Modernisation Plan Diesels

[uax6]

The Metro-Vicks used their's on the Condor run, Ian A used them when he wrote his peice for the Railway Mag... Indeed the preserved Metro-Vic is probably the only deisel to still have them...

 

Andy G

[Clive Mortimore]

Re early diesels is there much evidence of the corridor front doors being used on any of the Type 2 or 3 diesels?

Hi Mow

 

There is when one looks.

 

[russ p]

I never heard of them being used in the North east. I would put money on most of them never being used especially on the type 4s 40s, D600s,44s and 45s.

[keefer]

Seen a few photos, not many though!

IIRC class 27s before they went to Scotland, 21s at Glasgow Queen St and 40s on the WCML somewhere (that one is stated as possibly being a Royal Train). Possibly also 22s, 25s and 31s.

All in the (early) 60s.

Edit: the LMS Twins, in particular a BTF clip available on YouTube showing the rear connector being joined to the adjacent coach. Also the first 2 SR diesels on the WCML - the 3rd one was 2000HP so worked alone

[russ p]

I'm not sure if the LMS ones were compatible with the later ones,the SR ones weren't as they were full height but narrow

[Clive Mortimore]

Seen a few photos, not many though!

IIRC class 27s before they went to Scotland, 21s at Glasgow Queen St and 40s on the WCML somewhere (that one is stated as possibly being a Royal Train). Possibly also 22s, 25s and 31s.

All in the (early) 60s.

Edit: the LMS Twins, in particular a BTF clip available on YouTube showing the rear connector being joined to the adjacent coach. Also the first 2 SR diesels on the WCML - the 3rd one was 2000HP so worked alone

 

I'm not sure if the LMS ones were compatible with the later ones,the SR ones weren't as they were full height but narrow

All the photos I have seen of the gangways in use have been between locos of the same class.

 

Photos I can recall seeing are of Class 21s, Class 24s, Class 25s, Class 26s, Class 27s, Class 28s, Class 30s, Class 40s (on Royal Train duties) and LMS twins. To date I have not seen any photos of Classes 22, 23, 37, 44 or 45. Or the D600 Warships and the SR 1Co-Co1s.

 

They were a waste of money and did cause some design problems considering their limited use. I recall reading that they were to permit the "Fireman" to attend the train steam heating generator as it was the the custom for the loco next to the train to heat it in the days of steam. Then some bright spark suggested that the boiler in the lead loco would do the job as badly, thus alleviating the Fireman of having to go into the rear loco. He still had to play with a boiler but the one on the loco he was in. All the crew had to do was ensure the valves were set on the rear loco to allow the steam to flow along its pipework to the train not up into the boiler. 

[russ p]

I think I've seen pictures of the SR loco's. They were retro fitted with them when they worked on the LMR.

With the comment about the LMS loco's having them coupled to the coach gangway, I wonder if the ones fitted to the SR ones were designed to do the same

[jonny777]

All the photos I have seen of the gangways in use have been between locos of the same class.

 

Photos I can recall seeing are of Class 21s, Class 24s, Class 25s, Class 26s, Class 27s, Class 28s, Class 30s, Class 40s (on Royal Train duties) and LMS twins. To date I have not seen any photos of Classes 22, 23, 37, 44 or 45. Or the D600 Warships and the SR 1Co-Co1s.

 

 

 

I think this photo may add another class to your seen list, Clive.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/817foxhound/6938783452/in/photolist-bza5zs-ef3guC-eR9mKd-tknP7n-a8EzWB-iXKdqd-iZvuqL-7gJKys-kHRcQv-iXHYcX-oYXeuy-7xTYuj-aDxHz8-hazAUh-tzzkqQ-8tNi6S-BWu39S-9uEkDy-nWJzpK-tzn77u-8svPsD-bvu4mz-iZnSqV-iZv21N-iZdxvE-iXH6oJ-iXKk95-iXHzgz-iXJPhi-bJ2JK2-iXHV9k-iZ9ANi-iZr2HA-iZvZzE-iZpXGG-iZaWor-iZmx7s-iZasen-iZsPmX-iZeTJy-iZoCaP-iZqUzi-iZrDpe-iXFkq3-iXKBvJ-iXGVdw-iXHn86-iXMR4G-iXHNg2-iXGZFu

[paulbb]

Whats also curious is how few of the key Modernisation Plan prototypes survived- whatever happened to D1, D800, D1000, D5700 (tho 5705 survived) D5000, D6100, D6300 - and lets not forget E26000 too (tho not an MP loco really).

[russ p]

The sad truth is no one was interested, and a lack of both money and experience. It was with a few exceptions only when the westerns were withdrawn that diesel preservation started even then the last baby deltic was cut up at the same time. I believe the situation in the US is even worse with large numbers of 40s and 50s big diesel models being extinct.

Don't be put off by certain numbers missing,you mentioned D1. We have both D4 and D8 of the same class. When buying a loco its far better to buy the example in the best condition rather than a specific number

[Reorte]

The sad truth is no one was interested, and a lack of both money and experience. It was with a few exceptions only when the westerns were withdrawn that diesel preservation started even then the last baby deltic was cut up at the same time. I believe the situation in the US is even worse with large numbers of 40s and 50s big diesel models being extinct.

I remember seeing rows of derelict diesels awaiting cutting up when I was a child, and reasoning that since people wanted to keep steam why didn't anyone want those. Then I changed to "so what". Then later I changed again to "pity so many got scrapped." But if at some point in the future I ever say the same about Pendolinos and Voyagers and 185s and so on after they've been cut up then please shoot me! Need to keep a Pacer or two though, just for a laugh.

[cheesysmith]

No, we need to preserve a pacer, and keep it running so in another 20 years time we don't have somebody come along and say "how about this for a cheap train idea, bus bits on a twin axle chassis". That way we will have a example to show them and go hell no.

[russ p]

I can't think that many of todays trains,certainly EMUs will get preserved. There are very few BR era EMUs preserved in an operable condition. Many of these are capable of being used as hauled stock where todays stock isn't, with bar couplers between vehicles. Maybe the odd driving vehicles will be saved by museums but personally I can't see many.

[brack]

No, we need to preserve a pacer, and keep it running so in another 20 years time we don't have somebody come along and say "how about this for a cheap train idea, bus bits on a twin axle chassis". That way we will have a example to show them and go hell no.

No, I vote we send the last one to North Korea. We sent them to Iran as part of our economic sanctions* and travelling on them brought them to the negotiating table in a dozen years.

 

*and to show exactly how decadent the west is.

[Edwin_m]

No, we need to preserve a pacer, and keep it running so in another 20 years time we don't have somebody come along and say "how about this for a cheap train idea, bus bits on a twin axle chassis". That way we will have a example to show them and go hell no.

Unfortunately that didn't work with the preserved railbuses from the 1960s.  Who was it who said that history repeats itself once the people who remember the previous time have retired? 

[Andy Kirkham]

Whats also curious is how few of the key Modernisation Plan prototypes survived- whatever happened to D1, D800, D1000, D5700 (tho 5705 survived) D5000, D6100, D6300 - and lets not forget E26000 too (tho not an MP loco really).

 At the time of the earlier diesel withdrawals (say 1968-1970) most enthusiasts who would have been old enough and wealthy enough so buy a loco would have been steam lovers. From their perspective these diesels had not only displaced their beloved steam locos  but, were already being scrapped having been built just the day before yesterday, so they were not only detestable but useless.

 

When the Warships finally disappeared in 1972, nobody seemed to care. There was no "Farewell to the Warships" special. I think the Hymeks were probably the first diesels that got a proper send-off. Presumably by then the spotters who had grown up with them and who didn't have many memories of steam were coming of age.

[Urthra]

There were so many different types that to preserve one of each.... I mean, would you preserve one, of each kind of car built in any given decade?

 

(No, not fully serious!)

[The Stationmaster]

Unfortunately that didn't work with the preserved railbuses from the 1960s.  Who was it who said that history repeats itself once the people who remember the previous time have retired? 

Hmm,  in my experience the 14X series railbuses represent a pretty serious step backwards in passenger comfort compared with the Modernisation Plan railbuses (although I only travelled on WR ones).  Part of the reason of course is that the second generation units were/are, perforce, used on duties totally unsuited to the rather outdated concept of a 4 wheeled passenger carrying rail vehicle.  But alas the 14X series were what economics and govt stinginess delivered to the poor unfortunate passengers and are obviously a slight improvement on no trains at all - but I still can't stand the cheap and nasty things.

[rockershovel]

Have to admit that my recollections of diesel traction were permanently soured by a period of commuting on ECML in the 80s. Add in that many, possibly most diesel types were less than wholly successful; that they took the stage for a relatively brief period at a time of national decline and disillusionment, and when many people were moving away from rail travel altogether; and that they were superseded by a type of main-line traction (electrification) which was widely recognised as technically superior, long before the first diesels were ever built, I'd say that the general disinterest in diesel preservation is entirely understandable.

[Reorte]

...I'd say that the general disinterest in diesel preservation is entirely understandable.

There seems to be even less interest in electric preservation, although no doubt some of that's down to the difficulty of finding anything to do with it other than as a stationary museum exhibit.

[rockershovel]

There seems to be even less interest in electric preservation, although no doubt some of that's down to the difficulty of finding anything to do with it other than as a stationary museum exhibit.

Well, quite. I wouldn't cross the road to see a preserved EMU. My experience of EMUs has been crowded, expensive, rattly boxes on wheels, painted in a constantly-changing parade of liveries which look like soft drink cans, in the service of a revolving door of franchises whose main customer interface is a near-incomprehensible on-line ticketing system.

 

Nostalgia, it ain't.

[Zomboid]

We ask have our own versions of nostalgia. For me, I remember sectorisation, and in particular red lamp posts and NSE livery on 4VEPs and the like, and the excitement of seeing a duff with air conditioned mk2s on a Cross Country... That's where my nostalgia lies.

 

But I can also understand why that isn't necessarily a popular view. EMUs aren't the most exciting things in the world...

[lmsforever]

I hope that all the Pacers go straight to the scrappers as to preserving early units thank god they didn't most did not work but people look back with rose tinted specs why would they find the products of Austin Morris so good,I drove some of them and could not wait to get a Ford.

[Reorte]

I hope that all the Pacers go straight to the scrappers as to preserving early units thank god they didn't most did not work but people look back with rose tinted specs why would they find the products of Austin Morris so good,I drove some of them and could not wait to get a Ford.

If you really think that people are looking back at things with rose tinted specs then keep a few around, so when they get on one in 30 years' time they'll remember what they were really like.

[Bert Cheese]

Whats also curious is how few of the key Modernisation Plan prototypes survived- whatever happened to D1, D800, D1000, D5700 (tho 5705 survived) D5000, D6100, D6300 - and lets not forget E26000 too (tho not an MP loco really).

D1000 was apparently due for the NRM but suffered cosmetic accident damage not worth repairing and D1023 eventually took its place..more details are available in various Adrian Curtis books.

D5000 was rejected by the NRM in favour of D5500 as I understand.

 

We are indeed lucky to have 2 Warships with us today...D821 being a consolation prize after the accidental cutting of D6319, and D832 being revived from a complete wreck after being used as a dead load at Derby for several years.