The Oak Hill Branch - LBSCR / SECR 1905ish - New layout starts on page 129

[Pelham Street]

Gary, Is it true that the SECR have bought out Oakhill station, as the Brighton could only provide terriers for the train services?

[BlueLightning]

Ian,

 

It is either that or I have brought out the SECR!!!! Don't suppose you have a copy of Mike Kings "An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-push Stock" I can borrow do you???

 

I have now heard back from my SECR Friend who has no info on the 6-wheeler Push-Pull's, he says that Mike King would be the man who has drawings if they exist.

 

Gary

[C.A.T.Ford]

Ian,

 

It is either that or I have brought out the SECR!!!! Don't suppose you have a copy of Mike Kings "An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-push Stock" I can borrow do you???

 

I have now heard back from my SECR Friend who has no info on the 6-wheeler Push-Pull's, he says that Mike King would be the man who has drawings if they exist.

 

Gary

The six wheel Pull-push stock worked the Sevenoaks Tubs Hill-Bat and Ball shuttle I have some pictures of the train in a couple of books in my library but I'm busy preparing my layout for an exhibition and can't afford the time to hunt through a hundred or so.

 

CAT

[Northroader]

I must congratulate Mr. Edwardian on his diligence in looking through his new book, I have to admit I did a skim through my copy, and missed the reference to conversion of the 6wheelers. (In my defence I have to say the typewritten format without breaks does my head in) I don't really want to go into the bogie pushpulls right now, so, off to another reference with verbatim quotes:

"SR branch line trains" R.W.Kidner, Oakwood, 1984. "Around 1912-4 nine 3-6 (i.e. Three 6wheelers) local sets were made up from 6w stock (3rd,, compo, and 3rd brake) of which seven were fitted for push pull, although not always used as such"

"(SECR steam railcars) five SER arcroof 6 wheelers were converted in 1906, all thirds, but with two compartments converted to luggage space with drop seats. At least one had end windows, but not certain wether these were used as control trailers or run around as required."

"Eight P class were built, and some carriages control fitted, four or possibly eight ex LCDR bogie coaches, SEC sets 271/2, and seven sets of three ex LCD 6w, SEC sets 266-70. The bogie sets were formed in 1910, originally one coach each side of the engine.... the 6w sets comprised 3rd, comp, bk3rd (3compt except one set which was four compt.)

"SR rolling stock" R.W.Kidner, Oakwood, 1974."By 1914 steam railmotors were laid aside and auto trains powered by P class 0-6-0T had taken their place. The 3-6 sets working Sevenoaks and Gravesend unusual in that the thirds had only half height bulkheads, spittoons composing hunks of cloth screwed to the floor in each compartment (yuck!) suggesting they had done a stint in workmens trains."

This book also has a drawing by Mr. David Gould for one of the 3compt bk 3rds converted for the IoW in SR days, this has got a truss added to the solebar and the middle wheelset removed. You could also get an extra compartment where the panelling at the brake end is, and the all thirds were the same with five compts.

[BlueLightning]

That is some bl00dy good info!!!! Guess what just got added to my build list!!

 

Gary

[C.A.T.Ford]

Excellent info Northroader it saves me feeling bad about not being free to find the photographs! It should be remembered that at the time of the P class being P&P locos the SECR used a mechanical linkage through the set similar to the GWR. The LSWR were playing with cables over the roof and the LBSCR were developing the air pressure system which became the SR standard. I just wonder how many of these systems were "adapted" by crews.

 

CAT

[BlueLightning]

No need to feel bad, you have already provided plenty of help!! I understand there were instances where crews would not hook up the mechanical linkage, prefering instead to run around the train as it was easier!!

 

Gary

[Northroader]

Glad you've found it useful, just adding some more detail to flesh it out, LCDR coaches had air brakes and oil lighting, SECR went for vac. Brakes and electric lighting, and it would seem most were converted by 1905. Second class compartments were same size as thirds, the variation being in the trimming. You can see one of these in the flesh as it were, the Havenstreet gang having done a very good restoration with SR finish. There's also a 4compt, first at Quainton Road, with the teak LCDR finish, and the distinctive oval recess door panels.

Mentioning the Isle of Wight leads on to another book to look out for, and as it's a more recent publication it will be easier to find, Oakwood "I.o.W. steam passenger rolling stock". This has a full chapter on LCDR four wheelers, with nice clear photos, and detail and dimensions of the differing types. (It's also looks at LSWR and LBSC types as well, so no SR fan should be without it.)

At the period we're looking at they were all six wheelers, the SECR starting to convert to 4w after ww1, I think, and this is really the only thing you could have against them as a modeller. They have a tumble home to the sides, but the ends are flat, the roofs are plain low single arc, with just torpedo vents and rainstrip detail, the windows are square cut, and the panel mouldings don't have the round infill in the corners, just straight strips, so you can sail ahead with the micro-strip, and you'll have something useful for the P. It's a pity they're LCDR, I'm just not interested in it as a line, I like the SER a great deal more!

[Edwardian]

This is interesting, not least because it suggests:

 

(1) the bogie trailers (sets 271 and 272) were, contrary to Gould, converted 1910, not 1912; and, 

 

(2) the 6-wheel conversions were later - "Around 1912-4"

 

Gould's Carriage Stock book has a note against the 6-Wheel Second conversions.  Given what Northroader has unearthed, this is worth quoting in full:

 

2 compartments replaced by driving compartment, fitted for push & push working.  Close-coupled, 6/14.

 

I had assumed that the date June 1914 referred only to the sets becoming close-coupled.  Perhaps not?

 

Here we have the possibility that Gary's friend was right all along, and that, in fact, the2 bogie sets preceded the 6-wheel sets!

 

I guess you choose, and very few would be in a position to object! 

 

I note that H's Dave has not so far responded to my question about the buffers.  These days I can be safely ignored, and am not able to press the point.  A pity if they come with the wrong buffers when the right buffers are tooled for, but not, I think, the end of the world. Indeed, it seems to me that relatively little would need to be done to the 2 RTR releases to enable them to reflect the advertised 1909/10-1911 condition accurately. I suspect that all that need be done is to replace the buffers and modify/reduce the smoke-box riveting, which, crucially, does not interfere with the complex livery application. 

 

EDIT: "riveting"

Edited September 14, 2017 by Edwardian

[BlueLightning]

This sort of info is why I love RMWeb!!! I will certainly now be having some ex-LCDR carriages for one of my P Classes, regardless of weather they would have appeared with the P Classes originally, as well as the ex-SER 4 wheelers currently being produced by Londontram.

 

If the bogie sets were produced in 1910  that may well put them as the original push-pull stock for the P Classes, after all only 2 were built in 1909 and they seem to have spent most of that year on trials, the rest of the class not being delivered until February - July 1910. 323 and 325 being the final 2, and painted in experimental livery's to match motor trains.

 

James, I think the fact that Dave hasn't answered your question on the other thread gives us the answer, it is a sham really as I cannot see it being something that is particularly hard to do, I am however sure there must be a source of the correct style buffers out there already.

 

Gary

[Edwardian]

This sort of info is why I love RMWeb!!! I will certainly now be having some ex-LCDR carriages for one of my P Classes, regardless of weather they would have appeared with the P Classes originally, as well as the ex-SER 4 wheelers currently being produced by Londontram.

 

If the bogie sets were produced in 1910  that may well put them as the original push-pull stock for the P Classes, after all only 2 were built in 1909 and they seem to have spent most of that year on trials, the rest of the class not being delivered until February - July 1910. 323 and 325 being the final 2, and painted in experimental livery's to match motor trains.

 

James, I think the fact that Dave hasn't answered your question on the other thread gives us the answer, it is a sham really as I cannot see it being something that is particularly hard to do, I am however sure there must be a source of the correct style buffers out there already.

 

Gary

 

One of the factors that militates against supplying alternate buffers is that this, alone, cannot render the 'as preserved' locos accurate representations of the as built condition, so to advertise them as "1909-1911" or "1910-1911" isn't quite right. 

 

To be accurately 'as-built', a different version of each Wainwright liveried model would need to be supplied, not only with the correct buffers, but also with a different smoke-box.  The preserved locos have snap riveted replacement smokeboxes.

 

I am struggling to find clear early views of Ps, but  it is quite clear that the snap-head rivets were not present on the wrapper, and I do not think it likely they were present on the front plate, either.  From what I can see, snap-head rivets only crop up from the 1920s onward on these locomotives.

 

Now, none of this particularly bothers me, because I can trim away rivets and then smooth down the surface; a smokebox does not require a pristine satin finish, so I can repaint it quite easily. Of course, it would be suicidal, for me, to mention this on the product frothing, sorry, announcement, topic, but hopefully not here, where readers might actually care about such things.

[Compound2632]

So the 'sandwich' arrangement with two converted bogie coaches in the Greenwich Park photo is also the likely configuration for the Reading-Ash train? Oh dear, so tempting.

 

Part of the appeal is that it has so much in common with the look of the contemporary Midland motor trains.

[Edwardian]

So the 'sandwich' arrangement with two converted bogie coaches in the Greenwich Park photo is also the likely configuration for the Reading-Ash train? Oh dear, so tempting.

 

Part of the appeal is that it has so much in common with the look of the contemporary Midland motor trains.

 

Quite possibly.  And isn't it just?

[BlueLightning]

I am struggling to find clear early views of Ps, but  it is quite clear that the snap-head rivets were not present on the wrapper, and I do not think it likely they were present on the front plate, either.  From what I can see, snap-head rivets only crop up from the 1920s onward on these locomotives.

 

where readers might actually care about such things.

 

I have some quite clear pictures, They show no rivets on the smokebox or front plate so your assumption is correct, I also have one of A555supposedly taken in 1927 which still has no rivets at that date, it does however have an extension to its bunker!!

 

I too hope that readers here care about these more precise details, even if my modelling isn't always good enough to replicate them all.

 

 

So the 'sandwich' arrangement with two converted bogie coaches in the Greenwich Park photo is also the likely configuration for the Reading-Ash train? Oh dear, so tempting.

 

Part of the appeal is that it has so much in common with the look of the contemporary Midland motor trains.

 

You know you want too!!!! I also want to see that midland one modelled as well!!

 

Gary

[Nick Holliday]

So the 'sandwich' arrangement with two converted bogie coaches in the Greenwich Park photo is also the likely configuration for the Reading-Ash train? Oh dear, so tempting.

 

Part of the appeal is that it has so much in common with the look of the contemporary Midland motor trains.

The whole story is explained in Mike King's Pull Push book, complete with drawings for most variations. As far as the Reading-Ash service, the bogie coach sets were transferred there in 1919, but LCDR R and R1 locos were used, as the P had proved under-powered to cope with four coaches, if running together.

Mike King has the benefit of several years more research and info, and the dates he gives for the various SECR conversions are slightly different from Gould et al. 6 six wheel SER coaches were converted 1906/7, as trailers for the steam railmotors, with 3 more in 1909, probably for use with the P class. The 4 LCDR bogie coaches were converted in 1912, and could operate as pairs or singly. Over the next two years seven three coach sets of (mostly) LCDR six wheelers were formed for PP duties. Most of the earlier SER conversions had the PP equipment removed by 1917.

[Edwardian]

The whole story is explained in Mike King's Pull Push book, complete with drawings for most variations. As far as the Reading-Ash service, the bogie coach sets were transferred there in 1919, but LCDR R and R1 locos were used, as the P had proved under-powered to cope with four coaches, if running together.

Mike King has the benefit of several years more research and info, and the dates he gives for the various SECR conversions are slightly different from Gould et al. 6 six wheel SER coaches were converted 1906/7, as trailers for the steam railmotors, with 3 more in 1909, probably for use with the P class. The 4 LCDR bogie coaches were converted in 1912, and could operate as pairs or singly. Over the next two years seven three coach sets of (mostly) LCDR six wheelers were formed for PP duties. Most of the earlier SER conversions had the PP equipment removed by 1917.

 

That makes sense.  Thanks for this clarification.

[C.A.T.Ford]

Just managed to get to my Mike King P&P book  all the pictures of class P are pre 1927 and none show a riveted smoke box. The plate on page 15 shows a P propelling a three coach set away from Otford. While Chapter 10 has coach drawings and more class P plates, What would we do without Mr. King?

 

CAT 

[BlueLightning]

Thanks,

 

I really must get myself a copy of that book!!

 

Gary

[Northroader]

I picked the coach in the drawing because it was typical for your bog standard LCDR coaches, and could be used as a basis for getting some models together, and the drawing was there. However, it was one transferred from the Sheppey Light railway to the IoW, and formed one of set 40, three 6w saloons and the brake third. The LCDR had built six second class saloons in 1887-8, using them to take pupils to and fro from boarding schools. The seating was by bench seats along sides and ends. Three of these went into set 40 around 1919, with the brake third having the seating done to the same pattern. Gangways were fitted through the set so that the guard could issue tickets. The set had an overhaul at Ashford in 1924, but soon after the SR decided to use old SEC railmotor portions on Sheppey, and the coaches went into Lancing being converted to four wheelers and having the vacuum replaced by air brake, also first compartments added. One of the saloons had guards compartment with drivers position included, and the brake third had a drivers position added. The coaches were shipped over to the IoW as two pushpull sets 483/4 in 1924, being used as regular stock until 1926 when three Terriers were pushpull fitted at Ryde. They were replaced by bogie stock in 1938, and the bodies sold off (there are "cottages" scattered all over the island) Fortunately two have been restored at Havenstreet, so,you can ride in them now. As you can guess, I've lifted all this gen from the book I was talking about.

[Bluebell Model Railway]

I must congratulate Mr. Edwardian on his diligence in looking through his new book, I have to admit I did a skim through my copy, and missed the reference to conversion of the 6wheelers. (In my defence I have to say the typewritten format without breaks does my head in) I don't really want to go into the bogie pushpulls right now, so, off to another reference with verbatim quotes:

"SR branch line trains" R.W.Kidner, Oakwood, 1984. "Around 1912-4 nine 3-6 (i.e. Three 6wheelers) local sets were made up from 6w stock (3rd,, compo, and 3rd brake) of which seven were fitted for push pull, although not always used as such"

"(SECR steam railcars) five SER arcroof 6 wheelers were converted in 1906, all thirds, but with two compartments converted to luggage space with drop seats. At least one had end windows, but not certain wether these were used as control trailers or run around as required."

"Eight P class were built, and some carriages control fitted, four or possibly eight ex LCDR bogie coaches, SEC sets 271/2, and seven sets of three ex LCD 6w, SEC sets 266-70. The bogie sets were formed in 1910, originally one coach each side of the engine.... the 6w sets comprised 3rd, comp, bk3rd (3compt except one set which was four compt.)

"SR rolling stock" R.W.Kidner, Oakwood, 1974."By 1914 steam railmotors were laid aside and auto trains powered by P class 0-6-0T had taken their place. The 3-6 sets working Sevenoaks and Gravesend unusual in that the thirds had only half height bulkheads, spittoons composing hunks of cloth screwed to the floor in each compartment (yuck!) suggesting they had done a stint in workmens trains."

This book also has a drawing by Mr. David Gould for one of the 3compt bk 3rds converted for the IoW in SR days, this has got a truss added to the solebar and the middle wheelset removed. You could also get an extra compartment where the panelling at the brake end is, and the all thirds were the same with five compts.

IMG_1323.JPG

And we still have this set on the Isle of Wight, got all the drawings for it as I was working on a 3D print for a company on the island.

[Edwardian]

Thanks for that Northroader,

 

It's a shame they were shipped over to the IoW, I'd rather fancy something quirky like that set being used for my fictitious branch between Hastings and Ashford via the KESR, but I suppose then you can never say never to Colonel Stephens, can you?

 

A number of the 3-coach ex-LCDR 6-wheeler push-pull sets remained in service until 1929.  From 1926 in Maunsell green. Any use to you?

[BlueLightning]

Well it's been quite a while since I actually had an update for Oak Hill, but while I still need to sort out the pictures I took of layouts at the Uckfield show. I can show you the purchases I made!!

 

First there were some new wagons from Simply Southern:

 

and also a nice new loco kit from South Eastern Finecast:

 

I am very impressed with the kit having an etched chassis and flushglaze windows included as standard for a very reasonable price. In fact I'm sure I have seen body only kits that cost more!!

 

I already have wheels and a motor for this loco so I'm sure it won't be too long before I start work on it, this is a loco I have wanted for some time and cannot wait to see it running.

 

Gary

 

PS. Is it too early to say that next years exhibition will be on the 20th and 21st of October?? It gives you all plenty of time to book holidays in the south so you can attend!!! :jester:

Edited October 24, 2017 by BlueLightning

[BlueLightning]

Well I still haven't gone through the pictures. I did get a visit from the postman though.

 

Time for some reading:

 

Gary

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi Gary..

 

I too have that book.

 

It is in fact a compilation from a Partwork Series. Plenty of reading, great pictures. Lots of model railway history....

 

For anyone who doesn't know this book, it is a massive tome, Large Format, larger than A4, and a good thickness as well...

 

Weighs a ton...so the postage and packing must have been quite high!

[Guest Midland Mole]

A D1 kit, very nice!

Alex