Family 8x4 OO layout - Trains running again.

[Jaggzuk]

Well, waiting for New Year so, no better time that to start a new topic.

Having pretty much completed the planning for a new 8x4 layout for my 2 young boys (5 and 2 1/2) and myself , see here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104302-a-new-family-8x4-layout/, I decided to go for a big Christmas build project, or more aptly an Engineering Blockade!

First of all here is the final plan.


My aim is to keep this topic up to date with the layout build process and hope it will be both informative and enjoyable to read. Apart from the obvious, building a layout for my boys (and me), I want to use the build time to try out lots of different methods, techniques and materials. So I will drop these trials in to the topic as and when I try something out.

So this first post will be a bit of an update on the progress so far achieved.

The old layout was completely striped back to just the baseboard and the new build was started on Dec 16th. I started with the 1:1 plan printed from SCARM placed on the baseboard and I cut little slots at 3” spacing across all the tracks and then marked the position of the rails on to the baseboard. Next I cut out a secondary baseboard for the station and goods yard area and this was to be fixed at +40mm level from the main board. Before fixing it in place I cut 60mm dia round holes in the main board so that all the point motors could be fixed to the upper board. There is nothing flash about the station board, just 9mm MDF on various softwood spaces.

The next big part was to create all the gradients. I decided to use Woodland Scenic Risers and Inclines with a 2% gradient. I was a bit hesitant to use such a product purely on the cost, but I have to say they have made life so easy and I had all the gradient track lines done in two evenings! Retrospectively, well worth the cost outlay. To fix in place, I simply used PVA glue to stick the various layers together and to hold everything in place I used bamboo skewers through the layers and a few heavy weights.

Next task was to create the land forms. I used medium density polystyrene, which is very firm and does not crush very easily. You have to be carefully what you use to stick polystyrene, PVA take a very long time to dry as it cannot breath through the styrene, silicone sealant is OK, but some will melt the styrene. I use Pinkgrip to fix the styrene boards to the MDF baseboard and then silicone or Pinkgrip when layering up. Again I used a few bamboo skewers through the layers.

I did do some adhesive trials and found that after 24 hours drying time the PVA was still wet and had little adhesion bond. The silicone sealant was OK, it had set but was a bit weak when it came to pull apart test. Pinkgrip was good and strong, but there was a bit of melting to the styrene, but not enough to cause a failure on adhesion. At the end of the day the polystyrene is only being used as a former to be coated with a plaster finish, so a very strong bond is not too important.

Once set, the polystyrene was carved to shape. I tried a homemade hot wire cutter but this overheated my 12v transformer and just took too long to cut with, so it was back to a kitchen knife (oops).

Overall I am really pleased with how quick the landscape came together and the look was what I had planned on SCARM.

The next product I have never used before was plaster impregnated mesh. I bought a pack for 4 rolls and these have done most of the land form. I found this very easy to use on top of the polystyrene. This was one task that my eldest enjoyed helping out with, in fact he has done most of it; a bit of messy fun time. The instructions recommend three layers, but as said before the polystyrene does not crush, so I have only had to use 2 layers of plaster mesh to create a very hard shell.

As I have now run out of the bought rolls, I plan to experiment with powder plaster and various cotton based medium such as cheep dish cloths or old bed sheets – results to be posted later.

Most nights, post Christmas day and once the boys have gone to bed, have been spent half watching TV while making all the landscape structures for the layout; tunnel portals, retaining walls and bridges. At them moment they are all Metcalfe kits and they are great as they just do the job. I intend to tryout other products and in particular Scalescene (or similar PDF print kits) as they provide some really nice looking buildings. The kit building process has been helped with a rather nice bottle of Jura malt.

Anyway that brings things pretty much up to date. The next tasks on the list are: creation of the two tunnels, fixing in place all the retaining walls, attempting some form of rock cutting, building to truss bridge substructure and gluing done all the track beds.

Enough chat for now, so here are the progress photos.


The bare baseboard starting point, 8x4 foot, plus 1 inch all round.



Marking out the track position



Inclines fixed and point motor holes cut out.



Upper station board, gradients, land forms all fixed in place.



Country end, cutting and embankments with land form carved out.



Plaster mesh being laid, great fun and lovely and messy!


Happy New Year to one an all.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Jaggzuk

[Removed a/c]

Great progress !! 

[tjf4375]

That looks like a great track plan with lots of operating flexibility - you've made great use of the space as well, and I really like the gentle s-bend through the station. Look forward to seeing more updates!

[hoover50008]

Good to see a family working together on a project, it may sow the seed for the future.

 

E

[naturol]

Nice layout. Perfect family activity in my book. Will follow with interest.

[Powerhaul 70 Pey]

A great start.  I like the incline and I also like the Metcalfe kits.  What kind of locos and era are you planning on?  What I like best is that it is a family project that you can all enjoy together during its construction and then the running of the trains.

[The Bigbee Line]

I think most readers would like an 8 x 4 to get something running.....

 

I know I would!

[Jaggzuk]

I think I’ve over done it with the whiskey!  Time to open the next bottle, Jura Elixir….  

 

 

 

Quite excited if not slightly apprehensive at the amount of card I now have to stick together!  So this amounts to all the kits needed to create all the embankments, cuttings and bridge substructures; having already done the four tunnel portals and used up one stone retaining wall kit so far.

 

These are curtesy of www.track-shack.com a company I have only just found and they are really good.  Great price, the cheapest I could find on the web and very fast postal turnaround.

 

 

We have had a go at some trial track weathering and ballasting samples.  Ballasting and track weathering to me is one of the most significant aspects to get right, as it form such a visual part of the finished railway, that if you get it wrong it is like a really bad splinter. 

 

So I knocked up a couple of bits of underplayed track and then got some help with the gluing task and was really surprised at how good his hand/finger skill was slowly squeezing one drop of glue at a time out of the syringe and not missing a single piece of ballast!!  In fact he told me to let him do it all… Mmmm, just wonder how much free labour I will get on the main ballast work before some form of bribe comes in to play 

 

 

Not too convinced by the colour of the ballast I have used; Woodland Scenics Medium Brown and Guagemaster Granite ballast.   To me it is too uniform in colour, so I think I will have to create a home blend of colours.  More trials required I think, any advice on mixing ballast (makes / colour) to get a better real life look?

 

 

The other big effort has been in creating the country end landscape using real stone in the form of rock outcrops, cutting and embankment.  I used thin layers of stone from old laminated sandstone roofing slate that I had left over from our house re-roof.  Slightly surprised myself how satisfying this was fitting it all together.  I used fairly liquid plaster to stick it all together and to create the soil overlay. I hope once all the grass, bushed etc. are added it should look the part.

 

General view of the country end

 

Cutting down to the tunnel

 

Embankment up to the flyover with some temp play track in place

 

 

Thanks for all the positive and supportive comments so far, much appreciated, I hope I keep you up to date with regular posts, but the dreaded back to work after the holiday day is looming on Monday.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[Jaggzuk]

A great start.  I like the incline and I also like the Metcalfe kits.  What kind of locos and era are you planning on?  What I like best is that it is a family project that you can all enjoy together during its construction and then the running of the trains.

 

The inclines were a necessity, as I was told the new layout had to have bridges for cars and trains to go under!

 

As for locos and era, well if it were just my layout I was building, then it would be BR Blue 1970 onwards with a strong leaning towards Speedlink and a hint of Network SouthEast all under semaphore signalling, deep sigh.  It was the time I remember so well from my formative railway years.  And this would be my layout when it gets built; North Marsh Road - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/gallery/album_2706/gallery_4412_2706_328042.jpg & http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/469-north-marsh-road-eastern-region-br-blue-oo/

 

 

However, apart from my collection of BR Blue, we have an eclectic mix of other rolling stock, from SR steam to to modem Class 66 and ranging age from old (gifts my Dads collection) to current top spec Bachmann and Hornby.  I buy both new and second-hand plus we have a couple of re-sprays on the go, NWR Yellow coaches to go with the Hornby Railroad yellow sound Class 37.

 

The aim will be to convert all locos to run under DCC power, but in reality I think some will remain DC and so the the layout will have to be dual power control.  This will allow guest non DCC locos to visit us.

 

So what ere? Well I think it will be 1970 to 2016, with steam specials thrown in.  At the end of the day the boys want to play/run with what they see for real.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Jaggzuk

[Captain Kernow]

any advice on mixing ballast (makes / colour) to get a better real life look?

 

 

I think that you can get the results you need by keeping with a variety of Woodland Scenics and/or Carrs ballasts. For OO, you'll find that 'N' gauge ballast is actually more to scale. At the very least, try mixing 'N' and 'OO' ballast. I'd avoid anything that is actually real crushed granite, as I've found you rarely get the colour that you want. I'd spray paint all the track with a dark brown/dark rust type of track colour (you may wish to mix your own, although there are perfectly good ready-mixed paints out there, my preference is for enamels, so I can't advise on acrylics). Once the track is painted (and you may find it satisfying to give a few individual sleepers a separate hue, such as old, bleached-out grey sleepers, or new ones freshly coated with creosote), I'd then start on the ballasting.

 

You'd be surprised how solid diluted PVA can set. Mix a drop of washing up liquid in with the dilute PVA to help the capillary action, and ideally mist some surgical spirit onto the already-ballasted track, before you start droppering the PVA mix on, as this should help the PVA mix to spread.

[Jaggzuk]

I think that you can get the results you need by keeping with a variety of Woodland Scenics... I'd avoid anything that is actually real crushed granite, as I've found you rarely get the colour that you want.

 

Cheers, yep the real granite stuff I have was just too grey and does not look right, might use it to simulate new ballast drops along the track haunch on some parts .  I did try mixing Woodland Scenics and the granite chippings, but I could not get it to mix, it was like oil and water.  It was not until I read the packet label that I discovered the WS stuff is actually crushed nuts shells. Well, I was not expecting that!

 

I need to get some lighter shades, probably buff to mix with all the dark browns I already have.  The  some more trials.

[sdw7300]

Great start. Really looking forward to following this. My two sons are approaching the ages where they'd really appreciate a layout like this so I will be returning for inspiration.

 

Regarding ballast, on anything other than a freshly laid section, most of it would be covered in rust, grease and grime so painting the stuff you have already might be the best option.

 

Thanks for sharing.

Edited January 3, 2016 by sdw7300

[380John]

Hi there,

 

Just to echo the others really, I laid my ballast then after it had dried, used a clean damp brush and 'washed' the sleepers. I then used a variety of acrylic paints mixed with water to form a wash. These can be diluted entirely to your desired to concentration and taste. I suggest starting quite watery and building the different layers up until you reach the look you are after.

 

Great thread will follow with interest.

Cheers,

 

John

[Nearholmer]

Mega-impressed by progress.

 

You've achieved a lot in a short time, and "hats off" to you for getting the children properly involved. I know from very direct experience that it takes a fair bit of forethought to arrange things so that they stay engaged; sometimes I succeed, but frequently I fail miserably, with this.

 

Kevin

[Jaggzuk]

Wow, thanks for all the comments and advise on ballast, the next trial is well underway.  Just need some extra colours of ballast to try out a blend with.

 

 

On 03/01/2016 at 18:59, Nearholmer said:

Mega-impressed by progress.

You've achieved a lot in a short time, and "hats off" to you for getting the children properly involved. I know from very direct experience that it takes a fair bit of forethought to arrange things so that they stay engaged; sometimes I succeed, but frequently I fail miserably, with this.

Kevin

 

Well I have a great team behind me; a very understating wife who has allowed me this holiday to grab as much build time as I can.  Mind you the as the weather has been so rubbish, going out was not very attractive anyway!

 

 

So this will be the final update from the Christmas Engineering Blockage, here on after it will be evening Possessions only, with the odd full weekend engineering works.  But I will keep the updates coming as quick as I can.

 

Today we had a go at getting the land form ready for future scenics. I mixed up some white, black and brown kids paint to a good soil colour and my little helper duly slapped it on as fast as I could mix the next pot full.  Quite a transformation from white plaster to soil.

 

Next, while the house was quiet, I have got on with fixing the track bed.  Not so sure about the card underlay.  It was recommended by a local model shop, but it does not like getting wet with PVA glue and buckles a bit.  I need to create the formation on top of the polystyrene and then a cork layer which helps to create the ballast shoulder, so i might go for two layers of the 1mm rubberised cork instead.  Suggestions?

 

The freezer bags of sand are my idea for applying equal pressure to the whole area of the underlay while it dries.  The bags form themselves to any shape you drop them over.  So far so good.

 

Next update will hopeful be the ballast trail.

 

Oh yes before I forget, we now have a name for the Station as suggested by the eldest: Fox Wood Park, A cross between his favourite wild animal (of the day) and two of the places he likes to play,

 

A few more progress photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[Jaggzuk]

Another quiet night, so I have manage to complete my first ballast trial.  I have never got to this point before, laying and weathering ballast having only every used quite course pure grey granite in the past, some 20 years ago to boot.  So quite happy with my first effort.

 

The trail includes from the left hand side a home blend of grey and light grey real granite N gauge ballast, the middle part is Woodland Scenics Medium Brown with Guagemaster mixed grey granite laid on top as if a fresh ballast drop has been done and finally on the right, pure Woodland Scenics Medium Brown. Weathering is just semi dry brushing with a mix of black and brown kids paint.

 

The formation bed along the cess is yellow builders sand glued with neat PVA and then over washed with black/brown paint.  I have also then had a go with some Woodland Scenics Course Turf (Yellow and Burnt Grass) topped with some 2mm and 4.5mm static grass.  

 

 

 

 

Of the three types I really like this one

 

The next trial will be to try a home blend of some buff and light grey Woodland Scenics ballast.  I have also mange to pick up today some Guagemaster brown (pink) granite ballast, which it the type I see a lot of on my work trackside.  Also manage to get some Surgical Spirit for the wetting agent as recommended by Captain Kernow.

 

Overall I feel quite excited having a play with ballast.and weathering, really boosted my confidence that I will be happy with the outcome and Peco track.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[Captain Kernow]

Of the three types I really like this one

 

 

I do too. The weathering is great, nicely understated and very convincing.

 

 

 

The next trial will be to try a home blend of some buff and light grey Woodland Scenics ballast.  I have also mange to pick up today some Guagemaster brown (pink) granite ballast, which it the type I see a lot of on my work trackside. 

 

 

I prefer the lighter buffs myself, as you can darken them down with paint or weathering powders, but the light grey also looks good when mixed in. Ballast colours do vary, perhaps more so in the past when there were more quarries supplying BR as compared with the three (I believe) major ones now supplying Network Rail, so whatever your personal preference is, is the way to go.

[johnjch2]

Been reading with interest on your work so far. I've had a small delay over xmas but I've started to progress myself with the basic track layed, however I'm now looking at the incline.  I've gone for the 4% Woodland scenic version of yours because I'm not doing two tiers. However I am interested for more info on how you shape the inclines correctly and glue them in the curve (without gluing to the board initially); I think you mentioned that PVA won't work - and you would have to pin somehow or other anyway to keep the shape?

 

Could you explain a little more how you did yours. Once I've got the curve / gradient tested, I'll glue mine to the board (painted ply) again how do u glue to the base board? I've got foam thereafter to cut / shape and place around to make the hills.

[Jaggzuk]

First great to hear from you John, I was just about to post on your topic to see how your layout was progressing.

 

I've gone for the 4% Woodland scenic version of yours because I'm not doing two tiers. 

 

I note you have decided to go for a 4% gradient , which is 1:24 or 2.4deg and to me this is very steep!  The maximum recommended gradient  I have seen on various forums is about 1:35, which would equate the 3% Woodlands Scenics incline set http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/INCLDECLSET/page/1.

 

This works out as:

2% = 1:48 = 1.2 deg. gives a 4" rise over  192" (16 foot)

3% = 1:32 = 1.8 deg. gives a 4.5" rise over  144" (12 foot)

4% = 1:24 = 2.4 deg. gives a 4" rise over  96" (8')

 

However, the maximum gradient for any given layout is more dictated by the capability of your locos and the max length (weight) of any train they will have haul up the gradient.

 

As my eldest was desperate to run a second hand Hornby HST set we bought at a post Christmas Toy fair, I manged to set up a loop on the layout.  This was on the flyover line, so included a full 180 deg 2% gradient around 3rd radius curves.  I was a bit shocked at what the HST could achieve , or more precise what it could not.  With only one powered car (single drive bogie with 2No. traction tyres) it ended up wheel spinning with just 3 coaches and the dummy power car.  Now I think one problem was old traction tyres which feel a bit loose so need replacing and I need to add some extra weight to hope improve things.

 

I then tried a new DCC Bachmann Class 47 with a Back EMF chip and wow what a difference!  No issue with the gradient and with the Back EMF, the loco maintained the same speed from level to the gradient haul.

 

So I guess what I am saying is before you commit to the 4% try out your stock on say a straight line incline and see what you can achieve.  Personally, I would not go steeper than 2% now, old stock just done not like it.

 

 

I am interested for more info on how you shape the inclines correctly and glue them in the curve (without gluing to the board initially); I think you mentioned that PVA won't work - and you would have to pin somehow or other anyway to keep the shape?

 

Could you explain a little more how you did yours. Once I've got the curve / gradient tested, I'll glue mine to the board (painted ply) again how do u glue to the base board? I've got foam thereafter to cut / shape and place around to make the hills.

 

 

So to your question on how I fixed the polystyrene inclines in place

 

I did use PVA glue as there was no issue with this for the Woodlands Scenics inclines/risers.  My previous comment relates more to when you are gluing big slabs of polystyrene where PVA glue fails to set.  With the very narrow zig zag parts of the inclines/risers, there is plenty of air space to help the glue set.

 

My installation steps:

1. Mark out the actual planned track position on the baseboard. Either the edge of the sleepers or the rails will do.
    
2. Mark two offset lines from the track positon to what will be the edges of the  inclines/risers, so you can see them when you come to fix  them in place.  This way you will know that the track will still be central on the riser.
    
3. Fix the fist riser or incline in place.  I worked from my mid height station board and so my first piece was a 1" riser.
    
4. Place a continuous bead of PVA along the zig zag of the riser or incline.
    
5. Holing the riser/incline at a slight upward angle, place one end down on to the baseboard to your offset marks and then place a heavy weight on top, i.e. a tin of beans.  I have a load of old draftsman paper weights which are perfect fort he job.
    
6. Then slowly shape the riser or incline to the rest of your marks and make contact with the baseboard placing further weights to hold in place.
    
7. Continue along your gradient using riser or inclines as appropriate.
    
8. Leave to partially dry for bit, I think I left for about an hour/cup of tea time.
    
9. Next, is fixing the next layer on top, again place a continuous bead of PVA along the zig zag of the riser or incline.
    
10. Fix to on top of the base layer.  Again placing  heavy weights on top.  I also ensured the zig-zags lined up between the layers.
     
11. Additionally, I used bamboo skewers or very thin nails to splice the various layers together just while the glue set.

 

Tip:  make sure you have enough risers to complete the gradient work and of the right thickness!  I ran out of 1" risers on a Sunday, so had to use 1/2" instead, which meant double the gluing work.

 

So in my view you will have to glue the risers/inclines to the baseboard to build up the gradient .  I do not think you can easily pre make a curved gradient off site .

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Jaggzuk

[johnjch2]

Great, thanks for the above, done a few tests today, my new engines go up no problem, a little slippage on my old one. The incline goes up to 4 inch. I'm aiming to reduce this to 3 half inch probably.

 

I'll update my own page shortly with progress. Ps what tunnel make are you using, I'm trying to find a double track one that's fairly narrow with not much height to it as the trains will go under a second tier,

[Jaggzuk]

Ps what tunnel make are you using, I'm trying to find a double track one that's fairly narrow with not much height to it as the trains will go under a second tier,

 

Our old layout used a Metcalfe kit stone tunnel portal http://www.metcalfemodels.com/00-double-track-tunnel-entrances, which has the bore dimension of 4.5" wide and a max height of 4".  As a kit it is fine, quick to build and customisable.  You could very easily reduce the overall height.  As I no longer needed it, I have now converted the two bores it into my rail over road arch bridge.

 

I would also recommend the Scalesenes tunnel http://scalescenes.com/product/r014-tunnel-portal/ as you get a choice of 7 brick and stone renders and infinite print runs as you buy the PDF files.  These are a  bit more time consuming as you have to glue all the printed papers to card, but the overall printed effect is very good and much more realistic.  Again you can modify to change the height to suit your upper boards.

[ess1uk]

You have done well in such short time

Looking good

[Jaggzuk]

A bit of an update is due I think.  

 

Have now finished all the track land form and have glued the card underlay and cut all the rubberised cork track underlay.  Next task is to fix the cork and then track laying can commence, which will be great.  The very temporary single loop track we have is a bit limiting 

 

Had some help today in painting the plasterwork green, using Woodland Scenics Earth Colours; Green Undercoat pigment,  The brown areas was just kids poster paint.  Makes such a difference a bit of colour!

 

I have now added a ditch to the side of the lower goods yard (the white channel in the green).  This was never on the plan, but sort of just happen as I realised I had no areas on the layout to practice creating water.  So an unforgotten industrial/urban ditch should be challenging enough.  It will run between culverts at each end.  It will I hope create a bit of a scenic break between the goods yard and the loop line.

 

Still making retaining walls from Metcalfe kits, a bit time consuming...

 

I am quite pleased now things have being give a coat of colour even though it is just undercoat, but it has really helped to create the feel of where the build is going.

 

One thing I noticed today, whilst playing trains and taking some photos, is that I am starting to find those places where if one gets down nice and low, there is a real pleasure in just watching trains go past and getting immersed in to the landscape.

 

Sorry the photos are not wonderful, I was limited to just the flash on the camera rather than natural daylight.

 

Helping hands with the painting

 

 

General view from country end over Foxhill Farm

 

 

General view from urban end which will be a small town called Foxwood

 

 

View over lower goods yard

 

 

A Class 20 on empties return working, ok so I forgot to remove all the coal loads!

 

 

View along the lower Junction, which will be called Pendip East Junction.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jaggzuk

[The Bigbee Line]

Looks like your all having fun.  That's what it's all about.

 

Probably a lesson for a few others.

 

Keep up the excellent work.

 

Can't wait for the next instalment.

[Chris64B]

Hi there,

 

Really enjoying the thread!

 

I'm doing something similar for my little ones (and me!) but from a different starting point as I'm restoring my old 8x4 layout my Dad and I built when I was little! (Link in my sig below)  I'm sure your kids will get a lot out of it.

 

It looks like you making great progress and looking forward to more updates.

 

Cheers, Chris