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RH&D Scale


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Hi all,

 

I'd been in the process of building a small scenic N gauge layout when I happened to notice Bachmanns new narrow gauge Skarloey coupled with Pecos attractive stock. This in turn made me think a 009 layout could be an interesting, fun and different project.It would also potentially enable me to set it in the late Victorian era and create somewhat of a fictional line with a back history; something I've always been keen to model.

 

On a slightly different tangent, one question I did have though was whether if I paired one of my Dapol N gauge locos (such as an A3) with Peco stock it would make a rough representation of the Romney Hythe et al? In my head it does but appreciate it may bit, especially if trying to insert a scale driver!

 

Greg

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The scale of the RH&D locos is not, I understand, in proportion with the track gauge. I believe they're nearer to 1/3 scale if they could be said to have a scale at all*. They were, after all, designed as real locomotives in their own right as was typical of the time. It's only really in relatively recent times that true scale miniature locomotives have become common. Even now, though, miniatures designed to do a job of work and be run regularly tend to be simplified or freelance designs rather than the superdetailed masterpieces.

 

 

*So they would actually be nearer to being giant TT3 models than anything else ;).

Edited by PatB
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Part of the problem is that the gauge of the RHDR is 15 inch, roughly a quarter of standard gauge, but Greenly, typically, designed the locos as approximately one third full size. This at least gave the driver a bit more room, although I suspect that most of the accommodation is provided by the tenders, which are much, much longer and mounted on bogies.

Hence the best fit would be using an N gauge loco on a 6mm scale layout, but as there are not many of those about, I suspect that it would work best as an O Gauge scene, but that would make the diver even larger to get in! Maybe some S Scale figures would help here.

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The problem is the N gauge stuff is a fair bit bigger than a scale model of a RHDR loco as 9mm track works out at 2ft 3in. It would need to be a 1:200th (ish) scale model on 5mm to be reasonably accurate for 15 inch. I know there are a few layouts where they have used it with custom built coaches but I think you'd find 009 coaches a bit too big behind a N gauge loco. There's nothing to say though that some wealthy enthusiast didn't take it further and build scale locos on 2ft 3in but then I suspect they want fairly low profile coaches to match so they could run at speed and look like a mini main line ;)

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Some of the earlier 15" gauge engines were built closer to quarter scale but they were/are Atlantics. Very cramped conditions for the driver, they were really intended to be used in parks and fairgrounds. Some are still in existence and can occasionally be seen in steam. 

One scale that is used successfully is 09, that is 7mm scale on 9mm track. A google search for 09 should bring up some info. While there is a limited amount of off the shelf stock available much of it is hand built.

Edited by Ohmisterporter
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Miniature railway gauges tend to be in the 15" to 20" range, some later ones use 10 1/4" gauge.

 

If you want to see miniature railways in model form, do a forum search for Colin Peake's "Shifting Sands" layout. The point above about the RH&DR locos having long bogie tenders us a good one, which had escaped my eye until pointed out.

Edited by rockershovel
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While the RHDR locos are basically 1/3rd scale models of Gresley pacifics - with extra long tenders and more man-sized fittings and working parts - there is at least one true scale 15" gauge model of a Gresley A3 working in the British Isles and the Cleethorpes Coast Light Railway is home to a scale model of a Robinson LNER (exGCR) 2-8-0 - along with lots of other fascinating bits.

 

The recommendation to look up Colin Peake's "Shifting Sands" layout is definitely good, but also look for the 7mmNGA's "Going Minimum Gauge" publication and anything by Owen Ryder. 15" gauge / Miniature railways can provide a very rich seam of modelling inspiration.

 

Regards

Chris H

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Hi all,

 

I'd been in the process of building a small scenic N gauge layout when I happened to notice Bachmanns new narrow gauge Skarloey coupled with Pecos attractive stock. This in turn made me think a 009 layout could be an interesting, fun and different project.It would also potentially enable me to set it in the late Victorian era and create somewhat of a fictional line with a back history; something I've always been keen to model.

 

On a slightly different tangent, one question I did have though was whether if I paired one of my Dapol N gauge locos (such as an A3) with Peco stock it would make a rough representation of the Romney Hythe et al? In my head it does but appreciate it may bit, especially if trying to insert a scale driver!

 

Greg

Hi Greg

 

As others have stated using 9mm track for a 7mm scale model would be over scale, at 15.4 inches not 2 ft 3ins as quoted earlier the size of the locomotives would be slightly under scale for 7mm, 3/10ths not a 1/3rd. They would not be scale for the RH&D but somewhere between the RH&DR and Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway.

 

I did start a 7mm layout of a fictitious miniature railway using N gauge bits and bobs, these were later passed on to Colin Peake. I moved up to 1/24th scale using 00 locos and bits. This has not progressed as I enjoy doing 4mm modelling too much.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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Hi Greg

 

As others have stated using 9mm track for a 7mm scale model would be over scale, at 15.4 inches not 2 ft 3ins as quoted earlier.

My quote of 2'3" was based on the OP's post about modelling it in 4mm, alongside the Bachmann Skarloey, not 7 ;)
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In my earlier posting I mentioned the locos built to quarter scale being on the small side. If you check the dimensions of the R&ER locos you can see how small Synolda is compared to say River Esk. The Bachmann Atlantic would be a good base for modelling a 15" gauge loco but you need to carve out a driver's seat in the tender and to be honest there wouldn't be a lot of tender left. It would be better scratchbuild a tender with bogies and a longer length. I wish I could say I had actually done this myself but it another item on the "one day" list.

http://rerps.co.uk/locomotives/

 

Edit, See also post #13

Edited by Ohmisterporter
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In my earlier posting I mentioned the locos built to quarter scale being on the small side. If you check the dimensions of the R&ER locos you can see how small Synolda is compared to say River Esk. The Bachmann Atlantic would be a good base for modelling a 15" gauge loco but you need to carve out a driver's seat in the tender and to be honest there wouldn't be a lot of tender left. It would be better scratchbuild a tender with bogies and a longer length. I wish I could say I had actually done this myself but it another item on the "one day" list.

 

Since the Bachmann Atlantic is OO gauge, are we entering the rather different field of 16mm modelling? It's interesting that this would highlight the narrowness of the 16.5mm gauge. For this larger scale, the 15" gauge should be 20mm, 16.5 representing a measly 12 1/2 inches, showing that these miniature locos were not exactly to scale either.
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My quote of 2'3" was based on the OP's post about modelling it in 4mm, alongside the Bachmann Skarloey, not 7 ;)

My confusion, it was the title containing RH&D that threw me. I assumed the OP must be taking about a miniature railway not a narrow gauge line having gone down that route in the past.

 

Using an N gauge loco main line loco like a pacific on a narrow gauge line would be like having a half size loco if in 4mm scale.

 

Edit ...Whoops forgot "Sorry."

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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Since the Bachmann Atlantic is OO gauge, are we entering the rather different field of 16mm modelling? It's interesting that this would highlight the narrowness of the 16.5mm gauge. For this larger scale, the 15" gauge should be 20mm, 16.5 representing a measly 12 1/2 inches, showing that these miniature locos were not exactly to scale either.

 

A thousand pardons! For some reason my post number 10 above was cut short when I hit the post button. The last thing I did before posting was put a gap between better and scratchbuilt and for some reason half a sentence was cut off. What it should have read was after "one day list".  This would be Gn15 which uses 16.5mm track as 15" gauge for approx 1/24 scale. There is some variation in G scale, but anything between 1/22 to 1/25 looks acceptable together on the layouts I have seen.

 

Sorry about the confusion.

Edited by Ohmisterporter
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For any info and help on 15in gauge railways and modelling them, have a look at the Gn15 online forum the Gnatterbox. Initially set up for (G?) scale Colin soon brought in O scale modelling, although some had already being playing with O9, including me. I had thought about possibility of using Triang TT gauge as scale and gauge matched 1/32nd scale  RH&DR., but my interest in that gauge is more towards minimum not miniature gauge.

There is a model of the armoured RH&DR train available. Think it is one of the military modelling companies, but it is intended as a static model, so might be difficult to motorize. One possibility for 9mm gauge would be to use bodies from Continental TT(1/120 scale - 2.5mm/ft) which would be nearer 1/3rd size on 1/4 gauge track.

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If you are interetsed in modelling the RH&D railway in 09 thaen kits for some stock are available from Derek Smith www.ek3d.co.uk The 7mmNGA are also promoting the scale gauge as well.  My own Layout Clee Valley Railway is 09 but more loosely based on the Bure Valley Railway with stock on loan from other 15inch railways.

 

Peter

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As a rule of thumb (and because I've personally tried it :) ) N gauge Locos with Peco 009 coaches and O scale figures when combined  provide a reasonable facsimilie of the RHDR, just as long as nobody gets a slide rule out :). Bears very little actual resemblance to the real thing but conveys the 'feel' of a 15 inch line quite nicely, and with a little ingenuity should actually serve very nicely for you.

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Greg

 

Knowing what one of your other interests is, why not go for 0-9, using N gauge to represent a "scale" miniature railway, as opposed to a Greenly "practical" miniature railway, or 0-16.5 narrow gauge.

 

A bit of 0-16.5 could easily creep into the goods yard on my layout!

 

Herewith a repeat photo, to make the "N as scale miniature" point.

 

Kevin

post-26817-0-88780500-1451477831_thumb.jpg

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I have a roughly 33% finished cad for a 3D printed body for the German liliputbahn Pacifics (the older ones, rather than the 3 less attractive ones which made it to the uk). In 1/43.5 it fits the minitrix Pacific chassis spot on (O9). However I sort of got bored and haven't had much time to get on with stuff lately. The tender is longer than the n gauge tender chassis, with the loco length not much changed. The body/boiler size is significantly bigger though.

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Grange and Hodder do some 09 stuff based I believe on the Heywood stock tat ran on the R & ER t hough they might be sold under a different trade name as they are produced by one of their staff along with quite a few scenic accessories.

 

mention ahs been made of River Esk.  The scale model pacifics struggled on the gradients on the Ratty and when the quarry opened Greenley designed River Esk to haul the granite trains from the Quarry at Beckfoot to Murthwaite.   The pacific lacked power, particularly boiler capacity to Greenley came up with the 1/3 scale loco on 1/4 scale track idea.  The same compromise that he used to introduce 00 on HO track.  

 

River Esk was then used as the design prototype for the Romney Engines.

 

Jamie

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  • 2 years later...

At risk of further heaping of burning coals and arguing how many angels may stand on the head of a pin.

 

Are we not loosing track of the simple pleasure derived from operating our own version of a mainline in miniature.

 

Using an adapted OO loco running down O-16.5 track against a background of larger scale models be they of 1;12, 1:19 or 1:22.5.

 

Of course one might use HO scale to muddy the water further.

 

I've looked at making a model garden line from Marklin my world product which is stand off model stock to start with and using 1:19 accessories and structures.

 

Would seem the way forward with such a project.

 

As it would never get to a formal exhibition the sliding scale of product won't attract the true scale police looking for the 0.25mm errors.

 

Joe Public and non railwayist types will appreciate the model as a whole and my Muddlers Licence can escape unendorsed for malpractice. :jester:

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Having been involved with the gNatterbox forum and Gn15 for many years, we have been through much of this discussion before. There are two ,possibly, disctint themes for modelling 15in, namely the miniature(eg R&E, RH&D), and minimum(eg Heywood). The two did mix, and can be mixed in model form.

 

That aside, if anyone wants to model something like th RH&D, then using Triang TT3 locos, and a scale of 1/32, is virtually as near to r2r as you will get. The locos are then models of 1/3 scale standard gauge, and the track is 1/4 scale. 1/32 seems to often be ignored by modellers,yet probably can find resouces and inspiration from toy suppliers. Unfortuately companies often muddle up scale and gauge, hence G scale, G gauge, and advertise 1/32 scale items as G, and visa versa.

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I've often thought a US Bachmann 'Gordon' could be made into a passable RH&DR-style Pacific in Gn15.

It should, as would any of the Hornby A3 Flying Scotsman locos, as the RHDR based their loco on the Gresley loco. There is a photo somewhere with both together. 16.5mm gauge is slightly over what it should be, but acceptable.

 

For anyone wanting to use 9mm gauge, using a scale of 2.5mm/ft(ie 1/120 scale) models of standard gauge locos would be close to scale for an O scale model. German TT might be an option.

 

As an aside, anyone modelling 18in gauge should use 10.5mm gauge, which conveniently does have r2r track and some locos/stock available.

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The 1981 vintage Hornby A1 might be better than older or newer A3s as none of the Romnet engines have banjo or pear shaped domes. Also A1 cabs were slightly higher like the Romney engines. Of course, most of them have parallel boilers though some have had or still have tapered pattern lagging.

Edited by BernardTPM
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"Having been involved with the gNatterbox forum and Gn15 for many years, we have been through much of this discussion before. There are two ,possibly, disctint themes for modelling 15in, namely the miniature(eg R&E, RH&D), and minimum(eg Heywood). The two did mix, and can be mixed in model form."


 


​Indeed, as can be seen on "Waterfield Hall", a 1/12 scale exhibition layout owned by friends of mine, and which I occasionally get to play with at exhibitions. "Dolls house" figures, furniture etc and O gauge track with Mamod points.


Mostly a Heywood style "Estate Railway", with some miniature elements.post-18087-0-26878700-1517213668_thumb.jpgpost-18087-0-86300900-1517213693_thumb.jpgpost-18087-0-55473500-1517213716_thumb.jpgpost-18087-0-65790400-1517213738_thumb.jpgpost-18087-0-43669200-1517213890_thumb.jpg


 


https://www.facebook.com/waterfieldhall/

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