“WASHBOURNE”

[Nearholmer]

Signal aficionados will probably already know that there were a few installations of US-style three-position semaphores, working to US-designed automatic block systems, in this country, dating from around when the big US electrical companies set-up factories in Britain just after 1900s. But, three-position never really took-off here; the follow-on, still American practice in other respects, installations on main lines achieving the three aspects by using 'home-arm over distant-arm', notably on the LSWR.

[Annie]

All very fascinating.  I did use some American three aspect semaphores on my 3ft 6in gauge NZR based digital layout as they were used here, - though mostly in the South Island.  Very interesting signals and I did enjoy using them.  I've used the 'combined' home arm over distant arm type of signal in a few places on Middlevales (1948-1954 BR) mainly because of the extra information about the line ahead it's able to display.  Very useful with intensively worked short block sections where several trains might be working in the same area.

[Northroader]

I found the link to the American semaphores interesting, Jonathan. One thing I found intriguing, the convention from way back was for signals to take their placing from the direction of travel on double track main lines, so with us signals were on the left hand side of the track (generally) with arms pointing to the left, ditto for French, Belgian, Italian Railways, and for lines with right hand running, such as German and American, signals were on the right, arms pointing to the right. The thing on American semaphores shows the CNWR, which was famous to Americans as being a rare “southpaw” line, ie with left hand running on double tracks, ignored the convention and placed their arms still pointing to the right.

Our stick in the mud drivers must have had a lot of grouses when the Americans started to put in their ideas, Kevin, here’s one from Kings Cross, GNR, 1922. Upper quadrant, never!! Three position, terrible!!!

That’s enough of Johnny Foreigner for now, let’s have a look at some good old British signals, what what..

[corneliuslundie]

I think from a train simulator route that in Romania the signals are normally on the right hand side of the track, but when they are positioned on the left hand side, which seems to be frequent on double lines, there is a board to tell the driver there is a signal on the other side of the track, though for once Google has failed me. In the UK would we put the signals whichever side of the track suited us for sighting purposes.

And your starter for ten; where was the last Brunel type disc and crossbar signal?

Jonathan,

[Compound2632]

That’s enough of Johnny Foreigner for now, let’s have a look at some good old British signals, what what..

 

 

Slotted post signals rebuilt with the arm outside the post?

[Northroader]

OK, Jonathan, I give up. Just a guess, I’d say somewhere near Aberdare, if it isn’t a trick question, like the S& DJR? Stephen, no, they’re Railway Signalling Co. and supplied like that, with strips down the side making them look like slotted posts, don’t know why they did them like that.

[Compound2632]

And your starter for ten; where was the last Brunel type disc and crossbar signal?

 

 

Not Brunel, but some very ancient crossbar signals survived on the Burton brewery lines into the 1960s.

[Edwardian]

I think from a train simulator route that in Romania the signals are normally on the right hand side of the track, but when they are positioned on the left hand side, which seems to be frequent on double lines, there is a board to tell the driver there is a signal on the other side of the track, though for once Google has failed me. In the UK would we put the signals whichever side of the track suited us for sighting purposes.

And your starter for ten; where was the last Brunel type disc and crossbar signal?

Jonathan,

 

Are we talking Welsh narrow gauge?

[corneliuslundie]

Alright. It was in the Forest of Dean near Bilson where a tramroad (possibly Brains' Tramroad) had crossed the running line. It will take me a while to find the photo but it is in one of the well known books. I think it lasted until around Nationalisation. 

I thought everyone would identify it.

BTW when Brian Bere Streeter (an Australian) redid a British train simulatir route to take it back to the pre-grouping era he found that one of the best matches for the signals was Australian.

Now what was this thread about?

Jonathan

[Northroader]

Now what was this thread about?

Jonathan

[Annie]

Alright. It was in the Forest of Dean near Bilson where a tramroad (possibly Brains' Tramroad) had crossed the running line. It will take me a while to find the photo but it is in one of the well known books. I think it lasted until around Nationalisation. 

I thought everyone would identify it.

BTW when Brian Bere Streeter (an Australian) redid a British train simulator route to take it back to the pre-grouping era he found that one of the best matches for the signals was Australian.

Now what was this thread about?

Jonathan

Until some more correct models were made the only way to have GNR somersault signals on a digital layout was to use Australian McKenzie & Holland somersault signal digital models.

[Northroader]

I did this over on Kevin’s thread some time back, but hey, it’s that time of year, innit?

[Regularity]

Aha. Nellie and those generic Hornby 4 wheel coaches...

[Compound2632]

Aha. Nellie and those generic Hornby 4 wheel coaches...

 

More redolent of O gauge tinplate? - given where it was originally posted.

[Regularity]

More redolent of O gauge tinplate? - given where it was originally posted.

Maybe that’s where (Triang-) Hornby drew their inspiration?

[Nearholmer]

Almost certainly the Triang Nellie was inspired by the Bassett Lowke 112 tank, made for them in large numbers and many liveries, in gauges 1 and 0, from shortly after WW1, which in turn was inspired by the LSWR C14/S14.

 

But, I read Northroader’s drawing to be Hornby, not BL, inspired.

[Northroader]

Correct. It’s interesting how pre WW2 Hornby O gauge were able to run a standard range of 0-4-0, tender and tank versions, big four paint schemes, totally bombproof as to running on sectional track on the carpet without derailments. Where did we go wrong?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Northroader

[Regularity]

Correct. It’s interesting how pre WW2 Hornby O gauge were able to run a standard range of 0-4-0, tender and tank versions, big four paint schemes, totally bombproof as to running on sectional track on the carpet without derailments. Where did we go wrong?

We moved from toys to models.

[Northroader]

Well, from today’s standpoint it’s easy to view Hornby tinplate as a toy, but I do feel it’s more than that. It formed a common ground to move out from, and brought cheap RTR to people who might not always have any craft capability to do improvements, but still had the imagination and dream to have a railway in their home.

[Regularity]

I wasn’t making a judgement one way or the other. As representations of objects found in the real world, both are models and serve equally well for the purpose of operation. Both can be operated in a railway like manner, or just played with randomly as toys.

 

It was a statement reflecting a move towards greater fidelity to specific prototypes rather than general representation. It was as much a lament as anything else.

 

PS “Cheap RTR”? Beyond the reach of my parents’ families, and I don’t think that was particularly atypical.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Regularity

[Northroader]

Fair comment on the cheap RTR, I doubt on reflection if any working class families could run to it, but stuff like Trix Twin OO would be as expensive. I was lucky enough to have a second hand clockwork Bing OO, God knows how my parents got it, as it was the middle of WW2. O guage Hornby was Rolls Royce by comparison.

[Nearholmer]

A point not to be missed in this is that Hornby post-WW2 was really a regressive product. They had made some very nice ‘near scale’ material pre-WW2, but retrenched into their ‘toy’ origins post-WW2, because so few people could afford the fancy stuff. Bassett Lowke had a very limited range of ‘not commission’ material after WW2, and seem to have found it increasingly difficult to sell that.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

This ones for Jonathan, as I lifted it out of the Welsh Railways Study Group “Rhymney” book. (Keep up the good work, I gather the “Barry” book is out soon.) Its a 14 ton brake van, intended to tail behind the TVR A class that’s appeared on here recently. The chassis is soldered up from brass strip, with some brass strip axleguards and top hat bearings, then Slaters plastic dummy axlebox/ spring units added. There’s some brass rod to carry brake blocks, couplers, and stepboards, which are formed from Marcway copperclad sleeper strip. The body is Plastikard construction, but for the sides and ends I used Evergreen Scale Models sheet styrene .040” thick. The particular sheet I used was 4150 Novelty, this sheet has plank spacing of .150”/ 3.8mm, which ties in with the drawing, and the joins represent a plank with a lower square edge butt joining with a chamfered upper edge plank, so it’s as good as you can hope for, and the grooves are far more exact than any scribing I could do. There’s some microstrip for the panels, and then I just fill the grooves over with milliput where the framing goes.

[corneliuslundie]

Very nice. I have one in EM gauge but the body was made for me by the late John Johnson. He just approached me at an exhibition one day and gave it to me as a present. He was a brake van specialist.

[MarcD]

Is there a projected publication date on the Varry book?

Marc