“WASHBOURNE”

[Argos]

Thanks Northroader,

 

The moral of the story is don't hit "post" as the train you are on enters a tunnel, it does odd things to the mobile signal.

 

Holidays, visiting relatives and the dreaded decorating has kept me away from the workbench for a bit.

 

I'll be back at it soon!

[Argos]

When ever to take a step you are making choices. The first model or kit bought, the first sketched plan, the first baseboard built all reduce the the options of where to go next ( apart from scrapping what you have done. ) even in the first stage of gestation when you think I could model that,  is making a choice. Indeed one of the attractions of armchair modelling is the freedom to think and mentally build all sorts of layouts. 

 

I dont know why there are so many who lack interest in operation. Many prefer building something to running trains, others opt for a halfway house of watching trains run, less common are those who enjoy making up and dividing trains usually to a schedule. That aspect to me is one of the most enjoyable bits especially if operating in the company of others. If you just have no interest fair enough but I do wonder how many do not appreciate the possibilities. 

 

 

Don

 

It does strike me as odd that on one of the biggest (the biggest?) model railway forums here at RMWeb we don't have a section dedicated to operations.

 

Even topics about operations are limited in number.

[Nearholmer]

“Is V.B. the best example?”

 

Possibly not, but I’m notoriously bad at keeping-up with ‘celebs’, so I couldn’t think of another example.

[Northroader]

I would suggest what’s going on tomorrow as a good example, but don’t really want to go there...

[Nearholmer]

I read and/or listen to the news on BBC every day, but I had to ferret-around to find out what you meant ..... I think I must have a subconscious filterer-outer of 'celeb' related material!

[Lacathedrale]

It does strike me as odd that on one of the biggest (the biggest?) model railway forums here at RMWeb we don't have a section dedicated to operations.

 

Even topics about operations are limited in number.

 

I think it's related to what we have discussed already - it's easiest to make the comparison with Americans who largely eschew anything approaching the finescale-style and go for large cellar empires with multiple operators and dispatchers.

 

We had (have) less space than our American cohobbyists and the attendant focus on accuracy and detail in a more constrained area means that 'real' railway operation becomes increasingly more difficult.

 

Desiring accuracy we look for the ground up and see that track needs to be hand laid (which adds inertia to any collection of rolling stock and layout construction).

It doesn't help that passenger traffic is supreme in the UK compared to the US focus on freight - even today there are many rail-served industries that take one or two boxcars (see Lance Mindheim's CSX Miami layout for an example) which means anything set in the last 60 years or so is going to neccesarily be rather mundane,

Absolute block signalling in the UK versus waybill/dispatch control in the US means there's less for a 'crew' to do on an UK layout.

i'm STILL not sure how UK freight worked in any era despite an interest - whereas in the US there are systems designed specifically to simulate it.

 

I think a UK layout based on American operational practise would be wonderful - but it would have to be a perfect storm of era, prototype and location to facilitate it, with a group of likeminded individuals who didn't mind travelling to 'just' be a station clerk or signalman - I can only imagine how hard it was for people like Tony Koester to get 15 people over to his place to drive coal trains about, let alone when the idea of it is almost anathema to the typical railway modeller/exhibitor/punter.

 

Thoughts?

[Nearholmer]

There are a few books around that attempt to deal with operation for British-based layouts (Freezer; Essery; Jenkinson; a recent one that I don’t know etc), but IMHO they don’t explain things particularly brilliantly, and discussions on RMWeb seem to quickly get mired in minutiae and particulars, losing the overall plot.

 

What it probably needs is a regular column in one of the mags, but, even if someone could be found to write it in an accessible style, i don’t think editors these days like that sort of thing ....... I think there is a problem with stuff that doesn’t work for the casual reader who might arrive in ‘episode six of twelve’.m

 

PS: you’re not into telecoms are you? I ask, because ordinary goods traffic flows operated in a way that isn’t completely dissimilar from IP, with the marshalling yards acting a bit like ‘routers’ with very very inflexible routing-tables loaded.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Donw]

Richard Chown Castle Rackrent had no difficulties in attracting operators.I used to regularly help operate a friends layout based in the Cotswold one chap used come down from Manchester for the afternoon. He had his own operations based layout at home. There are people keen to operate butit probably takes a bit of time to gather a team.

 

Anyway perhaps we are taking advantage of Northroader's thread with this discussion.

 

Don

[Regularity]

I think a UK layout based on American operational practise would be wonderful - but it would have to be a perfect storm of era, prototype and location to facilitate it, with a group of likeminded individuals who didn't mind travelling to 'just' be a station clerk or signalman - I can only imagine how hard it was for people like Tony Koester to get 15 people over to his place to drive coal trains about, let alone when the idea of it is almost anathema to the typical railway modeller/exhibitor/punter.

 

Thoughts?

Indeed it is wonderful.

http://www.s-scale.org.uk/gallery5.htm

http://www.s-scale.org.uk/gallery25.htm

 

It is generally operated single handed, and in its original format was one level, junction-wayside station-terminus in a 16’ x 8’ space (standard U.K. garage size!) used cards and waybills, but is otherwise very much a British take on an American approach.

 

For the more “system” oriented layout, there was Norman Eagles’ Sherwood section (0 gauge and clockwork to boot!) and also Buckingham, of course.

[Northroader]

Richard Chown Castle Rackrent had no difficulties in attracting operators.I used to regularly help operate a friends layout based in the Cotswold one chap used come down from Manchester for the afternoon. He had his own operations based layout at home. There are people keen to operate butit probably takes a bit of time to gather a team.

 

Anyway perhaps we are taking advantage of Northroader's thread with this discussion.

 

Don

Be my guests, it’s a good discussion you’ve got going. If you’ve just got a microscale, folks can divide up the siding in pitches and throw a dice/ roll a card to determine the shunting, which stops rigor Mortis setting in. With mine, a ten year old kid would look at it and know what could be done (and probably say “boring”) but I’m happy with it. Going up from there you can either copy a prototype layout, which will present an operating pattern to go with it, or come up with your own version. How many times on this web do you see someone say “Hey, this is my new plan,” and straightaway there’s a flow of comments with helpful ideas on what’s wrong with and how it can be improved for operation. With most show layouts there isn’t much operating as such, it’s just keeping a steady flow of traffic running through. After that you get the really interesting stuff, where a system has got large enough to have several stations, and to get the best out of it you need a team. Borchester sounded a bit scary, as the boss demanded very precise operation, and if you’re into timetables and signalling and block codes, would you find it a relaxing hobby? Probably American type operation where a train crew are given switching lists and train movements are ordered by a despatcher would be more laid back? None of its rocket science, just things you absorb as you go on, and it’s quite fragmentary, so having an operations thread would be difficult, I think.

Anyhow, the bride and groom...

Edited October 12, 2018 by Northroader

[Nearholmer]

Operation ...... just noticed that there's quite a good article about constructing a Working Timetable in Railway Modeller this month (Nov 2018). I particularly like the fact that the author started with an analysis of what his fictional town might need in terms of passenger service and goods traffic, based on research of typical towns in the area in 1935. A proper bottom-up approach, as ducks are apt to say.

[Northroader]

By the way, if you’re into operation, are you aware of the AFK? Interesting line which is slowly growing, and good in the way things are gaining a finish over time. He’s just done a 40 page operating manual, and helpfully some of the phrases stick to the local language, I think. This line is definitely something else.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128759-afk-altonian-complementary-railways/page-2#ipboard_body

Edited October 13, 2018 by Northroader

[Annie]

I know I do virtual railway modelling which might be a step too far for many enthusiasts, but on Middlevales I'm operating an ex-LNWR secondary line (warning: non pre-group content) that's a good 60 or so scale miles long and one of my particular joys is trip workings and local pick up goods workings with all the necessary attendant shunting.  I keep telling myself I should make up some cards for managing wagon loads & etc since the numbers and types of goods wagons on the layout is fairly well fixed and doesn't change, but overall i seem to do Ok keeping it all in my head.  Middlevales has a fair number of rail served industries which is gradually increasing as I continue to work on the layout and I find that a bit of thoughtful reflection on what the industries do and need in the way of materials and then produce helps a lot with figuring out believeable traffic movements.  Same goes for the towns as well as the surrounding farms since most of my layouts have a lot of rural countryside.  Passenger trains are a bit of fun and I do like running them, but really there's not a lot in planning it out once I have the number of coaches in any particular passenger service figured out.  Virtual railways do have an advantage when it comes to passenger trains since the numbers of passengers per hour can be setup for each station and they dutifully arrive and stand expectantly on the platform and they also get on the train when it arrives.

 

I always make the roads on my layouts fairly awful requiring a fairly intrepid spirit to use them, - and in addition have them not directly going anywhere, - so in my little world the railway remains supreme and there's no competition from road transport.  Also in my little world Beeching and his cronies were kidnapped by aliens and diesel fuel mysteriously stopped working  completely mystifying all the scientific boffins investigating the 'problem' so steam still reigns supreme and will forevermore.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Annie

[corneliuslundie]

I too like simulation for much the same reason.

At one extreme I have been an operator on Lydham Heath = two locos, five wagons, one carriage and about four turnouts. At the other I recently once again attended the American modular meet at Armitage with my son and we spent the day driving trains American style. .I know which I prefer. Despite that, for space reasons, Sarn is minute and Nantcwmdu will only be about 14 ft long.

#I do wonder if there is a way to adapt the American modular layout approach to the UK railway scene, though it would not be easy. Then one does not have to have an enormous layout but one can get together with others to operate in a realistic manner - though even the American modular meet had the stations and depots very close together.

Anyway, back to the subject of the thread.

Jonathan

[Northroader]

Subject of the thread??? I, me, cough, splutter..!!?? I’m taking that you’re referring to the Freemo meeting, Jonathan. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137743-freemo-usa-2018-trent-valley-meet/ I very nearly mentioned that as a good example of operating carried out over here, in the American style. The thing about it is people roll up with a module, and somehow these are fitted together like a huge jigsaw, and I’m inferring that no one really knows how the layout will go together until it’s done, and then off you go. I haven’t been, but I would imagine it is quite a laid back affair? More comments, please, on how you found it. ( I confess to having an interest in Armitage, as my other line was kindly invited to another do there a couple of years ago, but I never got it ready in time, and it still isn’t ready, deary me)

Edited October 13, 2018 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Just been watching the video for “Cwm Prysor” http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136923-cwm-prysor-bala-blaenau-ffestiniog-branch/page-16&do=findComment&comment=3330798, it’s beautifully modelled, and it does “bleak” very well, but if you’re into simple operation, go no further.

[Annie]

I too like simulation for much the same reason.

At one extreme I have been an operator on Lydham Heath = two locos, five wagons, one carriage and about four turnouts. At the other I recently once again attended the American modular meet at Armitage with my son and we spent the day driving trains American style. .I know which I prefer. Despite that, for space reasons, Sarn is minute and Nantcwmdu will only be about 14 ft long.

#I do wonder if there is a way to adapt the American modular layout approach to the UK railway scene, though it would not be easy. Then one does not have to have an enormous layout but one can get together with others to operate in a realistic manner - though even the American modular meet had the stations and depots very close together.

Anyway, back to the subject of the thread.

Jonathan

 

The one downside, - if it can be called that, - with running a large virtual layout is that if a coal train travels 30 scale miles at 20mph it really does take the same amount of time to do the trip as the prototype would.  Mostly though with a windswept moorland layout like Middlevales I can set the coal train in motion and leave it to get on with it while I do some shunting or other tasks around the layout.  I don't use the simulator's AI to run trains unless I want a good laugh because those robot drivers are truly a brain dead lot and do the most inexplicable things.  Keeping an eye on the clock is all I need to do and also on a layout like Middlevales a train can be seen in the distance from quite a long way off.

But it's not all mega mile distances needing to be travelled.  I have some areas like the industrial branch at Laytown, the forestry branch at Dunleer and the 'works' at Donabate pretty much set up so they can be operated as mini-layouts if I just want to run things in a small way.  I want to work on this a idea a bit more with other industries on the layout and someone even suggested the idea to me of a narrow gauge line running up into the hills to a hotel by one of the lakes in a very nice hidden valley.  (On Middlevales there's  two stunningly beautiful lakes in a hidden valley over a scale mile away from any rail line and they are completely hidden unless you go look for them.  A little 'easter egg' from the layout's original maker.)

 

I'm not sure what 'American style' is, but it just seems to me that if an engine starts from somewhere and goes somewhere else it should have a purpose for doing so and the train that it's got attached to its drawbar should reflect that purpose and be composed of the appropriate wagons/coaches to carry out that purpose.

 

Anyway enough of me hi-jacking the thread with virtual railway stuff.  

[Northroader]

To me, American style is when there’s no one at each station to signal the trains. You can have a timetable to form the framework for operation, but then there’s a despatcher in overall control, and he dictates where all the meets at crossing places happen, either if there’s variation from the timetable, or you’re running extras. The station agent passes his messages to train crews on (before the days of radio), handles the bumpf from the local freight businesses, and looks after any passengers. The train crew sets the points, picks up the bumpf, and shunts accordingly.

British operation is more closely dependant on scheduled trains running under the control of local signalmen.

Anyway, I’m intrigued by how virtual stuff is done, although I’m doubtful I’ll ever go there, so hijack as much as you like.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Northroader

[Regularity]

To me, American style is when there’s no one at each station to signal the trains. You can have a timetable to form the framework for operation, but then there’s a despatcher in overall control, and he dictates where all the meets at crossing places happen, either if there’s variation from the timetable, or you’re running extras. The station agent passes his messages to train crews on (before the days of radio), handles the bumpf from the local freight businesses, and looks after any passengers. The train crew sets the points, picks up the bumpf, and shunts accordingly.

 

That’s formally known as “Timetable and Train Orders”, or TTO. Where long distances exist between stations on a single track route, it is an enormously flexible way to operate trains. Not so good with shorter distances and intense traffic, as the East Anglian Railway found out in the late 1840s.

It is a popular choice in North America, and although the basics are quite straightforward there is a fairly comprehensive set of rules known as “The Rights of Trains”. I gave a copy somewhere, and it’s a great aid if you have trouble getting to sleep...

[Nearholmer]

From a toy train set perspective, the big difference is that UK model operating practice usually focuses on trains, while US model operating practise usually focuses on cars/wagons.

 

There’s no reason why a ‘wagon-focused’ approach can’t be taken to good operation on a British layout, and several people have done so.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Annie]

No signals!    That means 'American style' is definitely not for me because I love signals, - proper signals that is with semaphore arms and not those stupid modern image colour light things.  I have a huge collection of signal models and I put a lot of time into making sure they are correctly placed and work as they should.  The simulator game engine will operate signals correctly, but they have to be placed correctly or they won't work in a prototypical fashion.  One of the joys of driving an engine on my layout is seeing the signals working as they should which means that I can safely drive my chosen engine by following what the signals are indicating to me.  I usually start building a layout by downloading a layout from Auran's download station that has the landscape I want and then I go from there.  That might sound like cheating, but I then go on from there to rework the whole layout to suit what I want.  In effect the existing landscape dictates how I build my railway which is very much something that I'm very keen on and of course follows prototype practice.  The layouts I download have been made by other Trainz enthusiasts and the signalling is usually incorrect (but not always).  Many Trainz layout builders don't seem to know what a distant signal is or what they are for and I really don't understand how anyone can properly and safely drive a locomotive on a railway that has no distant signals.  I'll stop now before I get on my soap box and bore you all to tears.........

 

[corneliuslundie]

The Freemo meet is not that casual. Those intending to take modules send information to a central designer who puts together the plan beforehand and devises three days of timetables. Because there are standardised interfaces between modules and DCC is used to control locos (though not usually points etc) anyone can drive anywhere.

And it is not true to say that there are no signals. Some areas have none but busy lines have them, along with the busier stations. After all you don't operate a high speed four-track main lines with no signals.The Pennsylvania had some very distinctive colour light signals where a row of lights on a circular "board" gave the information.

On its secondary lines i think it had semaphores (upper quadrant) as did most other companies with any density of traffic.

As it happens hardly any of the modules at the last Freemo event had any signals, but I seem to remember that there were more at the event two years ago.

But an issue is that the signals will relate only to a single module, so it might be difficult to set up a UK style block system.

As mentioned, there is a dispatcher for the event who allocates duties and gives permission to enter the main line sections between stations and yards, and in this case also controlled the diamond crossing where two routes intersected. At each end of the longer main line there was a freight yard with a yardmaster whose job it was to accept incoming trains and assemble those due out.

As it happens, this year there were no passenger service because only two of the modules had small passenger stations, and the way the modules were arranged meant that a service between them was not practical. But two years ago there were a couple of good sized stations and we ran passenger services alongside the freight.

To explain, in case anyone is not familiar, the crew of a train is issued with a waybill which shows which wagons must be dropped and picked up at each freight yard, including which position each must.be placed. As most yards have several industries, this means quite a lot of shunting at each yard, as well as forward planning to ensure that it is possible to put the wagons in the right places - sometimes for example there may be no loop or it is shorter than the train, and often there are both facing and trailing sidings.

So how do we adapt that to British practice? I think that is probably the subject for a separate thread.

Jonathan

[Donw]

The reason TTO is popular with US modellers is the way it leaves a lot of descisions up to the train driver. On say a way freight their pick up frieght, it can b e difficult to stick to set timings due to the variable times it takes to shunt. he train driver can consult his timetable plus any train orders (such as special running) and decide it he can get to the next station before an opposing train or whether to wait and make the pass here. Of course if he misjudges or misreads the timetable or forgets train orders you can end up with a cornfield meet! The system only works full size where the train density is low. Of course modellers shrink the intrstation distances and run more trains which makes it more fun . The driver tends to follow his train around the layout.

 

There is one guy in the US who decided to use 35 acres of his ranch for a garden line 10.25 in gauge I think. The crew ride of the train Driver conductor and brakeman and can spend most of a day on a run.

 

In the UK operation more often is based on station working with an operator doing all the signalling and only driving trains into and around his station. Sometimes to a timetable or sometimes as a schedule there is a timetable but the times are ignored.

 

Don

[Northroader]

Just for you, Annie, here’s an American semaphore signal. Although it ain’t a signal, it’s a “train order board” and was used to show passing train crews whether they had to collect written train orders from the station agent or not. The orders were dictated from the despatcher by telephone and originally by telegraph. Once radio technology was sufficiently advanced in the fifties, the despatcher was in direct contact with the train crew, and all this system went. Still, they do add distinction and colour to any line.

I agree with you, a railway without signals doesn’t bear thinking about, and once Washbourne is sufficiently advanced, I’ll have signals, I promise, although I’ll probably do the same as most folks and run trains past them whether they’re on or off!

[corneliuslundie]

And for more American semaphores see http://www.railroadsignals.us/signals/sem/

The semaphore distants are interesting, sort of UK style but inside out.

Jonathan