Locomotion announce prototype HST

[Roy Langridge]

I think the big picture is being missed. The prototype HST was bound to be popular, if financial uncertainty has resulted in that being paused, I wonder what the future holds for other less popular choices? Similar uncertainty must also exist for those as the currency risks are, to a large extent, out of manufacturers' hands.

 

We have also seen a change of plans for the Hattons' King and I fear these two may be the tip of the iceberg.

 

Roy

Edited February 8, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[chris p bacon]

I think the big picture is being missed. The prototype HST was bound to be popular

I wouldn't actually agree with that, I'm not sure that the take up for the APT-E was quite what was hoped although I understand they all sold.

 

My interest is in No1 (Stirling Single), the Sturrock tender has been cancelled for that, which on the face of it looks bad news. But when I spoke to Rapido they say it's because the take up for the original tender far outstripped their expectations and made the Sturrock tender unviable.

[woodenhead]

The reasons for the postponement of the HST is different to the cancellation of the Hattons King I would imagine.

 

The HST case involves several currencies as it is being made by a Canadian company in China for the UK market, it is missing the Mk3 coaches to go with it making it only a part model - great for collectors perhaps but if someone wants to run it on their layout as it was in the early 70s then they have to get the paint pots out.

 

The King had a duplicate model on sale and being discounted - there was not business case for a high cost high spec model when a slightly lower spec model wasn't selling and had to be discounted.

[Steamport Southport]

You've got to remember who the people putting the money up for this is.

 

 

You can't expect the NRM to start playing Russian Roulette with their (our) money. Better to leave it until the markets are more agreeable.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Karhedron]

You can't expect the NRM to start playing Russian Roulette with their (our) money. Better to leave it until the markets are more agreeable.

Possibly true. Sadly I don't see value of sterling rising significantly any time soon.

[chris p bacon]

Possibly true. Sadly I don't see value of sterling rising significantly any time soon.

There is the drop of the dollar to take into account.  Sterling could be stable for some time but the US $ might bounce around all over the place.

Edited February 8, 2017 by chris p bacon

[The Stationmaster]

Possibly true. Sadly I don't see value of sterling rising significantly any time soon.

 

Although one of the ratings agencies is claiming that it will rise (or perhaps they mean the $ will fall?).   But maybe not for some time - we'll only know it's happening when it happens.

[delticfan]

Back to kit bashing, ah well it had to come, nothing like a bit of progress back to the dark ages I suppose.

[Sun Street]

Posted 08 February 2017 - 22:03

Back to kit bashing, ah well it had to come, nothing like a bit of progress back to the dark ages I suppose. 

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• I agree with Delticfan.

I have to agree with Delticfan

I have been building the prototype set between other projects for the last couple of years.

 

Shane has been helpful with advice over the years and had multiple train sets on display at Warley.

Many thanks

 

Railway modelling - or - collecting

Collect by all means if you've got the money, but by choice, I model.

 

The HSDT is a minefield as we all know.

The coaches were not designed  for the HSDT, but as loco-hauled stock, hence them having buffing gear. 

the power cars were not thought of when the coach design was signed off, so l was informed, the power cars being a development or second string in case K9 failed, which it ultimately did.Let's face it all that the ATP-E needed was 2 radar scanners on top.

Back to the HSDT, when speaking to Rapido at Warley, I pointed out [and probably not the only one] that whilst the power cars started out as a pair, they became mis-matched when they went through Derby and were re-numbered prior to joining the western region.

The changes have been listed elsewhere, but Rapido will not compromise on their quality [rightly so], so their tooling costs would go up considerably, necessitating slide sections for the differences, or 2 sets of tooling and all the associated checks and tests prior to production.

They will not win as too many whingeing  ... will nail them for any compromise, or the cost [just read all this post, then disagree with what I have said, if you can.

People want absolute fidelity [i do] at ''Railroad'' prices, it's just not possible wherever items are designed and made in the world.

 

So, post-74, 2 different power cars.

As for the coaches, 10 were indeed built, 4 first, 4 second and 2 catering cars.

The bodies are unique to the batch, visibly so in 4mm.

Painting Lima or Hornby is just not on as the roof vents are of a later pattern, used on both loco-hauled and trailer cars, the doors are different as well, even more minor details need to be changed/ modified to be authentic.

The closest to date are the Jouef coaches, correct roof at least and probably the most prominent error in using Hornby models. Oh deary me, the bogies have electrical conduit on both sides instead of one only.

Window frames, when sanded off to create a flush side panel, leave a fine lip that effectively places the glazing recessed to the correct amount.

The paint livery moulding line can be useful on the doors when shaved elsewhere as it forms a neat recess for the door handles, needing just a little model filler to be okay.

 

 ln all my research, I am yet to find any photos of a 10+2 consist, not saying that it did not happen, but it was not a design intention to run regularly in that formation.

Test photos show the power cars running from 1+2 to 8+2 in service on the western, indeed there is evidence of the power cars running with no coaches at all.

 

I have built my power car noses from Hornby nosecones, fitted with Genesis valances [cut from full pewter castings], the nose change is the easy part, just get the rest of the details done as well.

All that needs to be done is to study available photographs, do not follow any of the line drawings, I have not found one that I could not criticise, some of them having major errors [how can you get the number of roof vents wrong? They match the prototype Mark 3s exactly, as do the power car rear edges, being shaved in a similar manner.

 

So to sum up.

If you want to run an HSDT in the near future, buy and modify 2 EARLY Hornby power cars [ you need the rear driver's cab moulding] and 8 Jouef mark 3 coaches.

Then just sit and shave to your heart's content.

Once you've found some decent shots of the catering cars, that's more kit-bashing. And boy, are those images rare!

 

It is possible to achieve a 99-point model with pretty easy work and it is likely to be more accurate than any potential production models, as I fear that any manufacturer will only produce power cars accurate to pre-74.

Having looked at the Oxford tooling options [the funny blue print with weird window lines], they have designed every option in that I  can see, so let's be optimistic and not whinge or knock.

If I was a manufacturer that received some of the comments and generalisations that fly around in our hobby, I go and mould Tupperware.

Let's be grateful for what we get.

[delticfan]

Hey can someone 3D print the cab moulding, at least it would be better than the previous white metal one and we could think we are making some advance and not going backwards.

[Opelsi]

Well it is not far off time for Warley again.

 

How happy I was two years ago when I saw the Prototype HST announcement. I was lost in thought as to which version I might want, later realising I would go for a couple of different versions.

 

Dreamt about having HST & APT side by side like the famous old photograph years ago at Swindon. 

 

I know it is supposed to be on the back burner rather than cancelled but I just feel the chances of getting a rtr version have diminished akin to a oozlum bird.

 

Unfortunately my modelling skills are not up to the mark for a conversion project, let alone the level of skill required to paint one to an anything like an acceptable standard. Coupled with a lack of time too of course. 

 

I live in hope that one day this model might see the light of day in rtr form.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Opelsi

[Neal Ball]

There have been photos on Facebook this week of someones model(s) of the prototype HST:

 

 

 

[Sun Street]

If I recall correctly, this chap was offering resin casts for sale a while back.

A member of our club paid good money for a pair and they were duly delivered and brought to club.

I have to say that the quality was atrocious, I hope that  a great number of mods have been made since that time, but the proportions tell me that these bodyshells seem to have come out of the same moulds.

Caveat emptor applies.

The facebook correspondence has probably been edited by now.

Please be careful before parting with your money.

 

The only models that I have seen that are satisfactory are Shane's [Wolf 27 on here] and they are superb.

 

Mine are still making progress. As I am modelling in 1974/5, the 2 power cars have multiple differences after going through Derby between service on the East Coast and the Western region.

I certainly will not accept a re-nosed squadron-build bodyshell as many are. The louvres are a case-in-point. Subtle, but obvious once recognised, just closely study the images that are about.

Pete

[hamish_barb]

Any updates on the HST prototype from locomotion? 

[Hilux5972]

Any updates on the HST prototype from locomotion?

From the Rapido thread, dated 28 Jan 2017

 

Here's the newsletter text in full...

 

 

Prototype HST gets a caution signal

 

 

I have news about the Prototype HST Power Car project being produced in partnership with Locomotionmodels.com. When I was in Shildon this month, we sat down together and had a detailed look at the finances of the HSDT project. Due to the drop of the value of the pound and its continuing instability, we feel that the Prototype HST model is not financially viable at present.

The project has not been cancelled, but like several mainline electrification projects in the UK it has been 'paused' for the time being. I know this will be enormously disappointing for my fellow modern-image modellers, but the realities of the economic situation can't be avoided.

Stay tuned to future newsletters for more information about this project.

I’m sure when they restart this project, we will be the first to know about it.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Hilux5972

[IamDaniel]

From the Rapido thread, dated 28 Jan 2017

 

 

I’m sure when they restart this project, we will be the first to know about it.

 

I spoke to Rapido at Warley. The chap there said there has been a lot of interest this year, but it has been put on hold for the time being. He told me the plan was to make Mk3 coaches as well, but when Oxford produced theirs there was no way Rapido could compete on a cost level. More of a 'watch this space' thing than a 'no, sod off, we're not building' vibe from him, though.

[Ely_South]

I spoke to Rapido at Warley. The chap there said there has been a lot of interest this year, but it has been put on hold for the time being. He told me the plan was to make Mk3 coaches as well, but when Oxford produced theirs there was no way Rapido could compete on a cost level. More of a 'watch this space' thing than a 'no, sod off, we're not building' vibe from him, though.

Yes, agreed - I had a similar conversation.

 

Subtle difference though - I was led to understand that the project is no longer under consideration by Locomotion. If we want HSDT to go ahead, we'd need to badger Jason (Rapido) directly.

 

Like you say; I'm sure the Oxford Mk3 announcement killed this project off shortly after it was suggested - at least for now. As a result, I suspect that we'd need to wait until the Oxford Mk3s have been marketed/reviewed before we'll get Jason's attention.

 

Cheers

Rob

[hamish_barb]

Sorry for another ask, but does anyone have a link to the correct MK3s that Oxford is producing for the HST prototype?

[No Decorum]

I think I’m right in saying that Oxford isn’t producing the prototype Mk. IIIs. It is hardly likely unless power cars are produced by someone.

[Guest spet0114]

Sorry for another ask, but does anyone have a link to the correct MK3s that Oxford is producing for the HST prototype?

 

As per previous post, Oxford aren't producing any Mk3s suitable for the HST-P. However, the fact that they're producing a modern/high spec model of the production Mk3 would mean that if Rapido were to get into Mk3 production, there would be limited scope for sales. This is based on the assumption that they (Rapido) would spread the cost of tooling up for a very specialist model (the HST-P variant of the Mk3) by producing adaptable tooling that could accommodate the production version too.

 

As usual, the above is how I understand the situation. The reality may differ.

[Jamiel]

Due to the drop of the value of the pound and its continuing instability, we feel that the Prototype HST model is not financially viable at present. 

If only someone had written that on the side of a bus 18 months ago, then the referendum may have taken a completely different direction.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Jamiel

[Sun Street]

Since there is now a managerial alliance between Hornby and Oxford, there could be an interesting opportunity to suit many modellers.

How about Oxford continue with their mark3s of all types, and Hornby retire their moulds, modifying them to produce the prototypes?

Who owns the Jouef mark3 tooling? Their roof is near perfect for this project and minor tool reworking would make it fit the ex-Lima shell.

The Jouef tooling also could be refreshed, getting rid of the paint guidelines and adjust the doors.

Just some odd (very) thoughts

Pete

[UP 4000]

Since there is now a managerial alliance between Hornby and Oxford, there could be an interesting opportunity to suit many modellers.

How about Oxford continue with their mark3s of all types, and Hornby retire their moulds, modifying them to produce the prototypes?

Who owns the Jouef mark3 tooling? Their roof is near perfect for this project and minor tool reworking would make it fit the ex-Lima shell.

The Jouef tooling also could be refreshed, getting rid of the paint guidelines and adjust the doors.

Just some odd (very) thoughts

Pete

 

Not really, Rapido Trains are signed up to doing the HSDT, to what extent is not known, Power car, Power cars, coach, coaches, full rake, who knows?

End of the day we all want Rapido Trains to do this, but NRM/Locomotion are the commissioners for the model so it's down to them when and if and who does the HSDT to what the chosen specification is.

 

At the moment as far as I am aware is APT-e and Stirling No1 has been, APT-e successful, and Stirling still awaiting, but both been very demanding projects, and even though Rapido Trains are doing more UK based models seems as though there is no more announcements on NRM/Rapido projects, Hopefully once Stirling is sorted, and a short break, fingers crossed they may be some good news, unless they parting ways, I hope not!!!

[jjb1970]

I am not holding out much hope that the NRM will ever reactivate this project, unless Rapido decide to do it for their own account or another commissioner steps into the void then I can't see it happening any time soon. Not sure if any other manufacturers might be interested in having a go.

[John ks]

I would like to see Rapido NRM go ahead with this project

 

If the APT-P from Crewe, DJ, Durham goes ahead then we might see a renewed interest in the HST. please, please, please, please ---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Has there been a show of hands to see how many are interested in the HST?

 

Is there anybody out there with a lot of spare cash who would like to sponsor / back the project & possibly take a loss(tax write off) for the greater good .  

 

John