this as already I don't have any sense of the right or wrong way to engage with trains (I assume this will come with time) this is why I don't see the point of designing anything myself as I wouldn't know if it worked or not!

 

Any chance of a simple sketch based on "improving" picture 2?

 

I am now thinking that basing on picture 2 the top RH motorway bridge tracks and the bottom left (3 into 2) will form the other end and that the bottom rh 2 "marshalling" yard tracks will access the slightly distant larger marshalling/fiddle yard

 

 

 

The lower plan seemed to me to have been well "kicked" about on this site already so I assumed it worked was I wrong?

 

I'm not keen on split levels but what you suiggest sounds as though that might be OK as I do like the idea it portrays

 

I'll have a look at scarm and try freezer again but as mentioned above its a bit like saying I'll design a house on CAD when all I've ever done or seen is life on a dessert island

 

All comments are really appreciated - I will start playing with the round the room loops and basic electrics to keep my spirits up - it stills feels like a 1:20 gradient!

[Nearholmer]

Halsey

 

Personally, I'd advise you to forget all about learning a software package to "design" layouts for now - they have their uses, but all they do us draw stuff, you still have to do all the thinking, and drawing with pencil and paper works splendidly well.

 

Like an earlier correspondent, I would suggest that you go straight for CJF's "60 Plans". Definitely old fashioned, but good nevertheless.

 

Then, spend ages playing with your set-track on the kitchen table, to get a feel for things.

 

The other thought is a question: what real railways inspire you?

 

I ask, because each of a traditional steam age British railway, a modern British railway, a French railway etc, has its own conventions in terms of the way tracks are laid out.

 

Anyway, whatever else: The Fun Starts Here!

 

Kevin

[Zomboid]

I'm not sure where you are with this, but before spending loads more money, go to some shows, read loads of threads on here and work out what it is that you want from a layout. Do you enjoy watching trains circulate? Do you like shunting? Do you get more pleasure from finding the tiny details that people put in?

 

Also, how much time do you have to put into it? How much money? Are you a skilled scratchbuilder or are you like me and struggle to build a box from a kit? Make sure your eventual design is something that you have the capability of building, our you'll get overwhelmed and end up with a shed full of dissatisfaction.

 

Maybe you've already done that, but once you've worked out what you want from your layout, then it's time to decide which tracks go where.

 

To my eyes, your plan looks very ambitious got someone who hasn't been involved with the hobby for 45 years.

 

Other opinions are available. I'm only newly retuned myself...

[PaulRhB]

As I said the lower plan is close but here are a few suggestions.

1 separate the loco stabling and goods sidings as I said.

2 add a headshunt for the goods sidings. if you put a point onto the mainline off the bottom left it can act as the arrival and departure road for the sidings and loco stabling too.

3 I've changed the crossover at the left side to a trailing one as they avoided facing ones where possible and it doesn't affect running round in the station, plus allows a train that has to depart straight onto the other line in the correct direction

 

 

[APOLLO]

Don't worry with getting it wrong - we all have at one time or another to varying degrees.

 

My advice is this, it is what I did to plan my current loft layout. I started it in 2003 and have only altered a few small bits track-wise.

 

Plans, as you draw them I find do not always work, as already suggested. Curves become too sharp, point work takes up a lot more space than you think. SO just use your paper plan as a guide.

 

1. Build your baseboards so you have a known flat area to work on. Quite a decent layout can be built in a 9' x 7' shed. Take care to allow for easy entry / exit (near the door) and access to windows (opening, cleaning). Reach is important, though I don't think this will be a problem in a 9' x 7' space. I would say 18" absolute minimum for an isle (to walk in). Depends on what you are comfortable with.

 

2. Buy a few yards of Flex Track, a circle of second radius Hornby track (not first radius as this is too sharp for a lot of locos and stock) and if you are using Peco, 1 short, 1 medium, 1 large radius, and 1 curved points (either hand, doesn't matter at this stage).

 

3. Trace round each point on thin cardboard several times. Cut them out and you now have full size templates to work with. Just turn the template over for the opposite "hand".

A double slip / large crossing template can be made by putting left and a right large radius templates back to back. A three way point similarly with medium radius points back to back.

 

4. Plan your layout in real size. The circle of track will help here. If you want double track get a circle of larger radius also. You do not even need to buy full circles, just one curve of each radius and again, make card templates. When you are happy draw round your templates  / track with pencil, take photos for later reference when track laying starts

 

5. Be careful with gradients, try not to have them too steep, and not to have point work on them, especially at the start and finish of grades.

 

6. This last point is not for everybody - but works for me (and others). My first serious layout I laid the track and ballasted it quite nicely with granite chippings and PVA glue (as everyone does !!). Later, doing alterations I ruined quite a lot of track when doing so. So since 1988 I have used Peco foam ballast, sprayed white / grey. Look at the Grantham model railway thread on this site. This model railway has superb track using standard Peco track & foam. Easy to alter, nothing gets spoiled or wasted.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58826-grantham-the-streamliner-years/page-107

 

Good luck

 

Brit15

[halsey]

thanks - playing seems to be the collective advice - I am in to pre nationalisation steam goods only - setrack 2 and 3 rad curves for the round the room loop and streamline small radius points and flexi 100 for the rest

thanks for your interest.

[halsey]

shunting

VERY little money

not into shows don't do well in crowds and we are a bit off the beaten track also don't like driving

lots of time but winter months only

high ambition is ingrained but I DO take your point

thanks 

[halsey]

thanks I might try laying this out real time and see how it fits with my 2nd stage (posted @ 7.23) thoughts above

 

[Zomboid]

So if you're into goods only and shunting, why include a station?

 

Don't take that the wrong way, it's just if it's not your area of interest, use the space and resources for something you are into. Can still send passenger trains through if you like, they just won't have to stop (You could actually run longer trains if not constrained by platform length).

 

Anyway, my point remains make sure you build whatever it is that you want, not what convention dictates you should.

[halsey]

REALLY like this approach - it was where I think I was getting to but thanks for articulating it - I will move on with this and look at a combination of the round the room loop and laying out bottom plan layout

Shed cannot be any bigger and there is nowhere else but I was getting to think nothing worthwhile could be delivered in it so thanks for that encouragement

I don't want a train set so perhaps don't want to major on setrack - I do want a phased approach so I am happy to model the picture 2 environment and just play with the rest even if it doesn't look like anything (ever!)

 

THANKS

[PaulRhB]

Set track can help get even curves in a tight space and having a seat that brings the layout closer to eye level hides sharp curves pretty well while making it easy to stand up to work on the layout.

[halsey]

noted

 

I'm not committed its just that setrack means train set to me so I will have to revisit - you are not alone in your advice but I suppose I'm increasingly moving from wanting a layout to being happy with a better modelled area and a marshalling/fiddle yard but still on a loop for ease.

 

I'll go and "play" now and await the postman for my early Christmas present as mentioned above!

 

continued thanks 

[Grovenor]

 

I am in to pre nationalisation steam goods only

Pre-nationalisation there were no motorways, and not that much road traffic, so why a motorway bridge?

Regards

[halsey]

its just on the layout/track plan which was borrowed from elsewhere on this site - this will probably just be a scenic backdrop break but its a bit early for that yet - rest assured no motorway

[halsey]

sorry I missed the link (this is all very new to me) love the layout just what I dream of!

Thanks to all this has brought me out of my gloom of yesterday.

[PaulRhB]

That's the best thing about this, people look at it with fresh eyes. Also having a play laying things out full size on lining paper is a cheap way to see what it will really looks like. You can test out heights by putting a board on top of boxes on a table too. Your space is tight but there are some superb industrial urban layouts in a similar space. Have a look for Paul Lunn track plans or his book as he often uses set track to squeeze a realistic idea in a small space.

Edited November 18, 2015 by PaulRhB

[MikeOxon]

..................................

Thanks to all this has brought me out of my gloom of yesterday.

That's great news! 

 

If you click on "Reply quoting this post" then it puts up a box like the one above, which makes it easier to follow who you are replying to (can be useful when a thread gets complicated!)

 

Looking forward to seeing some photos of your progress.

 

Mike

[halsey]

I thought that's what I was doing? is this now right - keep the tips coming!

 

PROGRESS possibly - I found another plan on a 2014 thread which really seems to tick my boxes so to keep faith with the stuff before this is a new picture 2 if you will

[PaulRhB]

I thought that's what I was doing? is this now right - keep the tips coming!

 

PROGRESS possibly - I found another plan on a 2014 thread which really seems to tick my boxes so to keep faith with the stuff before this is a new picture 2 if you will

You probably need to click the BB code box as it keeps resetting on my pc too.

click on reply, then click the BB code symbol arrowed and then click back on the quote this post button and it should work ok.