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1/120th Scale


Allegheny1600

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Hello All,

I've decided to accept the challenge of starting a topic based upon rife speculation that British TT may make a re-appearance again. This would be a great thing to see, IMHO.

I see no reason to go over the original products, anyone who's 'into' TT must know all there is to know about that.

What I would like to discuss is what I see as the only sensible option for any possible future range of British TT outline models.

 

Now, the popularity of TT scale on the continent; a quick straw poll of items for sale on German ebay (the largest market and the easiest way I can think of of obtaining some comparable figures)

 

Z = 15,141

N = 68,022

TT = 15,893

H0 = 277,352

00 = 754

S = 118

0 = 5,076

1 = 4,279

G = 11,527

 

This is out of well over 430, 000 items for sale at 14.30Hrs on 26/01/2016 and doesn't count any of the narrow gauge items. I know it's not properly scientific as many folk list their items in the wrong section or in two or more sections. However, I feel this is a large enough sample to make some reasonable assumptions.

Say each item represents one modeller, some will be businesses selling thousands of items, some will be individuals who sell once in a blue moon (like me!). For the pruposes of this topic, I think it safe to say 1 item = 1 modeller.

 

Please note the VAST difference in H0 scale numbers - this shows how immensly far ahead in the maket H0 scale is.

This shows that TT is in third place in the market sector, just ahead of Z scale but still a long way behind N gauge. Easy reckoning shows that TT actually has aproximately 5% of the German market place.

Apply these numbers to the UK and you would get possibly around 5000 TT'ers (106K '00' items for sale!) as a potential market - not that many when you consider the varied subjects they will choose to model.

What would be an ideal loco to start off an RTR range with? Got to be either an 08, 20, 37, 47 or 56, possibly with the exception of "Flying Scotsman", Why?

All these locos are either iconic, long lived or have been seen working abroad. Remember the size of the German market at three times the size of the UK market? (an 8F or WD might also qualify in this regard).

If it's a loco that is totally iconic or has been seen abroad, it should have appeal to the European market and there you have more sales potential. BUT ONLY if it runs on 12mm gauge track and much preferably, is also the same 1/120th scale.

 

In addition to all this, with 1/120th scale, you have track from several manufacturers already available (12mm gauge) not to mention, mechanisms, wheels, motors & couplings.

 

So! There you have it! If you're a manufacturer and you want to sell your new TT scale products for a profit, you need to consider the European if not worldwide market. Any such products aimed at just the tiny UK market alone (even counting ex pats etc) is just too small to consider and any such new products need to be in 1/120th scale.

 

Am I wrong? Discuss.

Regards,

John E.

 

Other places to research just how many TT'ers there are worldwide, must be available from online forums etc, I just didn't have time yet to check this out.

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Hi Jeff,

As far as I know, Peco 12mm gauge track represents metre gauge in H0 scale, nothing to stop it being used in fiddle yards and hidden track work though.

The likes of Tillig, Piko and any other European makers, does represent standard gauge, I believe it actually comes out at 1440mm gauge, rather than the 1435mm it should be. In my book, that's pretty darn close to perfect.

Cheers,

John

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If this is discussed won't it largely repeat the '2016' thread.

What is being suggested? If it is a limited production of the few (don't know how many, too modern for me) prototypes that could be seen both here and in Europe then good luck.

If it's supposed to be a general British outline modelling scale then what has German eBay to do with it?

Apart from those few international prototypes where is your market for, say, '70's BR diesels, or any UK steam? A few collectors abroad maybe, but not British 3mm modellers, and would many British people take up a wholly new scale without all the bits and pieces that 3mm has, especially when it's only slightly larger than British N?

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Am I wrong? Discuss.

 

 Yes.

 Well. Maybe!

 

Your figures show the Germans are satisfied with HO, nothing more. HO is a scale product.

 

The British are showing a degree of dissatisfaction with OO, which can never be a scale product.

 

Attempts to introduce HO to the UK failed. There is not enough differentiation with OO and people stuck with the compromises they were familiar with at a time when OO detail was improving.

 

Attempts to encourage N in the UK by large manufacturing investment in upgrading model details do not seem to be greatly increasing N use.

 

Current UK use of 1:100 to 1:120 is small. But that is because there is nothing much UK-related to buy except kits, apart from old Triang TT, which is non-scale.

 

There is clearly a considerable UK demand for an intermediate home-friendly RTR true scale product. But no one knows how big.

One person's guess is probably no better than anyone else's given the lack of market research.

 

No one knows if the choice between 1:100 and 1:120 would significantly impact the numbers of people who would either change from OO and N or start up fresh.

Arbitrarily dismissing one or the other scale without evidence is unhelpful.

 

A major move into 1:100 or 1:120 by a UK manufacturer would necessarily involve entirely new track, rolling stock and accessories.

Compatibility with existing material is probably irrelevant as the whole point of the new product would be to improve scale accuracy as well as reduce overall size, and most existing material is to old manufacturing standards and level of accuracy.

 

The manufacturer willing and able to do this will set the new UK standards of scale and track, presumably supported by patents. They will not care about other people's products and what has gone before. They will want to profit from the whole package of track, rolling stock, control, lineside buildings and equipment, not let others do it.

 

Introducing the subject of which are the best locos to produce is way too premature.

 

 

None of this is to say a new intermediate scale would be profitable (so you could be right - or wrong).

 

It does say there is an opportunity in the UK worth the major manufacturers looking at again and in greater detail and wider range than before, given a slowly rising sense of dissatisfaction with existing UK scales and a big questionmark over where OO can develop from here.

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If this is discussed won't it largely repeat the '2016' thread.

What is being suggested? If it is a limited production of the few (don't know how many, too modern for me) prototypes that could be seen both here and in Europe then good luck.

If it's supposed to be a general British outline modelling scale then what has German eBay to do with it?

Apart from those few international prototypes where is your market for, say, '70's BR diesels, or any UK steam? A few collectors abroad maybe, but not British 3mm modellers, and would many British people take up a wholly new scale without all the bits and pieces that 3mm has, especially when it's only slightly larger than British N?

Hi John,

German ebay comes into it as it is the largest market for model railways in the world, I used that as an example of how large the TT scale market is - in the place where TT scale has the largest following.

From that, I extrapolated the potential for the size of the likely market in the UK - should a new RTR "TT scale" be introduced, that is all.

One has to draw upon some figures from somewhere, else where do you start?

.

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear in the beginning! I want to explore how a range of 1/120th scale models could be introduced into the UK - i know that there are a fair few proper 3mm scale modellers working in UK outline, some of whom run on 12mm gauge track, some on 13.5mm and some on 14.2mm.

While this is all very fine and commendable, it is hardly 'commercial' and if RTR TT British outline comes back, it will have to be commercial.

That's all there is to it, I'm afraid - if it's not commercial, it won't work.

Therefore, the whole point of this topic is to see how 'British TT' could become commercial and I truly, firmly believe the only way is to follow the Europeans and adopt 1/120th scale. You simply won't get the required number of sales otherwise.

Once British TT could become established, then (and only then) more models including '70's BR diesels, UK steam proper and so forth, could be introduced. I estimate this would take some five to ten years, following the example of British 0 scale RTR.

Cheers,

John.

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Being less scientific about the German TT market, I'll wind my time machine back...

 

Aside from Rokal's foray in the market which ended in 1969, the market was pretty well exclusively East German.  In 1989, this made up about 20% of the total German population.  Berliner, and then Tillig, held a monopoly.  It was not until 1998 that Roco launched models, initially sold under Tillig's branding.  Modelling in the former DDR was not exclusively TT scale, there were also H0 models from Piko (and other makes, but sold under the Piko brand).  As such, the scale could be regarded as being very much a poor relation until the 21st Century.  It was also around this time that the first West German outline models started appearing.  As such, TT has only really started becoming a truly pan-German scale in the last 15 years.  It's still very much split geographically, although the big online retailers tend to stock some TT, it's not very likely that a chance visit to a West German model shop will offer you any TT to buy.  When they do, it's usually just Tillig, Roco and Piko - the smaller brands such as Kuehn, Beckmann and Kres don't get a look in.  Even visiting Intermodellbau I've found little to draw my wallet from my pocket.  With this considered, I think TT does well to hold 5% of the ebay market- consider that pre-1998 only one brand was selling TT, and that the market only covered a small proportion of the population in a part of the country not known for having high disposable income.

 

Anecdotally, there is increasing popularity of TT in the West, largely as more modern and ex-West German prototypes become available.  There's a healthy club in Hamburg with a very nice TT modular set-up for instance.  Asking René Wilfer (Piko President) about growth in a Q&A late last year, he said that he considers the TT market as stable.

 

As a user of TT scale, I think it's going from strength to strength.  More products are coming out every year, and even uncommon prototypes such as DR BR 252 and BR 251 are coming out RTR.  West German prototypes are becoming available.  If anything's lacking, it's non-DDR cars!

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Hi John,

German ebay comes into it as it is the largest market for model railways in the world, I used that as an example of how large the TT scale market is - in the place where TT scale has the largest following.

From that, I extrapolated the potential for the size of the likely market in the UK - should a new RTR "TT scale" be introduced, that is all.

One has to draw upon some figures from somewhere, else where do you start?

 

 

I'm not sure if German is the largest TT market in the world, but I wouldn't know how to get figures for elsewhere.  It utterly dominates the Czech railway modelling scene, eclipsing H0 in the available models, and I know it has a reasonable following in Russia.

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I'm not sure if German is the largest TT market in the world, but I wouldn't know how to get figures for elsewhere.  It utterly dominates the Czech railway modelling scene, eclipsing H0 in the available models, and I know it has a reasonable following in Russia.

Hi Rich,

Aha! I've miss-written that, I fear! I meant that Germany is the largest market for model railways in the world, not neccessarily that the German market for TT is the largest in the world! Semantics, I know!

Cheers,

John.

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Hi John,

German ebay comes into it as it is the largest market for model railways in the world, I used that as an example of how large the TT scale market is - in the place where TT scale has the largest following.

Once British TT could become established, then (and only then) more models including '70's BR diesels, UK steam proper and so forth, could be introduced. I estimate this would take some five to ten years, following the example of British 0 scale RTR.

Cheers,

John.

My thought is that maybe you could get a number of sales of those international prototypes, but I doubt that would be anything more than an addition to the European TT ranges, it would hardly add up to a big enough range of British models to become so established here that it would create a UK market that could then support models of UK-only prototypes in a completely new (for UK) scale. That's the difference compared to British 0 gauge - that was RTR developing in an established scale, so it could benefit from all the existing kits and bits.

Still, if you want it I hope it works, but I have my doubts.

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A short story, inspired by Rich's trip into the memory banks.

When I joined Mickleover MRC (Derby) waaay back in 1983, I made friends with a couple of chaps who were into East German/East European TT, either at that time or shortly thereafter. This was Tim S. and Dave B.

I can't remember too much about their layout but it must have been very early for such models to make their way 'over here' prior to the wall coming down! Of course, it would all go to help the DDR economy which was in poor straights at the time, hence why Steam lasted until 1988!

Cheers!

John.

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The market for British outline models in a small scale is, well, precisely that. How many TT modellers in mainland Europe would buy British TT simply because they model in TT? Very few, I suspect. The market throughout the world, whether the UK, Europe, America or wherever, consists of those people which like the idea of British models in a small scale. It would include those people already doing precisely that, through people who like the idea of doing something different, right through to those who simply collect things, for whatever reason. The existence of Contintental TT would have minimal effect. Stick with 3mm/ft on 12mm track, and you have something which has a 60 year history and still has an existing customer base, with a track gauge already used.

 

If a manufacturer was to concentrate totally on modern image stuff, almost entirely bogie stock, then TT could be viable. But would they want to do that? Would there be a TT British market in modern image big enough to justify bypassing steam and also the existing 3mm/ft base? Bachmann and Hornby sell their OO stuff across the world, in spite of it not being HO. Same would apply to 3mm/ft.

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I think the Class 66 available in 1:120, plus the various other bits of rolling stock that has moved back and forth across the channel indicates when we are starting with a blank slate, we should not aim to be different.

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The market for British outline models in a small scale is, well, precisely that. How many TT modellers in mainland Europe would buy British TT simply because they model in TT? Very few, I suspect.  ***

All I can say is that I must have been fortunate to have met some continentals who DO have British 00 models in their collections!

Like non-parochial Brits who buy models from various countries because they like them (like me!), some continentals do buy British and enjoy their models. Yes, the continentals who actually build entire British model layouts are RARE but, for the purposes of this excercise, I'm only contemplating those who would buy anything British at all.

If a manufacturer was to concentrate totally on modern image stuff, almost entirely bogie stock, then TT could be viable. But would they want to do that? Would there be a TT British market in modern image big enough to justify bypassing steam and also the existing 3mm/ft base? Bachmann and Hornby sell their OO stuff across the world, in spite of it not being HO. Same would apply to 3mm/ft.

All that matters is that they have the option of running it on 'their' track - if that's 16.5mm gauge they can. Similarly with 12mm gauge - they can still run any such models. 00 models can 'get away' with it as the overall physical size of the models are similar, compared to H0 models. How do 3mm scale models compare with 1/120th scale models?

 

I am concerned that any new British TT available commercially is made to a common 12mm track gauge AND has correctly proportioned bodywork - which means 1/120th scale. I appreciate that would mean losing a LOT of 'proper' 3mm modellers (whichever gauge they work in) and I'm not saying they don't count, far from it!

I'm saying there just aren't enough of them - in comparison with the worldwide market of 1/120th scale modellers.

Cheers,

John.

 

***I'm not against what you're saying in the snipped portion!

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But isn't that the point? Those on mainland Europe who run British OO on 16.5mm track as well as their HO continental stuff do so because they like the British prototype and because the difference in scales doesn't bother them. Same would surely apply between British 3mm/ft and continental 1:120. The ratio between HO and OO is 1:1.145. The ratio between 3mm/ft and TT is 1:1.186. Not very different. People with an interest in British stuff can buy and run 3mm/ft on 12mm track, even if their main interest is 1:120 Continental.

 

By the way, 3mm/ft on 12mm doesn't prevent you have correctly proportioned bodywork; look at the quality of the stuff being turned out in OO. The only non-scale thing is that the correctly proportioned bodywork runs on a somewhat narrower gauge chassis. On the contrary, 1:120 British running on correct scale track will likely force compromises in the bodywork; you're also likely to end up with very fine scale wheels which may not run on coarser TT track.

 

Cheers

Nigel

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Mike (Red Devil),

 

Your list can be expanded significantly:

 

CIWL overnight ferry cars

Ferry wagons of every ilk

WD locomotives - 2-8-0 and 2-10-0

ROD locomotives - Dean Goods, GCR 2-8-0, terrier

WW1 ambulance trains

Eurostar - and shortly Valero sets

 

Of course there is no reason why a UK manufacturer should adopt as his chosen scale/gauge the continental standard, but does it make business sense to deliberately cut off a part of the potential market? 

 

On the other hand, if he did adopt the continental standard, to what extent would he then exclude the existing 1:100 UK modellers? 

Well given that there is no rtr trade support today, at the extreme you could say that they have modelled without rtr and may well continue to do so in part irrespective of what standard is adopted.

 

As someone has already said, there are many modellers who are happy to run British TT alongside their continental scale models.  I suppose the reverse would be just as true if 1:120 were to be adopted.  Some would object of course, that is the nature of humans and change.

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Simon Kohler's original blog is here

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/simonsays/table-service/

 

For info.

 

Yes I had another read of that following my comments on the other thread, interestingly he comes down very strongly in favour of 1:120 scale echoing what i said about Triang getting it wrong first time round, I like the comment " For me it was time for the days of UK bastard scales to come to an end" I couldn't agree more!

 

One thing that worried me was his logic for introducing a "new" scale, which was that we've produced everything worth producing in OO therefore the only logic is to do a new scale and hope enough people buy into it... Most new modellers will look for what they know on the loco front and buy them, once they've got them they will then continue with that scale in the main... And as for space we already have N with a large and increasing number of RTR, I do wonder if he is trying to re-invent the wheel, is the advantage of TT (and I speak as  TT modeller) enough to justify other modellers switching scales on the off-chance the locos they want will come along in a few years time? 

 

I agree size wise it's a good scale, significantly smaller than HO/OO but easier to model in than N but with N's advantages of layout size... Trouble is N's already established and TT would be starting from scratch...

 

One thing i would say about the OP's use of Ebay.de. On that TT compares favourable with Z, but bear in mind it's been around since the 50s (Z in the 70s) and was the scale of choice in the old Eastern Bloc so I'd expect it to be of a reasonable size... But it's still a fraction of HO and 20% of N, so even with it's continued development in it's strongholds it's not made any real impression elsewhere other than for those of us who want something different...

 

Stats can be used to prove anything we want, remember...

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Dear Hobby,

I fully agree with you on everything, especially on Simon K's comment, brilliant! (hear, hear!)

As for ebay.de, I wanted to pull some stats from somewhere - it seemed an easy starting point. I too was surprised that TT didn't rate higher, in the future I may attempt to discover more reliable stats.

Cheers,

John.

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Simon Kohler's original blog is here

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/simonsays/table-service/

 

For info.

Thank you so much for this!

Believe it or not, I had never seen this before - it's a fascinating read and Simon makes an awful lot of sense. I certainly never knew that Hornby could have had the opportunity to buy Graham Farish.

Which leads me to an interesting point;

If no-one had bought G-F, it's likely that British N gauge would have died out in a commercial basis, just as British TT did when Tri-ang ceased production all those years ago.

Such a scenario just what, 15 or so years ago, could have seen massive opportunities for say, TT or even, Z gauge to take off in the UK!

Never mind, we're still stuck with the "Bastard Scales".

Cheers,

John.

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Thank you so much for this!

Believe it or not, I had never seen this before - it's a fascinating read and Simon makes an awful lot of sense. I certainly never knew that Hornby could have had the opportunity to buy Graham Farish.

Which leads me to an interesting point;

If no-one had bought G-F, it's likely that British N gauge would have died out in a commercial basis, just as British TT did when Tri-ang ceased production all those years ago.

Such a scenario just what, 15 or so years ago, could have seen massive opportunities for say, TT or even, Z gauge to take off in the UK!

Never mind, we're still stuck with the "Bastard Scales".

Cheers,

John.

 

 

Hi John,

 

I don't think it's appropriate to attach an epithet like that to any scales. It implies that there is something "wrong" with them when there actually is nothing "wrong" with them.

 

Presumably you are reacting to the old chestnut that there is something terribly wrong with 00 because standard gauge track isn't "to scale" and H0 is much better because the track gauge is "to scale".

 

However, unless you want to model to very exacting standards like P4, some significant compromises must be made regardless of which scale you happen to choose.

 

In the case of 00, the compromise is that the gauge is reduced from scale to accommodate the wider than scale wheel treads and deeper flanges that are essential to allowing equipment to negotiate track that bears little resemblance to prototype track in terms of the applied constructions standards. The nice thing about this approach is that all the components of the running gear can be positioned at or close to their positions scaled from the prototype. The consequence is that the wheel flanges are closer together and the track gauge might appear a bit narrow for standard gauge (although there are many ways to mitigate that).

 

In the case of H0 the compromise is that all the running gear has to be widened to accommodate the unavoidable wider treads and deeper flanges. The track components can be built to scale, but significant parts of the equipment that run on it are definitely not to scale. This is really obvious on steam outline locomotives. The wheels. cylinders and valve gear are sticking out too far relative to the superstructure which create a strange visual effect that IMO really spoils the appearance of the model. It's also obvious to me that there is something "not right" about any of the rolling stock for the same reason.

 

Regardless of which scale is chosen, making either one of the above compromises is unavoidable. Personally I prefer the method that does not alter the proportions of the equipment and I'm quite happy to live with the reduced track gauge (although I might play some games to minimize the effect on its overall appearance).

 

Despite that, I do think it's a great pity that UK models and mainland European models (00 and H0) are built to different scales. If I had superhuman powers I would arrange for both to gradually converge on a common scale of 1:82. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

 

Cheers!

Andy

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Hi Andy,

Thanks for your comments, you do make some good points, I don't deny that.

Actually, I was quoting Simon Kohler!

I do model 18.83mm gauge P4 from time to time, I have even tried P87 too but I'm one of those who likes to chop and change all the time, therefore I simply don't have enough time to convert all my stock, I'd need several lifetimes to manage that and I'm over half way through this one now.

I take your point about 1/82 scale or thereabouts, isn't that the Japanese version of H0 and what Fleischmann and Rivarossi used to work in?

I will open a new thread on the merits and demerits of H0 scale in due course, just a bit busy at the moment. If you'd like to preempt me, that's fine with me!

Cheers,

John.

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Hi John,

 

Presumably you are reacting to the old chestnut that there is something terribly wrong with 00 because standard gauge track isn't "to scale" and H0 is much better because the track gauge is "to scale".

 

However, unless you want to model to very exacting standards like P4, some significant compromises must be made regardless of which scale you happen to choose.

 

In the case of 00, the compromise is that the gauge is reduced from scale to accommodate the wider than scale wheel treads and deeper flanges that are essential to allowing equipment to negotiate track that bears little resemblance to prototype track in terms of the applied constructions standards. The nice thing about this approach is that all the components of the running gear can be positioned at or close to their positions scaled from the prototype. The consequence is that the wheel flanges are closer together and the track gauge might appear a bit narrow for standard gauge (although there are many ways to mitigate that).

 

In the case of H0 the compromise is that all the running gear has to be widened to accommodate the unavoidable wider treads and deeper flanges. The track components can be built to scale, but significant parts of the equipment that run on it are definitely not to scale. This is really obvious on steam outline locomotives. The wheels. cylinders and valve gear are sticking out too far relative to the superstructure which create a strange visual effect that IMO really spoils the appearance of the model. It's also obvious to me that there is something "not right" about any of the rolling stock for the same reason.

 

Cheers!

Andy

Thanks for pointing out that H0 is compromised too, just in a different place to 00.

So, considering the three recent threads about 1:100 and 1:120 would it be fair to sum up

- 1:100 (or 3mm) on 12mm is compromised like 00 in track gauge.

- 1:120 on 12mm or 1:100 on 14.2mm or so, would be compromised like H0 in cylinders etc (if it got used for steam and didn't remain a very modern prototype scale only) - unless the wheel standards were made a good deal finer than usual commercial ones (3mmFS equivalent, even P4 equivalent - ie near scale width) which would limit curvature etc.?

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