RMW "Layout & Track Design" - all change............

[halsey]

like this??

[Nearholmer]

Something worth bearing in mind if you are a "goods and shunting" man is that there were broadly two sorts of yard in the steam age:

 

- yards, sidings, where things were loaded and unloaded from wagons. This is the sort of place for goods shed, coal yard, warehouses, timber depot, cattle-dock, etc, and sprawls out a bit, to allow space for loading/unloading; and,

 

- marshalling, sorting, classifying yards, where the railway company "shuffled the deck", to get wagons into trains for the right destinations. Some of these only had half a dozen sidings.

 

The latter type is +/- a fiddle yard, with sidings in close-file.

 

You might think about having the first kind of yard across one end of your shed, and the second kind down one side (basically four or five longish sidings, with a bit of a head shunt). This would provide a good storage place for all the excellent wagons that you will pick-up cheap on ebay, while still looking like something from the real railway.

 

K

[Steven B]

You need to work out what you want from a layout, but to know that I think you need to build something to see what you like.

 

Start off with an Inglenook or Timesaver style shunting layout; There are plenty of ideas for small but interesting small layouts on Carendt.com.

 

1000's of layouts have been built without the need for track planning software or relying on the internet/Google. Get some track and a few points, also, download and print the Peco turn out plans (http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=pointplans) to allow you to play around with a few ideas to see what you think will work for you.

 

If your interest is in steam based industrial shunting then take a look at the track plan for the Heart of Georgia Railroad. Ignore it being a plan for somewhere in America. Instead, look at the concept and think of it being based around some docks or a steel works; i.e. somewhere generating a diverse range of traffic with diverse wagons. e.g. take a loaded wagon from the exchange sidings, move it to a dock, "unload" it, then move it to another dock for "re-loading" before taking it back to the exchange sidings. Add a branch off to a fiddle yard on another level allowing the rest of the network to be represented and it should make for an interesting layout to build and operate.

 

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Nick Holliday]

If shunting is your particular thing, it might be worth investigating the two classic shunting layouts, Inglenook and Timesaver.  As these are designed with a view to making shunting challenging, they could make the whole process more interesting.  Having a large yard could mean that all you are doing is meaninglessly moving long rakes of wagons too and fro, whereas these puzzle layouts can give a better sense of purpose.

http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/Timesaver/timesaver-trackplan.html has details of both designs and outlines rules for operation.  I would be inclined to set up a timesaver using set track and playing with that to see if it is what you are after. 

I wouldn't get too ambitious until you know more about what you really want. I would also endorse others suggestions to try to see more layouts at exhibitions for inspiration, but always trying to bear in mind the space you have available, and not expecting to squash a quart into a pint pot.  One of the dangers of this is ending up with sidings and loops that are so short they serve no actual purpose, and often less is more.

(I see this crossed with Steven B's very similar advice)

Edited November 18, 2015 by Nick Holliday

[halsey]

many thanks I think this is beginning to be where I'm headed

[halsey]

I like this - thanks

[halsey]

thanks for that - all contributions gratefully received

[Nearholmer]

Herewith a "back of a fag packet" design for a modest marshalling/fiddle yard to go along one long side of the shed.

 

The use of a double-slip is both a great space-saver, and highly prototypical.

 

Naturally, you could add sidings to the extent that width permits.

 

K

[Chimer]

Set track can help get even curves in a tight space and having a seat that brings the layout closer to eye level hides sharp curves pretty well while making it easy to stand up to work on the layout.

 

 

noted

 

I'm not committed its just that setrack means train set to me so I will have to revisit - you are not alone in your advice but I suppose I'm increasingly moving from wanting a layout to being happy with a better modelled area and a marshalling/fiddle yard but still on a loop for ease.

 

I'll go and "play" now and await the postman for my early Christmas present as mentioned above!

 

continued thanks 

 

There is no significant visual difference between Setrack curves and flexitrack curved to Setrack radii - you are virtually committed to Setrack radii if you want a roundy roundy in that space, and it isn't easy to curve flexitrack smoothly at those radii.  So I would definitely use setrack curves for the majority of the curves getting round the corners, maybe easing out for the last few degrees and hiding the tight bits where possible.  But flexitrack everywhere else, and for sure Streamline rather than Setrack points.

 

For the rest, I agree, take it slowly and keep things temporary until you have a clearer idea of what you want.

 

All the best

 

Chris

[DCB]

I use set track and code 100 streamline interchangeably.  Under 2 ft radius I cut the webs on set track curves and ease them out to 24" radius as they seem to keep their shape and don't kink like streamline.  Equally set track straights are straight unlike streamilne which is difficult to lay straight, so mix and match,  Set track points are best avoided in my view as their minimum radius is only about 15"  Streamline small raduis points are more like 18" minimum 2ft nominal.

 

If you are into "Shunting" then a couple of things to bear in mind are that pushing long rakes of Tension Lock coupling wagons around sharp curves and reverse curves is difficult. In my experience anything less than 3rd radius and 2ft radius points causes problems and even then with more than around 12 wagons one coupling will ride over another leading to a derailment.

 

More important is why shunting was done, basically it was to get the right wagon onto the right train and to keep the train length and weight within line limits. Often a pick up goods, one stopping at most local goods yards along its route would have the wagons arranged in station order, whereas a through goods would most likely have vacuum braked wagons next to the engine.   In BR days this was obvious from the Bauxite coloured vacuum fitted wagons and the grey not vacuum fitted wagons.   Pre WW2 many private owner wagons, principally coal, ran between collieries and coal merchants,  These had to be returned to their owners leading to much unnecessary shunting when all the wagons were "Pooled"  early in the war.   After 1940 ish any PO wagon could appear almost  anywhere within its home area, getting grubbier and grubbier until finally it was repainted grey or scrapped.   Wagons were still despatched from colliery to merchant, different grades of coal to different customers so shunting and sorting continued though rather more anonymously with the loss of the distinctive liveries.  A pick up goods could be 80 wagons long and the Southern was fond of hanging 60 wagons behind a small 4-4-0 on the withered arm and the GW not averse to using a 28XX 2-8-0 on a pick up goods.

 

Often a wagon might travel in three or more trains from start to end of the journey.     Simply shunting a long goods into the right sidings at a terminus can be fun with the right couplings (Kadee?) but I like a nice long headshunt or using the mainline so I can move 15 or 20 wagons at a time.

 

Marshalling sidings are where trains are sorted into the right order. The tracks will be as close as double bmain line or closer. Nearholmer's drawing gives a good indication of typical marshalling or sorting sidings.   The GWR had some asymmetric goods flows and one way yards, Moreton Cutting near Didcot was originally for sorting London bound trains only with 2 groups of around 6 sidings each and two arrival roads.

 

Goods as in unloading sidings have space for vehicles to get alongside wagons or unloading platforms, set track spacing is not bad for this as the spacing was for horse drawn carts originally and they can turn much more sharply than lorries.

 

I have a uncompleted loft layout 13' X 9' approx where the fiddle yard is to be scenic as a set of marshalling sidings and adjacent MPD and the hidden storage loops only hold complete trains.

 

However back to my original post, I don't think you have anything like enough room for your original plan in 9 X 7.  see attached.

[halsey]

many thanks - when I get to the other side of the room I'll bear it in mind

[halsey]

I am "doing the 4 corners" with setrack 2 and 3 radius double curves for that reason - thanks

[halsey]

I'm still not sure if these replies are getting into the right place and are specific enough to the individual members input??

David  - continued and many thanks - you will perhaps see that during the day that the principal modelled area plan has changed (attached again here) due to fantastic levels of input and a rainy day (meaning loads more and much better focussed research) - I've got to start somewhere so this new plan is now the way to go with 2 tracks round the room and a marshalling/fiddle yard "behind me".

 

I'm going to start putting point assemblies together over the rest of this week to start to see how it all fits together.

 

Enthusiasm firmly restored!

[PaulRhB]

- I've got to start somewhere so this new plan is now the way to go with 2 tracks round the room and a marshalling/fiddle yard "behind me".

 

I'm going to start putting point assemblies together over the rest of this week to start to see how it all fits together.

 

Enthusiasm firmly restored!

Sounds like a good idea and remember you don't have to rush in and scenic it, try it out as bare baseboards for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. You can mock up buildings with boxes etc just to check it operates like you want and then dive in with the details

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and then, if it's like my layout, two years later, it will still be littered with old cardboard boxes pretending to be buildings, because you've got so caught-up in playing trains that you haven't actually built any buildings!

 

K

[halsey]

sorry no intention to mislead but its not my drawing but is plagiarised from a 2014 thread on this site - the clue is the points - its based on 6" squares!  

[Nearholmer]

Not meant as a serious proposal, but it might give some food for thought - it's acquired a wharf side atmosphere along the way.

 

If anything, you might be able to get more in, at the expense of cramping, because I've got used to sketching for coarse-scale 0 gauge.

 

Kevin

 

[no computer software was harmed in the making of this sketch; I simply raided the childrens' colouring-pen tin, and used a pencil and ruler]

[MikeOxon]

Not meant as a serious proposal, but it might give some food for thought - it's acquired a wharf side atmosphere along the way.

 

If anything, you might be able to get more in, at the expense of cramping, because I've got used to sketching for coarse-scale 0 gauge.

 

Kevin

 

[no computer software was harmed in the making of this sketch; I simply raided the childrens' colouring-pen tin, and used a pencil and ruler]

Seeing that cross-over near the 'wharf' triggered the idea of a separate narrow-gauge (OO9) system around the docks.  Just another thought to throw into the pot.

[halsey]

:scratchhead:aarrgghh!! Go away!

Away now for a few days no track time!

[Nearholmer]

Mike

 

I was beginning to have thoughts of Newhaven (Sussex) West Tramway as a sketched it, and that came into contact with both a narrow gauge line to the foreshore, to collect shingle, and a horse-drawn (standard gauge) line into a big chalk pit. Overall, it was a bit like the more famous tramway at Weymouth, but goods only.

 

And, it past that rarest of wonders, an Art Deco pub! http://www.francisfrith.com/newhaven/newhaven-the-hope-inn-c1960_n20046

 

Edit: found this really good postcard picture on line. Taken c1958, but not much different in the early 60s, from when I have dim memories of going there in Uncle Wilf's Bedford van, very like the yellow one in the picture. This scene really justifies a layout themed around it!

 

Kevin

Edited November 19, 2015 by Nearholmer

[jon_1066]

Working from the plan you liked you can fit it in like this (assuming I have your dimensions correct)

 

 

Ideally reduce your running line to a single line around the shed.  This eases considerably the amount of space it occupies and simplifies all your point work for access to the marshaling yard and the goods sidings.

 

An over bridge or hill/tunnel between the goods sidings and the marshaling yard will act as a scenic break between the two parts of your layout.  You can marshal trains in the fiddle yard then send them round either direction to then shunt the goods sidings.  Passenger stock could pass goods trains in the access loop.

[halsey]

Wow thanks for your input/effort - there isn't a scale so I cant comment on size but it looks about right.

 

I'm only using setrack on the 4 corners the rest is predominantly small radius or "y" streamline and 100 flex track quite a bit already bought.

 

I'm not committed to double track around the room but have decided to see if I can allow for a future raised section which would see an terminal station above the fiddle yard as it were in the bottom left of your drawing accessed from the mid point of the loop on the opposite side and running anticlockwise on the outside of all tracks for simplicity or plan and gradient.

 

Your timing is also great because I'm wrestling with fiddle/marshalling yards and headshunts (and the fact that I've already bought 6 LH points and this seems to be almost entirely RH) - taking your plan can the yard and headshunt be reversed?

 

I'm assuming the 2 inner tracks in the bottom LH corner aren't joined - but what are they for as they look short?

 

I hope this isn't asking too much!

[LNER4479]

Don't worry with getting it wrong - we all have at one time or another to varying degrees.

 

Look at the Grantham model railway thread on this site. This model railway has superb track using standard Peco track & foam. Easy to alter, nothing gets spoiled or wasted.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58826-grantham-the-streamliner-years/page-107

 

Good luck

 

Brit15

 

sorry I missed the link (this is all very new to me) love the layout just what I dream of!

Thanks to all this has brought me out of my gloom of yesterday.

Hi there,

 

Your thread title caught my eye - then was flattered to discover that I'd got a mention!

 

So thanks first of all to 70015 for that. More than that I have little to add. I think you've received some good advice here so far and have begun to get a more clearer focus for where you want to go. You can't beat playing about with actual bits of trackwork to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. You may find yourself having to have several 'goes' before you get something you like and which works so don't be afraid to do that - Peco track is fairly robust and - as has been pointed out - easy to alter and re-use.

 

For what it's worth - I do all my layout planning with a pencil and a piece of graph paper!

 

If you're planning on visiting Warley next weekend at all, I shall be manning one of the demo tables armed with a box of Peco points!

[halsey]

Can I just say to all who have contributed - "Layout design by RM web" produces results - thanks to all now to start enjoying myself - watch this space!

[halsey]

If anyone is still watching this I am making progress in laying out track to see what fits where (so far so good) constructing the upper level branch station above the fiddle yard which is accessed using a 3% gradient - the whole thing runs anticlockwise coming off the outside of the main loop and accessed via a RH point inserted to the left of the main point work.

 

I wish I could get on with CAD but I cant so its enjoyable trial and error still based very closely on the second of my posted main track layouts with a fiddle yard based on Nearholmers sketch with branch above BUT what is challenging me at the moment is "facing direction" of the main loop crossover which I need to put centrally on the double tracks to the short left hand side of the room.

 

Where I'm struggling is I cant "get" the logic of whether I need to use 2 LH or 2 RH points - as the main point work in the middle of the detailed plan uses a 2 RH format I have assumed that the opposite is what is needed so I have put 2 LH in place at the moment and it looks right but if you are able to follow my explanation am I right?

 

I will try and sketch something soon to help you help me!

 

Thanks for watching