RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2015 Predicted text! Grrrrrrrr! Strange to relate, they were not cut up on site as they had been "stored" at New Cross Gate, probably to let the press forget about them. If only they had been successful, if only. Leader04.jpg Hideous. Better a nice Caley 812 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The people who may well have a better handle on things are the marketeers in Hornby and Bachmann who have access to their own sales figures, probably an estimate of their competitions, and access to the polls. The correlation between their decisions and poll data is pretty clear. It's not, and shouldn't be, a 100% correlation. I'd like to think that their alternative sources, including their own instincts play a role in the decision process. My interest (which will certainly never be answered) is what other market data is overlain on this - historic sales data for sure, comments back from the sales force when they visit shops or shows, customer complains and suggestions, Facecrook etc.. I doubt there is a formula that says for example 75% poll, 15% sales representative feedback 10% the rest, but it is clear that manufacturers do rate the results of the poll high in their strategic design. Andy I doubt that there is a formula at all and is probably highly situational. I suspect that 'gut instinct' still plays a big role. When polling data and 'gut instinct' align it makes decisions easy. Hornby's decision to make the Peckett is an interesting example. Brian has noted that with the change of the poll to include industrial categories (like outside cylinder 0-4-0ST) the poll rates such categories highly, but the Peckett E class specifically never polled highly. Hornby have chosen to make a W4 (to general acclaim) yet I don't think a W4 would have polled any better than the E class did. While the polls might have encouraged Hornby to think more about 0-4-0ST models they clearly weren't the only factor, or necessarily the most important factor this (good) specific choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted December 8, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2015 Dear All As promised, I took up the suggestion of whether The Poll (or a separate part of it) should seek to find readers' views in respect of what time-spans and regions they model or collect. I'm sorry to say that we would be getting into deep water and feel that it is something we can't take on. My draft which went to Mike Stationmaster showed that there are at least three relatively distinct time-spans alone and those might generically be called: the steam era up to 1968; the blue/grey and 'sectorisation' era from 1968 to 1994; and the privatisation era 1994 to current. Each needs a different approach. Added to that, there are complications within each of those time-spans. Whilst we can say Grouping was from 1923 and BR started on 1 January 1948 etc, much of the rest is 'evolution' and can't easily be categorised. We can look at BR regions - but even they 'shifted' from time to time. There are a number of other ways, all of which have some complication. It is one of those ideas that sounds very easy but the reality is very different. To give you just some idea of the problem, take a look at the Era 9 thread. At least we have re-visited the question and given it a fair hearing. May we take this opportunity to thank you all for your continued support and highly valued comments. They are much appreciated! Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Is there any rationale/logic/explanation behind some of what would appear to be anomalies with the N gauge list? For example the 4 and 2 car BR design class 415/416 EPB EMUs are separate categories yet the 4 and 2 car class 465/466 Networker EMUs are combined as one category. Had the EPBs been combined like the Networkers they would have topped the poll and if the SR build have been included they would have been out of sight (although to some extent I understand keeping the BR and SR builds separate as there are visual differences like a narrower end panel giving a more pointed front and lozenge shaped windows above the drop lights in the doors - but then the Networkers are different with the 4 car sets being pressure ventilated and the 2 cars units being air-con with windows and equipment to support). Plus of course the Tyneside EPB units are also separate but are lumped in with a MLV which is a completely different beast. There doesn't seem to be much consistency. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted December 8, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2015 Hello Grahame I have to seek input from appropriate members of The Team to fully answer your questions. This make take a few days as not all members are on-line at any one time. Bear with us and we'll get back soon. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted December 10, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2015 Hello again Grahame (# 104) Thanks for the queries which we see have been posted to MREmag also. We have replied there hopefully for publication in tomorrow's edition (Fri 11 Dec). Firstly, you asked if there was any rationale/logic/explanation behind some of what you felt were anomalies with the N gauge list, specifically noting certain EMUs. Although only N was mentioned, we as The Poll Team have to take both N and 00 into account concurrently. What is 'popular' in N isn't always so in 00 and vice versa. Some items have been released in both gauges but by different makers or in one gauge and not the other, which means we have to list subjects appropriately to the situation. Although we try hard to be consistent it is sometimes a matter of 'horses for courses'. We start from the basis that the real railways themselves - past and present - were, and are, not consistent. For example, numerous items were built in BR days as 'freight stock' but were moved to NPCCS. Some BR Fish Vans and BR Meat Vans went the other way. As we note in The Guide (extract PDF attached) not even BR standardised the way it listed Southern Region EMUs. We also have to keep the length of lists to a reasonable minimum as part of the original 2012 request that we 'rationalise'. Some items are combined where it seems reasonable to do so or particularly where items have been consistently low voting and may otherwise have been deleted. The Class 416/2 Tyneside 2 EPB and MLV is a case in point. We believe we are correct in listing the various EPBs etc in the way we have because of different lengths, body styles, areas of operation and time-frames within those areas. Once again, the Tyneside EPB and MLV is a case in point. Further detail of length and configurations of the BR EPBs can be found in the BR Appendix for Electric Trains. In respect of the Class 465 and 466 fleets, these are tricky and, to make things worse, the Class 365 was a hybrid of the two. The 97 Class 465 have one body style whilst the other 50 and all 43 Class 466s have a slightly different one. Some Class 465s were reconfigured with First Class and altered Standard seating for longer-distance outer-suburban work. We can find no evidence of either class being equipped with air-con. In past Polls, the Class 465/466 featured as: 2012 (the highest EMU polled 27 votes) 11 votes Class 465 (Class 466 not listed) 2013 (the highest EMU polled 38 votes) 20 votes Class 465 19 votes Class 466 (listed 'new' that year) 2014 (the highest EMU polled 64 votes) 30 votes Class 465 27 votes Class 466 2015 (the highest EMU polled 65 votes) 32 votes Class 465/466 combined We have attached an extract PDF of The 2015 Guide text relating to the Classes above. If you - or anyone else - can suggest a better way of listing these items, we will be pleased to hear. Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team) EMUs Extract from the 2015 Guide.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Thanks for the reply although I'm not so sure I agree with many of the points mentioned and it doesn't really answer the issue about inconsistencies. Both 2 and 4 car EPB were around the same time. Splitting 2&4 car units for some categories and BR&SR builds hardly help rationalise and keep the list down in length (a stated prime aim/consideration). AFAIA the majority of both 2&4 car BR under-frames were the same length (but in N gauge and inch or two difference is not so much an issue) If they are kept separate for differences in area of operation then why are many units lumped together (like 313/314/315/507 & 509 and 320/321 and 322). Even if limited to start with most 2&4 car EPBs ended up running over most of the BR(S) third rail suburban network. If the Tyneside EPB and MLV are put together as one category then why not also the BR EPBs and MLVs. The class 466s have a thick raised panel and air-con intake grille over the cabs (and also the numerically smaller 465 sub classes 465/2 & 465/9 but not the other 465s) and have a toilet compartment. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted December 10, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2015 Hello Grahame We have said that we believe that we have listed the EMUs (et al) in an appropriate manner. The reasons for units such as 313 etc being combined were clearly stated as Poll Team Notes in The Guide. We have also said that if you have a better way to suggest, please let us know in the form of a list similar to ours with some sample Guide text and it will be given full consideration. We also believe that anyone looking at the results will be able to tell where the perceived priorities lay. Don't forget that Class 416/2 is already available in 00, so any combination of EPBs would have to take that into account. Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Don't forget that Class 416/2 is already available in 00, so any combination of EPBs would have to take that into account. Why is that? N gauge is a different scale, the votes are cast on different lists and the results are published separately. So why can't the categories be different for each scale? G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I'm just impressed I'm not the only one voting for the Cambrian Jones Goods. (I'd vote for the Scottish one too!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLPG Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Hello David I think these are the ones you want. If you need any others, just ask. Please bear in mind that The Poll is 'not an exact science'. Items are deleted and new ones go in each year, whilst others - for the best reasons - may be amended, split, combined or possibly moved from one category to another. Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team) Thanks Brian for the stats. My interest is around the J26/27. Polled high for the last 4 years and topped the LNER section this year. I really hope it is picked up by one of the RTR manufacturers soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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