DCC Chips in Really Old Locos

[JST]

Hi,

Only my second post a a newbie getting back into the hobby so rate my DCC knowledge as nil! I am fairly handy with a soldering iron and have taken the decision to go totally DCC with my new layout (currently in the planning stage).

 

The snag is most of my locos ( I have about 40) are over 30 years old and a mix of Hornby, Bachmann, Wills Finecast etc.etc. One of my Locos is at least 60 years old being a Hornby 0-6-2 Tank which I had second hand when I was 4 years old in 1953. As a model it is a non entity but it has sentimental value. I also have a number of old Hornby locos (including my much loved Castle) which were originally Hornby 3 Rail subsequently converted to 2 Rail. My mother used to work for Roland Hornby (Frank's lad) and Roland gave these locos to me personally after he had been on a factory visit - hence a lot of the sentimental value as opposed to modelling accuracy.

 

The question is, am I going to be able to convert these locos to DCC given their age and history or are they doomed to sit in a display cabinet for ever? Any views much appreciated.

 

John

[10000]

You will get different advice on this. Some saying not worth it, they'll run no better. Others saying yes they can be done.

 

In my experience I have found that some old models have run better on DC after fitting a decoder, as well as running OK on DCC. Its a case of try it.

 

With old models I would suggest you do a stall current test on each one so that you can get a decoder that handles the required amps.  Before fitting the decoder ensure the brushes are fully isolated as a lot of older models used live chassis's.  Refer to the decoder fitting section and you may find some the same that have been done.

 

Old Hornby with portescap motors can be a problem because of the 'live' tube that the brush goes into, but I have come across a couple that where converted.

 

You may end up leaving some on the display shelf but no harm in trying.

 

Pick one , check the section on fitting, if you find nothing post about it with photos of the motor and people will the be able to advise about the best way of doing it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have done successful  'for sentiment' DCC conversions of old locos, couple of my own, some for friends. I feel one needs to be realistic about what is possible: you need to start from a mechanically sound and reliable loco, with a motor which starts every time there is current on the rails. If it's a dog on DC, don't even consider it. With any drive that has a live chassis block with integrated motor, like the vertical Hornby-Dublo type, are you prepared to drill out the live to chassis brush location and install an insulating bush to fully isolate the brush from the chassis block? Irreversible modification and all that...

 

For the old loco you choose to convert as a trial run, budget for a high grade decoder with plenty of adjustments and ample continuous current capability compared to the measured stall current at 12V DC as suggested by '10000' above. (I'd think of a Zimo rated for 1.5A continuous or better.)

 

Do you have any recent model productions? There's a large choice in good current model productions, and some can be got at reasonable prices. Two which would complement an N2. Hornby's J50, Heljan's Baby Deltic. Put a good but modestly priced decoder like the Lenz Standard in these, and see the running quality available: that's a benchmark against which to assess the performance of an older loco with the necessary expensive decoder to manage a high current draw motor.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Hi,

Only my second post a a newbie getting back into the hobby so rate my DCC knowledge as nil! I am fairly handy with a soldering iron and have taken the decision to go totally DCC with my new layout (currently in the planning stage).

 

The snag is most of my locos ( I have about 40) are over 30 years old and a mix of Hornby, Bachmann, Wills Finecast etc.etc. One of my Locos is at least 60 years old being a Hornby 0-6-2 Tank which I had second hand when I was 4 years old in 1953. As a model it is a non entity but it has sentimental value. I also have a number of old Hornby locos (including my much loved Castle) which were originally Hornby 3 Rail subsequently converted to 2 Rail. My mother used to work for Roland Hornby (Frank's lad) and Roland gave these locos to me personally after he had been on a factory visit - hence a lot of the sentimental value as opposed to modelling accuracy.

 

The question is, am I going to be able to convert these locos to DCC given their age and history or are they doomed to sit in a display cabinet for ever? Any views much appreciated.

 

John

 

To be frank the railway modelling industry has come a long way from the models you have. Every now and again, a complete change of technology will rejuvenate a stagnant market and DCC plus the China manufacturing has done that for model railways.

 

Sentimentality is better served by a visible display cabinet than actually running and handling these old models.

 

Very often it is recommended that old models such as these are disposed of to collectors as if they are rare, in exceptional condition and originally boxed, they may be worth enough to pay for new DCC ready or even fitted stock.

 

One of the basic precepts of us modellers is that we tend to accumulate locomotives and rolling stock that in all conscience we will never have enough time or layout space to actually run anyway.

 

Disposal appears NOT to be a viable proposition in your case but, in any event, converting old stock will destroy any collectable value and gain very little in running terms plus cost money which has effectively been thrown away.

 

You risk destroying the sentimentality to boot. I doubt that the Hornby family would recommend what you have in mind.

[JST]

Hmm... a lot to think about. Thank you for your valued input. I fear I will be making a display cabinet! I have the original boxes for most of the locos and the point about destroying value is taken.

[rockershovel]

FWIW, I have an old, cast-body Hornby 2-6-4T which is the last remaining item from my late father's layout, found in a box while clearing my mother's effects twentyfive years after his death. It appears to have been converted from 3-rail, although I wouldn't be certain. It has minimal collectors value but I wouldn't cut it about for anything...

 

If you have models with a known provenance, given you by the Hornby family, in their original boxes I most certainly wouldn't recommend modifying them.

[10000]

Do want to save them for a rainey day or do you want to get pleasure from them?  Yes some may have potential value (provenance will need proof your word is not enough) , but to whom you or your family who get them when you are gone.  All comes down to the you.

 

Personelly I don't give a monkey's about perceived value of things. They were either gifts or things I bought to get pleasure from them, so selling is not even considered. An example is some SACD's which are now supposedl'y worth 5 times more than I paid for them, but they still get played rather than selling them or tucking them away for family to get when I'm gone.

[JST]

I take your point. I have no interest in the financial value - the memories are worth more. It would just have been nice to see them trundling around the layout occasionally. However, I will concentrate on the locos that may be convertable. To this end I will dig out my multitester  and rig up a test bed to see what readings I can elicit on the stall test.

 

Cheers

 

John

[rockershovel]

If you just to wish to see them run occasionally, would it be feasible to wire up a section of track with DC? The test track at my club has a switchable DC/DCC power supply, just throw the switch. Have a dedicated running session occasionally.

[SRman]

A lot of sensible suggestions and sound advice in the above posts.

I hope I'm not muddying the waters with a couple of extra ideas, here.

If you really must convert one of the old locomotives, fitting one of the available replacement neo-magnets can dramatically reduce the power consumption, thus making the loco more suitable for conversion to DCC. However, if it ran like a dog before, this may not improve things much.

Another possibility, which adds electrical complication, is allow your layout to be switched to DC power for running sessions with the old locomotives 'as is'. This means you will need isolating sections in your tracks, and also that you ensure the two power supplies (DC and DCC) can never accidentally meet. 

The latter has been my solution, where I have a 4 pole multi-position switch that allows the whole double track lower level to be powered on DCC or fed to the two tracks through an old H & M Duette controller.

I have experimentally converted a couple of old Triang and Dublo locomotives and units to DCC, but for the most part I would say it was not worth the effort, although my old, double-motored (pre-ringfield) Triang Hymek was an outright success using a TCS T1 decoder. 

I used a neo-magnet in a Dublo/Wrenn R1 0-6-0 tank and successfully chipped that, but my plans for a Dublo SR EMU were put on hold when the neo-magnet fitting proved to cause undesirable side-effects: the magnet in the power bogie attracts the tinplate sides of the motor coach with almost comical effects on its running!

[rockershovel]

The solution at the club test track, is to have a YES/NO wiring design; there is a switch which selects DC or DCC so that one, or the other is completely isolated. There are isolated sections of track as part of the DC function, and these are simply all turned ON for DCC operation, or ON and OFF as required to allow a second loco to stand by in the passing loop when using DC.

 

It is not possible to have any combination of DC and DCC in simultaneous operation. Start up sequence is (1) turn on mains supply (2) select DC or DCC (3) check direction of points (4) turn isolating sections on or off as required (5) operate controller.

[JST]

I have now carried out an "audit" of what seems to be worth converting and what will stay in the display case. The most disappointing result was this one: -

 

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Not an old Hornby but an old Wren "Dorchester". It has been in it's original box for the last 30 years and as far as I can see the only way of converting it would be to drill out the motor block for the "live chassis" brush and fit an insulator. A lot of work and it would change the loco for ever so I am minded to sell it and buy a DCC ready West Country or Merchant Navy. I see a few Wren Dorchesters  listed on eBay for silly money (up to £265) but does anyone have any idea what a sensible price would be for it?

 

Thanks

 

John

[JST]

Just to let you know that I could not bring myself to sell Dorchester and have discovered that a firm called "Scalespeed" do a conversion (including an armature rewind and re-magnetisation). They will also do my old Hornby locos.

[AMJ]

The easiest old locos to covert are any with the X03 type of motor as these tend to have a live feed through the U shaped spring to one brush the other has insulation on it.  Insulate the live one, put red and black to the track and orange and grey to the brushes.  Far easier than quite a few modern locos.

[FrankS]

The easiest old locos to covert are any with the X03 type of motor as these tend to have a live feed through the U shaped spring to one brush the other has insulation on it.  Insulate the live one, put red and black to the track and orange and grey to the brushes.  Far easier than quite a few modern locos.

I was interested to read this - it appears to confirm what I figured to be the case: that to isolate a motor, it's only the armature/commutator/ brushes that  need to be isolated as they have no electrical connection with the magnet/pole pieces etc, which sounds simple on those old Triang motors. (My first post here, btw, having recently become interested in model railways after 50 odd yeas away - things have changed a bit, haven't they!)

[metroman]

has anyone done any dcc conversions on Roco Locos? I have some Roco(all DB) locos some of which are over 30 years old, the youngest one is 25 years old. They are still run very well, I was thinking of converting them, I have fitted a couple of decoders(hard wired), so that is not a problem, just cannot decide if it is worth it or not.

[Alan Kettlewell]

has anyone done any dcc conversions on Roco Locos? I have some Roco(all DB) locos some of which are over 30 years old, the youngest one is 25 years old. They are still run very well, I was thinking of converting them, I have fitted a couple of decoders(hard wired), so that is not a problem, just cannot decide if it is worth it or not.

 

I've recently converted an old Roco BR01 2-6-4.  It's the tender drive model with a massive weight in the tender.  

 

The only space available for the chip was above the motor in the tender in the space where the imitation coal is.  Wiring up was quite straight forward but I needed to cut some bits out of the metal weight to allow the decoder wires to pass through to the top, above the weight.  I then cut away and removed the plastic coal to make room for the chip.  I positioned the chip in the coal space and, following testing, boxed over the top of the chip with a removable piece of shaped thin card and glued some real coal on to the card - so I have a removable coal load which allows access to the chip.  This made the coal load about 4mm higher but it looks alright.

 

The loco runs fine and smooth and overall I found it was worth doing - giving some new life to this fine old model.

 

PS - I tried to chip a similar old BR01 from Fleishmann - a different story altogether.  Some of these are fitted with a grounded motor backplate so you can't isolate one of the bushes.  The only way to chip them is to buy an isolated back plate, sold by Fleischmann, or drill out the backplate bush housing and isolate it yourself.  At this point I gave up and it's now back in its box waiting for me to list it on eBay!

 

Cheers ... Alan 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Alan Kettlewell

[petertg]

I have chipped three old locomotives. One was a Wrenn City class purchased way back in 1975. It was mainly in its box until 2007 because I did not have a permanent layout. I then started building one, originally DC and got the loco out of its box and had the misfortune to have it fall to the floor twice, which reduced its value. I then went DCC. I drilled out the uninsulated brush holder and replaced it, had the armature rewound and fitted a neo magnet, but it wasn't until I purchased a Zimo MX632 decoder that I got it to work. It has suffered other accidents and it is something of a miracle that it runs, but it does.

The other two are Lima H0 locomotives, one purchased at least over 45 years ago, and the other of indeterminate age, because it was given to me by a friend, but it probably dates from the early 80's. Again, it wasn't until I installed the MX632 decoders that I got them to work. I wanted to update these locomotives, because I have a lot of old Lima rolling stock, and, as a pensioner, I cannot spare the cash to lash out buying new stock. Hope this helps you.

[Vecchio]

I have converted plenty of old locos including split frame types. Sometimes it is necessary to insulate parts or cut or mill out the weights. As I have fun doing that it is worth it. And all of them have improved their running characteristics. Last one was a Bachmann pannier tank with a split frame from 2007. Runs lovely with a zimo mx600. Next one on the list is an old Lima class 37. Plenty of space inside. Will put a lot of capacitors into this one.Cab ends will need some al-foil treatment as the material lets the light shine through and I like to activate the headlights.

[Vecchio]

Which decoder will you be using? I understand that the Zimo 600 doesn't have an easy way of adding stay alive like the higher end versions do. A couple of Lima 117 DMUs are in my "do do" list.

 

Rather than tinfoil I paint the outside of the LEDs black, and use blacktac to both hold the LED in place and stop light leakage.

 

On the MX 600 you need to solder the ground connection between 2 diodes - rather small stuff...

 

Before starting that I will measure the stall current on DC for this old loco - just to be sure not to overload the MX600.

In any case I have an old MX64 which came out of a loco (Klein Modellbahn) which died the Mazak death. The MX64 has 1A motor current while the MX 600 has 0.8A motor current. Also on the MX64 it isn't so easy to add a capacitor as the connection to ground is on a small pad on the opposite side of the decoder.

 

 

Paint leds black - I would like to use the original lenses and glue smd leds on the end of the lenses. And for the aluminium foil I found a self adhesive tape, very thin, normally used to glue insulation boards together.

 

Will make a small thread in the forum when I do this, but it will not be too soon. This weekend is the MKMRS show in Stantonbury, Milton Keynes where I will take part - let's make a bit of advertisement:

2017 EXHIBITION

SATURDAY 11th FEBRUARY 2017, 10.00am – 4.30pm

Stantonbury Leisure Centre, Stantonbury, Milton Keynes. MK14 6BN

[Sir TophamHatt]

It sort of worries me when I see threads like this  :/

 

I thought to convert a DC loco you simply had to wire in a socket and/or decoder and away you go.  But I worry about stall rates and what I have to test.  Ordered a bunch of Lenz Standard v2's, but will probably order some Zimos as they too seem to be popular (I have about 15 locos to chip).

 

Is there a bit more of a guide on stall rates and stay alive things?

[Vecchio]

The smaller the chip is the lower the motor current will be. I do the stall test just to be sure the current of a stalled loco (loco not lock. The spell checker in the phone didn't like loco....)  at for instance running against a bumper is more than the max current rating of the decoder. This will guarantee it will not go up in smoke should the loco be blocked somewhere and I do not notice it immediately.
Stay alive is another story. Some people like it, but it is not a must. You need to find space for the capacitors which is normally the main problem.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Vecchio

[NoelG]

Like you JST I have a lot of old steam model locos, 30% are Hornby Dublo dating from early 60s, and the rest Hornby and Bachmann dating from 1980s and some early 90s.  After trails and tests I have come to the conclusion that it is not worth converting the old Hornby Dublo, nor many of the old Hornby and Bachmann.  The split chassis Bachmann steam locos have been a particular nightmare, most needing to be run in again after I had to temporarily separate the chassis halves to electrically isolate the motors.  It is tricky to get the chassis halves back in perfect alignment and despite a few successes, some never mechanically ran as freely again.  

 

I have decided to retire the old specials to display cases, but occasionally run them on DC because our layout was originally built for DC with block sections, so I can flick a few switches and convert it back to DC again.  When on DCC mode we just turn every block and isolation section on.

Edited February 9, 2017 by NoelG

[Vecchio]

In the meantime I have chipped the old Lima class 37 - it was easy as there is loads of space. I didn't do the lights yet and I didn't take any pictures.

I had some test runs on an analogue circuit - especially in the transition between curved and straight track the engine had some contact problems. The current drawn was minimal - somewhere in the 3 to 400mA region. I added extra pick-ups to both bogies. I couldn't test it after that as my test track is currently at my friends house. Because of the low current I used a MX600. I added 4500uF stay alive. The ground connection on the chip is a bit tricky, but manageable.

 

With 4500uF a charging limiter (50Ohm resistor) is necessary otherwise the controller may see a short circuit because of the charging current. This resistor has to be bridged by a diode so the full current is available for the motor when needed. 

 

A test run on my layout showed good behavior  - the slow speed performance is not so good - but this is coming from the pancake motor. I will try to play a bit with CV9 and CV56 to see if there is any improvement.

 

What I can say is that the loco doesn't stall, but the slow speed behavior is not impressive.

 

But if anybody wants to keep his old locos running - this is the way to do it. A few pictures will follow soon.

[Vecchio]

Here we are with some more details. First to the victim of the surgery - my old Lima 37506. Actually not that old, I purchased it approximately 15 years ago.

 

DSC04310

 

As mentioned before I use a Zimo MX600 for this loco. this decoder is rather slim, and it even fits into the space next to the weight. On the right hand side you see 3 capacitors of 1500uF each - to help the loco over these silly points....

The wires for lights and functions I provisionally stuck to the weight by using a blue tack copy. I will need all of them later.

 

DSC04305

 

Unfortunately not really in focus - the connection of the ground conductor for the stay alive capacitors.

 

DSC04304

 

And now some preparation for the lights. I will put yellow leds into the 2 headcode positions and will dim them down. In the middle I put a 3mm white led - as the actual headlight and on the indicator lights I opened only the right one on both sides - here I will put a red 1.8mm led behind. As you can see I have covered the inside of the cab with self adhesive aluminium foil, works very well and is absolutely light proof. By the way if somebody is interested - you find this tape at B&Q.

 

DSC04307

 

And now a view from the front. I removed the plastic lenses and opened the holes up to 1.8mm. The leds themselves will form the lenses.

 

DSC04309

 

That's it for today, now I need to find some white 3mm leds before I can proceed.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Vecchio