Stanier 3P 2-6-2T

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

Recently I was reviewing the steam locomotive collection I have for Sheffield Exchange and thought to myself it would be nice to have a smaller tank loco for some of the shorter trains and journeys. I have both a tender and a tank Ivatt 2MTs but wanted something to bridge the gap between them and the 8 4P 2-6-4T I have amassed. A Stanier 3P would be quite nice and fitting, trouble is with them being unpopular with both railwaymen and puffer nutters the information on them is quite limited. 

 

I know Nu-cast done a kit for them and SE Finecast have now acquired the range. I have on my list to do jobs to contact SE Finecast and ask is it on their list to do?

 

They do now and then turn up on E-bay both complete and as a box of bits and I regularly check for ones on sale. One came up recently but at the time I had already spent my pocket money on other trains stuff.

 

An alternative is scratch build one. The body shouldn't be too hard to make in plastic card, a medium I like working in. Not 100% sure where to source boiler fitting etc.

 

The chassis should not present too much of a problem as I have built brass chassis for diesel shunters. The Hornby 4P 2-6-4T valve gear and cylinders should be suitable.

 

The main thing is that the lack of information including available drawings is a problem. I have a LMS diagram so that is a starters but a more detailed drawing would be more useful, does anyone know where I can access such a thing?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Blandford1969]

When you say drawings which ones are you thinking of?

[Blandford1969]

I should have said that while this class appears to have been unloved you really need photographic evidence for your chosen engine. Earlier engines had keyholes in the tank for filling the sanders, which later engines did not have....but I have got photos of earlier engines loosing the key holes and later ones getting them. Next the engines had cranked tank vents which again on later engines were then straight pipes against the cab, again there are examples of changing over.

[davefrk]

If we got a list of people together who would put their name down for one or two Stanier 3MTs I'm sure Colin Seymour of Gibson would look favourably at finishing the proposed kit. I have one of the two sets of test etches that Alan Gibson had done for evaluation. No masters had been done for the castings when the business was sold to Colin. The only thing I would say though is that with the RTR market being almost saturated with new locos it's only a matter of time till a Stanier or Fowler 3MT is considered.

 

Dave Franks.

[Blandford1969]

I have got a set of etch drawings from a 7mm manufacturer who was happy for me to use them as a basis for one in 4mm. Sadly I have never had the time to do anything with them and they would need redrawing. I agree a 4mm kit would be fab.

[65179]

Various pipe and rod etc drawings for all three variants are available from the Derby Works collection at the NRM.

 

Simon

[Clive Mortimore]

When you say drawings which ones are you thinking of?

Any.

 

 

Various pipe and rod etc drawings for all three variants are available from the Derby Works collection at the NRM.

 

Simon

Thanks for the information, are pipe and rod drawings usable for modelling? The ones I have seen in the Wild Swan/NRM LMS and MR loco books appear to give too much information than a normal modellers outline drawing.

[Clive Mortimore]

I should have said that while this class appears to have been unloved you really need photographic evidence for your chosen engine. Earlier engines had keyholes in the tank for filling the sanders, which later engines did not have....but I have got photos of earlier engines loosing the key holes and later ones getting them. Next the engines had cranked tank vents which again on later engines were then straight pipes against the cab, again there are examples of changing over.

Hi

 

I have noticed that there are variations within the class. Then there is the domeless and domed boilers, did these get swapped around the class? I need to find one that was allocated to an ex-L&YR shed on the NER in the early 60s (if any were) and work from there. Number(s) first then build the loco, providing a decent photo of about the right time period can be found.

 

Another question did they all get the wider chimney in BR days or were some never fitted with Adams ‘Vortex’ blastpipe?

[65179]

Essery and Jenkinson's book suggests that all small boilered variants got the Vortex, but not the large boilered rebuilds (148, 163, 169, 203, 40142 and 40167). They also suggest there was limited alteration of domeless locos (71-144 batch) to take the later domed boilers (no numbers supplied), most were domeless to the end.

Pipe and rod drawings can be very useful e.g. those for the 4F as they aren't quite as cluttered as a GA, but still have lots of handy dimensions. However those, at least, for the domeless 3Ps don't show as much detail (e.g. not much in the way of boiler fittings shown) meaning that other arrangement drawings split up according to tanks and bunker, motion, frames, smokebox etc are also necessary for the full picture rather than one handy drawing, and even then don't give you much in terms of dimensions of the boiler fittings. The alternatives are the old Skinley drawing which lacks much in the way of dimensions and is plain wrong in some areas or the PDH drawing which has also been criticised on here in the past (no personal experience so don't know if that is fair). I don't know if there are other sources.

Blandford1969's comment about details is spot on for this class!

Simon

Edited January 25, 2016 by 65179

[Clive Mortimore]

Cheers Simon

 

Looks like an enquiry to the NRM is going to be made. 

[Barry O]

Try talking to Mike Edge - he keeps mentioning a 3P and its on his list of things to do.

[Clive Mortimore]

Try talking to Mike Edge - he keeps mentioning a 3P and its on his list of things to do.

Hi Barry

 

I did read that it was not his highest priority. Now should I start building one he will produce a kit, he has do so with nearly every diesel shunter I have scratchbuilt or started to make.  

[Blandford1969]

HI All,

 

Here is a photo of a 'pipe and rod' drawing of an early version with combined dome and top feed. Apologies if the quality is not very good, but I do not have a scanner big enough. 

 

 

[65179]

As Blandford1969's post shows the pipe and rod drawing for this variant of the 3P isn't as useful as some.  It gives you basic outline including that of the frames (without springs), but lacks detail of external boiler and firebox details (including shape of the dome etc) or the motion.  The corresponding end views don't show the smokebox door either.  As a result you need some of the other arrangement drawings I referred to above (I've edited my post #9 to remove my sloppy use of terminology as only two of the available drawings are pipe and rod) for a fuller picture.  For example I also have the tank and bunker drawings which give you more detail of these parts only (i.e. no smokebox front detail either).

 

It's not a cheap way of trying to assemble a set of drawings with everything you'd want for a scratchbuild or etch design!

 

Simon

[Mike G]

 

but I do not have a scanner big enough. 

 

I do...

 

Mike

[Blandford1969]

I'm willing to have a go at a drawing based on the pipe and rod and other drawings and photos I have, however I am missing some dimensions. Simon would you be willing to share your tank and bunker drawings?

 

In terms of the drawings here is the list with mine (combined dome and top feed)

Pipe and Rod arrgt -end views D34-13821

Frame arrangement D34-13725

Motion arrangement D34- 13769

Tank Cab and bunker arrangement D34 13739 (is this the one you have Simon?

Boiler arrangement D34 13542

Firebox (remember there were later variants including the larger boiler) D34 13543

Internal Pipe Arrangement D34 13667

Ashpan arrangement D34 13563

Pony truck - D34 13152 - I think we can use a standard LMS pony as also used on the stanier 2-6-4 as a copy - unless someone says it is totally different

Smokebox D34 13705

Pony truck lub arrangement D34 13818

Lub arrangement for Cyls, Axleboxes, etc D34 13748

Arrangement of pipes and pads on boiler D34 13710

Continous blow down water and feed arrangements D34 13768

Sanding and desanding arrangement D34 1`3715

Brake block D37 15152

 

I have highlighted those useful for making a drawing as above.

 

A lot of the basic dimensions on the side view are the same as the Fowler 2-6-2, however question 1 - is the width the same as the Fowler 2-6-2 at 8' 9 1/2 across and is the portion of the front platform the same width as on the Fowler?

 

Duncan

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Duncan

 

The weight diagram gives a width of 8 ft 11 ins.

 

 

Taken from a book called British Locomotive Types 1943 edition. It is full of loco diagrams.

[Blandford1969]

Thanks Clive - the boiler is a 6A - the grate was enlarged by adding a sloping doorplate after the first batch to increase the heating area.  I will do some notes on the boilers although visually there are really only three visual variants

 

Class 6 boiler - Domeless

Class 6A boiler both domeless and with dome

Internally however there were alterations to the boiler to try to improve it.

 

Both of these boilers were 4' 9" at the firebox end and 4' 2" at the smokebox end -

 

6B boiler 4'9 to 4'6" - 7 of these boilers were built and 6 engines altered to be able to take them.

 

Length between the tube plates was the same as on earlier boilers but the increase in size allowed the number of super heaters to be increased.

 

I've made a start and am using the set of etch drawings I have to help, however there are some things I have not see photographic evidence of so there will be more questions along the way as we get to them.

 

Duncan

Edited January 27, 2016 by Blandford1969

[Tiptonian]

Probably no use whatsoever to you, but there is a drawing of the Fowler version in Railway Modeller January 1965.

[Blandford1969]

The Fowler version shared the same dimensions on the frames so it gives a few useful details. In doing a bit more looking at the etch drawings and photographic evidence as well as the variations on boilers, chimneys, lubrication (visible on the front of the tanks), vents, where the 'British Railways;' transfer is on the tanks,  there is also screens at the cab doors. I have been working on a spreadsheet for a few years capturing all the detail variations I could find through photographic evidence in books and on the internet. The purpose being for modelling

[uax6]

Clive,

 

Give Dave at SEF a bell, he'll probably spin you the castings from the existing moulds. He's very good, I got some HR ben parts (and a complete loco body) from him when it was first announced that he had got the kits. Pleasure to deal with.

 

Andy G

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Andy

 

Thanks, it sounds like a route to explore.

[gismorail]

 

Agree with you on this one something like this maybe 

[Jub45565]

Clive,

 

Give Dave at SEF a bell, he'll probably spin you the castings from the existing moulds. He's very good, I got some HR ben parts (and a complete loco body) from him when it was first announced that he had got the kits. Pleasure to deal with.

 

Andy G

 

 

That sounds like a good idea - but actually there will probably be a few people interested, so is it worth combining forces rather than a flurry of individual emails?

 

The amount of interest shown may also give them (as its an SEF & Branchlines joint venture AFAIK) an idea of how far up the priority list it could be for a new chassis.

[uax6]

I suggest one of you has a word with Dave, and then reports back here. The only thing to bare in mind is that development budget is tight, but if you can prove there is a demand, who knows what will happen! Infact it may be one of the Nu-cast kits that had a decent chassis to start with! Dave also has plenty of detailing bits from his other kits, so possibly they can be used on it too.

 

Andy G