Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[mikemeg]

If I was 26 rather than 66 I might be bothered but as it is, I just don't care. I'm much more gratified by the help of modellers I've been following for years.

 

The PDK metal is really tough stuff. I need to drill some holes for pipework and a hand-held pin vice hardly touches it.

 

Mike's comment about starting with a difficult kit interested me. I'm not sure how genuinely difficult the B16 is. There are a couple of curves to make but otherwise the kit seems to be an issue in routine soldering with well designed slots for the key parts, so any errors are mine rather than any intrinsic difficulty with the kit. And the B16 was a loco I wanted. I'm already looking at the B16/2. Stupid boy (old man).. 

 

However we continue to make progress....just.

 

John

 

John,

 

For what it's worth, I'm now 68 and didn't build an etched kit until around five or six years ago; then a mere 62. My first etched kit, which was also a tender loco (LNER Q5/2 0-8-0), took me around four months to build, much of which was coming to grips with the soldering of these kits. So I did much the same as you have with the entry point!! I did read up on building etched kits, notably on here - RMWeb, though using other sources as well. I also practised the soldering - largely to find the right iron, the best solder, most effective flux, etc. - on scrap brass and nickel silver before launching into the kit itself. This helped a lot as it identified just what was necessary to achieve a solid and unobtrusive joint.

 

In hindsight, ideally, I should have started on one of the simpler prototypes - though I didn't have that choice - with a flat footplate (no curves), largish valances, big side tanks and no outside motion other than the coupling rods. And given the choice then I would now advise anyone, setting out on the building of etched kits, to start simple if only to minimise the 'cost of entry' - cheaper kit, fewer wheels, smaller gearbox and motor, etc - and less to go wrong.

 

But I never took that advice so why should anyone else?

 

Oh and my first ever scratch builds, done around ten years ago when I came back to this hobby, were an LNER T1, a 4-8-0 tank and an LNER A6 4-6-2 tank so, again, contravening the advice above. I still have those first scratch building attempts and am still proud of them!!

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited December 29, 2015 by mikemeg

[polybear]

I also practised the soldering - largely to find the right iron, the best solder, most effective flux, etc. - on scrap brass and nickel silver before launching into the kit itself.

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

May I ask - what conclusions did you come to as a result of these experiments?

 

Many thanks

Brian

[DLT]

Just caught up with this project after a break.

 

In my experience, if you ask ten modellers what the best soldering irons or methods are, you will get ten different answers!

My thoughts are that a 25watt is not powerful enough for etched brass kit construction.  It takes too long to heat up a join, the brass will be conducting the heat away too quickly.  A more powerful iron will help to get heat in and make the join a lot more quickly.  It will seem a lot easier to do, and you will get a much better joint as a result.

 

One thing I've always made when assembling loco bodies is a cradle (made of plywood or whatever), that supports the footplate and keeps it flat and level during assembly.  So successful have I found this, that I wouldn't contemplate a loco build without one.

Example below from my SR Z-Class construction a while ago.

 

 

 

 

You have received some excellent, practical advice on this thread, from people who are experienced and enthusiastic modellers.

 

Those small-minded few who have told you not to bother have obviously never built anything themselves.  If they had they would know the pitfalls and obstacles that have to be overcome in order to actually build a complex kit and create a working model from it.

All the best,

Dave.

Edited December 30, 2015 by DLT

[rowanj]

Thanks Dave - another useful tip to add to those already offered,

 

The body etches are nearly completed so I chanced a few photos to highlight the areas which I could attend to before adding the whitemetal castings. One is attached, I've made some improvement to the centre splasher, and will straighten the steampipe and handrail where a couple of knobs and a joint have come loose. I also keep losing the lampiron forward of the chimney.

 

I made a stab at replicating the pipework under the RH cab step, and also a pipe which comes out of the RH smokebox side, The handrails on the footplate above the leading pair of steps, as well as the 2 very small steps on the smokebox door need to be added,

 

The loco actually, at least to my eyes, looks better in the flesh than in the photo, (honest} and I've just given it a good run-in round the layout and am pleased with the running. The Highlevel gearbox/motor was a doddle to put together and I'll certainly use them again.

Edited December 31, 2015 by rowanj

[rowanj]

I fitted the bogie with a cut down spring to assist running and, to my surprise, it worked perfectly, even on my tightest curves.

 

I'm looking to fit representations of the cylinder draincocks but struggling to see the correct style. TW has fitted a rod projecting forward from the centre of the front cylinder cover, but the photo of the loco I'm modelling doesn't seem to have one. In fact, the only photo I can find which does is in lner livery. Was the removal a later BR mod ? Any information gratefully received.

 

John

Edited January 1, 2016 by rowanj

[rowanj]

The chassis is now complete with  representation of cylinder draincocks and guardirons fitted. Neither of these items were in my kit, and the latter, particularly, should have been offered , I would have thought.

I'll now give the loco body a good clean before fitting the last of the detail fittings, for which I'll use superglue. then it's into the paint shop.

 

[mikemeg]

Hi Mike,

 

May I ask - what conclusions did you come to as a result of these experiments?

 

Many thanks

Brian

 

Brian,

 

The conclusions from the soldering practice :-

 

1) Lead free solder is a complete waste of time on brass and/or nickel silver. Therefore I opted to use one of the older (though still commercially available) solders containing lead which is obtainable off the Internet and is almost certainly produced in a country outside Europe; where leaded solder is not now 'allowed' to be produced.

 

2) Liberal application of liquid flux, to the area to be soldered, obviously aids both the flow and the adhesion of the solder but I found that, prior to applying any flux, cleaning the area to be soldered with the glass fibre brush just prior to soldering, really does aid the free flow of the solder. Brass not only tarnishes very quickly but may also carry a coating from the etching process, which can be cut through with a few strokes of the glass fibre brush.

 

3) I settled on an Antex 50W variable temperature iron after playing around with a 25W iron. I've used this iron (the 50W) on all of the kits I have built and have been very satisfied with it. The key thing with soldering is to get enough heat onto the metal to allow the solder to flow, rather than creating an 'amorphous blob' in the apex of the parts to be joined!!

 

4) After experimenting with a Carrs flux, a flux cream and various other commercially available fluxes, I made some by diluting neat Phosphoric Acid with water in the ratio 1 : 15 acid to water. It was my old mate Mick Nicholson who first alerted me to this and it really does work a treat. Care must obviously be taken in handling the phosphoric acid (this stuff will dissolve glass - it is used to etch glass - though not plastic) so always use a plastic container. I use one of those plastic containers in which vitamin supplements are sold.

 

5) Wherever possible, solder from the inside so that the soldering is invisible. If soldering must be done, externally, then once the item is soldered remove any excess with files, emery paper and a glass fibre brush until the joint is both flush and clean.

 

6) Resist the temptation to use solder as a filler. If a joint is badly seated or shows a visible gap, then rework the join rather than trying to fill any gaps with solder. For instance I always fill the slots in the etched mainframes but I normally use a piece of scrap etch soldered into the gap and then filed flush, rather than simply filling the gaps with solder.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 6, 2016 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Some really useful tips from Mike. I invested half way through this exercise in an Antex 50 watt temperature adjustable iron and it made life so much easier. It was astonishing, to me, how high I needed to set the temperature to get solder to flow on the footplate. The thick PDK brass is a good and bad thing, I suppose, in that it needs more heat and is tougher to form, but holds its' final shape and is less prone to crinkling or distorting.

 

The B16 has been through the paintshop and I've begun the lining.  The model is based on an excellent colour photo of 61248 in store in 1959 at York before emerging for its' last season in the following Spring. I intend to weather it but not as "hard" as the state of the loco in the picture. So my next and last photos will be the completed loco.

 

I've thoroughly enjoyed this kit,Though I haven't found it straightforward, anyone with experience will make a much better fist of it than me. Getting the bogie to run was a problem after all, despite it seeming to run well on the first couple of trials. My track isn't the flattest and I finally adapted Micklner's suggestion to use a Hornby A3/4 style fitting which allowed more play. All seems well now.

 

 

 

 

[mikemeg]

Some really useful tips from Mike. I invested half way through this exercise in an Antex 50 watt temperature adjustable iron and it made life so much easier. It was astonishing, to me, how high I needed to set the temperature to get solder to flow on the footplate. The thick PDK brass is a good and bad thing, I suppose, in that it needs more heat and is tougher to form, but holds its' final shape and is less prone to crinkling or distorting.

 

Checking my Antex soldering iron, it is 50W not 40W as I stated in the posting above. And I do tend to run it pretty hot, though I don't leave it on for extended periods of time as the tips will burn away quite quickly.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[rowanj]

To my relief, although I wont be entering any competitions with it, I have managed to end up with a working model which looks like a B16/1. The attached photos show the finished model, though I'll do a bit of tidying up where I've been a bit heavy-handed with the rust.

 

To say I enjoyed this exercise is an understatement. I certainly would recommend folk to have a go but with certain caveats, and I'd be very interested to see what more experienced builders think.

 

1 - Kit building is not cheap. Assuming you already have paint and transfers, you don't get much change out of £200 by the time you add wheels and motor. For the same money, I got a Hornby D16 and J50 from my family for Christmas and they certainly look better than my effort. I certainly won't build a kit for which there is a modern RTR, but luckily that still leaves plenty of scope.

 

2- I underestimated the tools I needed. My iron wasn't hot enough, so that was another £50. I also invested in new files, knives and blades and tweezers. Obviously these will be reused but are still an initial cost for new builders.

 

3- Soldering these kits is a combination of art, science and magic, Soldering bits of wire and even etch coach sides didn't really prepare me for this. There is a wide range of advice on the net and Mike(meg)'s post here is particularly helpful. I finally found a method which worked though I was well through the kit before it happened and I'm not there yet.

 

4-  PDK kits are perfectly suitable for new builders, but need to be made alongside a raft of photographic and written info to supplement the instructions. There were a number of added details to fabricate - pipe runs, cylinder bolts,etc - which are very obvious on the real thing but not present in the kit, and are not referred to in the instructions, Research told me that experienced builders have personal preferences in the order in which they assemble their locos, so blindly following the guidance in the kit in the way I used to build plastic kits might not be the best way forward. The secret seems to be to plan ahead to identify where smaller parts will be difficult to get the iron to and work out the best time to fit them. ArthurK's instructions seem particularly good at helping you do this.

 

5- Start with a simpler loco by all means as a matter of principle but build a kit of a loco you really want. Tenders are relatively simple, but Walchaerts valve gear isn't. Leading and trailing bogies are an added complication to be taken into account to ensure trouble-free running.

 

So here are the photos to conclude this thread from my perspective. My thanks once again to those who offered such valuable help and support over the last month.

 

John

Edited January 8, 2016 by rowanj

[46256]

John nice model well done...would love to see it as per the photo behind it....being a LMR man, engines without some grime dont seem "right"

 

 

Cheers brian

[DougN]

John well done! I struggled with the first few kit builds with tools and location 20odd years ago. My second full kit build was of a Dave Bradwell J27 in of all places Kokopo in Papua New Guinea! Not some where you can pick up tools or extra bits easily!

 

I will add one thing to what Mike has said.. The best tool after the soldering is a Dremel (I will add this is the corded version!) with a 3jaw chuck. It can make drilling the brass extremely easy. It has another tool which I find a god send and that is a jewellers wire brush wheel. It cleans the solder off very quickly and cleanly. Generally it doesn't even damage the surface of the brass! The 3jaw chuck will go down to almost the smallest drill bit as well

 

They are pricey and get one with all the bits as it is cheaper than the small kits do end up more expensive once you start buying the tools. I am in Australia and just checked out B&Q and the corded ones vary from 28 to about 90 quid no doubt others will recommend cheaper retailers but it is one tool I would no longer be without.

 

Good on you for having a go and I will look forward to the next thread!

[rowanj]

Hi Doug. Thanks for the post. I have a couple of Dremels _ my late father passed one on to me , and they are great. I used them predominantly for carving lumps from RTR coaches and then tidying joints in the soldered etch replacement sides and they are great for cleaning solder. I also use them when bodging plastic RTR loco bodies. As you say, once you have one, they quickly become indispensable.

Next thread .. I don't know. The idea here was to try to show that a beginner could produce something worthwhile, and I'm not sure if another set of posts would add much.

Best wishes

John

[DougN]

Your welcome, John.

 

Each time I have been building things on the scalefor list I tend to hear nothing, but people do respond and each difficulty recorded with a kit. Is a great reference. The other thing I find is it encourages you to keep modelling. I am a lot younger than you and with family and work there is not much time for modelling. I have found when writing things up it keeps me interested to get the item finished. It also makes for new comers to the kit and modelling in general avoid pit falls and encourages people to have a go.

 

I feel it is disappointing that you have received negative PM's. The only way to get better is to practise and have people like Tony Wright and others Arthur Kimber is another advise on where things went right and where they went wrong, but more importantly how to redeem the situation. But to be blatantly negative is not productive or encouraging to any one.

 

Please add to your topics and see how your skills improve.

[MarkC]

Well done, John. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who will watch out for your next project too

[Shez]

I too have really enjoyed following your thread. Please keep posting on any new builds. 

 

While the experienced builder can provide advice and expertise, very often its threads like yours that can encourage people to have a go, and that skills are learned not something you are born with.

 

Your reflections on the build were really interesting. As a relative newcomer to kit building I found that in many ways the first loco I built was in fact the most expensive. On moving on to the second and third I found that I already had a lot of the tools and extra material  I needed, and that I had learned where I could save money by improvising.  

 

Mark

[mikemeg]

Can I offer a further word of advice.

 

I learned this in an entirely different discipline (bidding for contracts in the Information Technology industry) many years ago. Whenever we were successful in our bids, we rarely if ever analysed what we had done right. However, when we were unsuccessful in our bids, we analysed the hell out of why we had lost, what we had done wrong, who had won and why.

 

So how does this relate to kit building? Well on finishing a build we all sit back and look at what we have just done, oft times from a rather self satisfied, less than objective view. It is only later that we start to look objectively at what we have not done properly, what isn't quite straight, what could be improved. So the lesson for me was, at the end of each build, to review the build really critically :-

 

Was the level of accuracy what was required i.e. .5 mm (.020") isn't good enough; .1 mm (.004") is what's required?

 

Is everything absolutely straight which should be straight, i.e. footplates, handrails, etc?

 

Are there any gaps between adjoining sections i.e. cab sides and footplate, footplate and valances, etc.?

 

Do the loco and tender ride at exactly the same height and each exactly level?

 

Have all external traces of solder been removed?

 

Are the chimney and dome castings seated tightly on the smokebox and boiler.

 

Are the safety valves and whistle mounted straight?

 

Etc., etc.

 

Initially, I would write these things down, using the PC. Now the checklist is becoming second nature but here's the thing. The checklist now forms the guiding principles for the build as it progresses so that as each stage is done, the appropriate item(s) on the checklist guide the build and guide whether that process/stage is acceptable or whether it must be redone. At the very least, the checklist highlighted the areas where great care and attention were/are required.

 

Many processes/stages of building a kit can quite easily be redone or rectified at the time but if further stages/processes are undertaken, then redoing or rectifying an earlier part of the build becomes almost impossible. And the further one proceeds then the harder it becomes to redo or rectify earlier stages.

 

In essence one becomes one's own most critical judge.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited January 10, 2016 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

All good advice, Mike and I'm sure, amongst my faults, was a degree of impatience to get on with things. Having said that, I've just had an-hour in the (cold) loft playing trains and watching the B16 with 6 Gresley corridors running faultlessly. Probably famous last words, I haven't enjoyed myself as much  for ages on the modelling side and to see it operating was great.

John

Edited January 10, 2016 by rowanj

[nerron]

 I've just had an-hour in the (cold) loft playing trains and watching the B16 with 6 Gresley corridors running faultlessly.

This is a great achievement.I have seen many kit built locomotives that look immaculate but run like dogs.Even with modern motors and gearboxes it requires some skill and patience to achieve smooth running.

[mikemeg]

All good advice, Mike and I'm sure, amongst my faults, was a degree of impatience to get on with things. Having said that, I've just had an-hour in the (cold) loft playing trains and watching the B16 with 6 Gresley corridors running faultlessly. Probably famous last words, I haven't enjoyed myself as much  for ages on the modelling side and to see it operating was great.

John

 

And seeing it run makes it all worth while. So onto your next build.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[DLT]

All good advice, Mike and I'm sure, amongst my faults, was a degree of impatience to get on with things. Having said that, I've just had an-hour in the (cold) loft playing trains and watching the B16 with 6 Gresley corridors running faultlessly. Probably famous last words, I haven't enjoyed myself as much  for ages on the modelling side and to see it operating was great.

John

 

Brilliant!  So whats the next project?

[rowanj]

Next build/project or quit while I'm ahead?

 

Actually I'm unsure what to do next. I have a J77 on order with ArthurK but Mike(meg) has already described his build, so I doubt there is any value to my adding to that.

I will only build a loco which hasn't got a modern RTR equivalent. My interests are BR ER/NER mid 50's - mid 60's with a nod into ex-GC/GE territory. Too catholic for many, I suppose.. So I'm not sure what to look at next. A PDK B16/2 or3 is an option, but I understand the clearances at the front end are extremely tight. I looked at a C12 and A5 but am unsure about a suitable source. Has anyone tried the LRM C12?  A J24/25 would be interesting.

Any suggestions gratefully received, remembering please that I still am wearing my "L" plates.

John

Edited January 11, 2016 by rowanj

[micklner]

If you can find one a Craftsman A5 is a fairly easy build. I  had one years ago it may come with a pre rolled boiler?, they also did a C12 .

 

 52F Models do a current much better detailed version of the A5.

[rowanj]

Arthur Kimber's North Eastern Kits J77 arrived. As Mike already has a thread on building these kits, I'll restrict my posts to anything which, as a beginner, may leave me scratching my head, and therefore be useful to others at a similar point in the learning curve.

 

I should say at the outset that dealing with Arthur has been a pleasure. His kits have a great reputation and first glance at the contents suggest it's well deserved. The instructions are very comprehensive. My kit is the Darlington re-build with the J72 -style Worsdell cab, Strangely, most good photos are of the earlier Fletcher-cab rebuilds from York, but I have tracked down a couple of the Worsdell version. I'll probably model the same loco as Mike, which moved to North Blyth after leaving Starbeck.

 

Getting a decent footplate will be important. The kit's footplate is in 2 pieces, the top being detailed and pretty flimsy. The lower piece is sturdier, being made of thicker metal, though neither are as thick as PDK. This should make soldering easier. The kit instructions suggest using the cab etch and lamp irons to ensure squareness and correct alignment of the slots . However Arthur helpfully attached a note suggesting using 8ba bolts through the chassis retention holes, as well as a recommended soldering technique. I used both methods, and the photos show the footplate assembly prior to soldering. But just to show my total incompetence, I made the folds incorrectly on the tanks - the half-etches should be on the inside.  However I was alerted in time and managed to correct it without breaking any joint. Thanks, Arthur.

 

The bottom piece needs 4 folds, 2 of which are the buffer beams and the others form the valences. This certainly makes for an easy life,

Edited January 13, 2016 by rowanj

[sp1]

Wow, that was quick.

For us novices, how do you form the bends, and where not be etch lines do you place the 'bending bars'?