Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

That coach would cut very easily on the portrait, and you would be easily able to get the bolections around the windows as well. Is there any drawings for these style vehicles anywhere? I'll have to have a look in the archive, but I'm not sure I have got any. If you could draw them out I can cut them (silhouette studio can be downloaded for free and you don't need a cutter to draw with it) for you. Round topped windows become so easy!

 

Andy g

 

The lower paneling would seem to be on the same layer as the beading around the upper panel on the un-glazed guards door and the areas around and between the windows with, as Andy says, the waist and lower beading applied as ½ -round.  This style of 3-layer paneling was not uncommon, Drummond and Lambie era CR coaches used it, but with full paneling on the lower body side, not ½-round beading..

 

Jim

 

I agree, and the closer I look at this the odder it seems: 

 

• The door vents do appear to sit in recesses
• But, the corresponding blank on the unglazed guard's door appears to be a raised, not a recessed area.  The round-topped panel below is recessed.
• There is also such a raised panel above the twin round-topped recesses on the ducket
• As mentioned before, other areas along the top of the body are flat with no panelling
• These features mean that a two-tone livery with contrasting lining on raised beading would simply not work on such a coach.
• I agree that the waist seems to feature half-round beading, and I am concerned that I will not find anything fine enough to reproduce this.

I tried Silhouette and Inkscape and gave both up in despair. I got somewhere with the tutorials posted on RM (the official instructions appearing to be less than useful), but could not see how to bridge the gap between these simple exercises and producing a coach side to scale.

 

It is the way forward for coach construction and I must "endeavour to persevere".

 

Andy G, your Midland Diner is inspiring.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

While this coach is being analysed: what were the little bracket things on the end at waist height?

 

Are they square-socket lamp-irons? I think they must be, because I can't see any other irons, and there are handrails at the corners, presumably to hang onto while changing lamps.

 

Which brings up tail boards. Maybe the WNR is sufficiently conservative to be using some sort of board, rather than lamps "except during the hours of darkness, fog, or falling snow".

 

K

[uax6]

Do you happen to still have studio on your computer? If so I can email you one of my sides so that you can see the end result and be able to pick it apart.

 

That diner has been a pig. It's on its third set of sides!

 

Andy g

[Edwardian]

Do you happen to still have studio on your computer? If so I can email you one of my sides so that you can see the end result and be able to pick it apart.

 

That diner has been a pig. It's on its third set of sides!

 

Andy g

 

Yep, I have Silhouette Studio V3 sitting on my Desktop, just waiting for me to don my Brave Pants again!

 

Thank you.

[uax6]

Check your inbox! I've filled it again!

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Thank you!  I can see what you did with those images (I just need to learn how you did it!)

 

As for the GER 4-wheeler, that's perfect; the GER sold off a lot of 4-wheelers from around 1900, according to Kidner, 2 and 3-compt. brakes, 4-compt. 1sts, 5-compt. 3rds. 

 

The example you gave me is said to date from 1867, so, a first generation Johnson coach, a Brake Third at 21'8" over the body.  This may have originally been known as a brake composite (D501).

 

The GERS article has an outline drawing of a Third at 24'3" over the body.  The late 1860s coaches were: 5 compartment 3rd's (D400), 24ft 3ins long, four compartment 1st's, 24ft in length, and a small batch of 2nd's with 21ft bodies.

 

Though 10 years older than the Felixstowe coaches, they are the same basic design.

[uax6]

You can probably cut and paste a fair portion of the work I've done, and then re-size.

 

I'm quite surprised by the GER coaches as they are the only drawings I have, which is handy for you!

 

Now I expect a flurry of questions in a PM!

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Coaching stock.

 

Andy G - questions doubtless on their way, when I understand enough to formulate some!

 

So, I seem to be fast acquiring prototypes for branch trains that are suitable for a small independent/light railway, especially one sponsored by the GER, which seems to have gone in for a lot of that sort of thing, with an apparently inexhaustible optimism that I cannot but admire.

 

I have to establish routes/sources of traffic for all 3, and one will have to be a tramway!

 

Then there are the 'mainline' services, for which some longer and more modern 4-wheelers would be appropriate.  Adapted Ratio kits will be great for representing that fairly universal 1890s onwards panel style, and will look good in the WNR's green and cream livery.  

 

A mention ought to be made of the original coaching stock, as traces of this will remain as part of the layout's 'archaeology'. Wright coaches from the late 1850s were the original coaches and were bought new.  The Colne Valley & Halstead had some Joseph Wright 18'6" Thirds c. 1860 and there are drawings of Wright coaches used on the Isle of Wight.  On the WNR, by c.1905, the Wright coaches had been withdrawn from passenger service but are mentioned because they can crop up as grounded bodies or as running converted to passenger brake vans, or in 'departmental' use.

 

This leaves the 3 'branch sets'

• GER designed set supplied new in the 1870s, built by Gloucester Wagon Company, based upon the Felixstowe Railway & Pier Company stock of 1877.   I should think 2 Brake Thirds, Third and First/Second Compo. These would be in an all-over green WNR livery.  Ideally I need a bit more information than the brief note and single photo in Kidner. 

 

• Ex-GER 4-wheeled stock.  These will be first-generation Johnson coaches of c.1867 and will have an essentially similar appearance to the Felixstowe set, with round-topped windows. The rationale is that the GER disposed of large numbers of these from 1900 to various minor railways and it seems logical to me that the WNR would be offered this chance to supplement its fleet.   The potential coaches are 21'8" 2 or 3-compt. Brake Thirds (D501), 24ft 3ins 5-compt. Thirds (D400), 24' 4-compt. Firsts, all of which featured in the GER disposals, according to Kidner.  Second class accommodation could be introduced to the First or to a Brake Third.    Of course, I can just use some of these as coaches to supplement the Felixstowe set, but it is tempting to consider a second set.  I think that they will remain in GER livery, probably a painted brown, rather than a varnish only finish, given the age of the coaches.

.

• Tramway set.  If I ever model the W&U, I will probably have all the stock I need thanks to the WNR.  The most basic W&U passenger service seems to have been made up of 1 bogie tramcar, 1 4-wheel tramcar and the very un-tram-like brake van.  To this I would add one of the Kelvedon & Tollesbury conversions of GER 6-wheel stock, vestibuled and with smaller wheels, giving it a rather tramcar appearance.   No doubt Castle Aching would benefit from a couple of GER 22' Sundry vans, which would be essential for fruit traffic on the W&U.  G15 and C53 are essential, of course.

There is a nice logic to all of these choices, as they are all appropriate to minor lines and all have GER associations.

 

Initial motive power for these services would be the T7-derived 0-4-2T, a Fox Walker 0-6-0ST (as used on a couple of MGN constituents), and a C53 (J70) for the tram-stock. 

 

Not counting a WNR 'mainline' set, WNR Wright Brake Van, horse box, carriage truck or any GER, GNR, MR, MGN passenger stock, these 3 branch trains would require 12 vehicles (4 each), of which I presently have 2  in the form of D&S W&U coaches.  So, without mastery of the Silhouette software and a cutter in due course, life looks a bit daunting. 

 

If I can work out how to make one, a Beyer Peacock Not-an-Ilfracombe-Goods 0-6-0 intermediate with 4-wheel tender would be good for the 'mainline' set with a nice sort of old engine/newish stock imbalance.  The Sharp Stewart 0-6-0T can take the branch goods. 

[ChrisN]

Not wishing to be a pain but there is no accommodation for Second Class passengers.  Although some companies, including the Cambrian, tried to get rid of it in the 1890s, it had to be re-instated as the big companies still had it and it was not finally abolished until 1912, I think.  Second Class compartments were downgraded to thirds so it would be possible for a 1st/3rd to be a 1st/2nd, or depending on the compartment numbers and how keen you were to discourage Second Class a tri-composite.  This should not change your coaches or the number of them, just what it has on the doors.

[Edwardian]

Chris, thanks.  I may have grasped the wrong end of your stick, but there is 2nd class accommodation mentioned in my last post.  The WNR is in many ways old-fashioned, and it has no wish to abolish Second Class accommodation.

 

The 1870s Felixstowe coaches will include a 1st/2nd composite, as stated, and I anticipate that the 1890s 'mainline' set will also have such a coach, though it will probably be a 5-coach set, so the choice will probably be between a 1s/2nd compo and 2 all 3rds and a 1st, a 2nd and a single 3rd.  I would have thought the former. Given their dates of construction, it would be quite correct to expect the stock to have been built with provision for second class passengers.  

 

The GER built relatively few coaches in the late '60s and early '70s, but the early Johnson coaches apparently included a small number of 2nds.  These are not counted by Kidner as among the disposals made at the turn of the Century. Not all GE coaches seem to have increased the compartment width of the ascending classes.  I have no difficulty with the WNR, say rendering a 2 or 3-compt brake Third into a Brake (probably 'Break' knowing the WNR) Second or 2nd/3rd composite by adding token upholstery, or, say, by demoting the 2 outer compartments of the 1st.  

 

Thanks to Andy G, I have a drawing and notes relating to 2 1867 GE 'Brake Thirds' supplied to the, then, Rother Valley in 1901.   One is a 2-compt. and the other a 3. Perfect.  I have an outline drawing of a 5-compt. Third and so the hardest bit will be to create a 1st class version to the known body length.

 

According to John Watling's online article on the GERS site, "The first Johnson carriage was a type new to the GER but destined to become very common indeed, the 'brake composite' best known to us today as the brake 3rd. They were to the odd length of 21ft 8ins, a dimension later increased to 22ft 8ins (D501)".  So it would seem that more than one class was originally accommodated in these carriages.  Of course, as elderly coaches the GER may have already down-graded them to Brake Thirds at some point prior to disposal.

 

If it turned out that, at some point prior to 1905, the WNR had dispensed with Second Class, I cannot see it rushing to repaint the designations on the compartment doors.    

Edited May 25, 2016 by Edwardian

[BG John]

Thanks to Andy G, I have a drawing and notes relating to 2 1867 GE 'Brake Thirds' supplied to the, then, Rother Valley in 1901.   One is a 2-compt. and the other a 3. Perfect.  I have an outline drawing of a 5-compt. Third and so the hardest bit will be to create a 1st class version to the known body length. 

Would I be pushing my luck to ask if these are available to a modeller of the RVR in 7mm? Or at least the RVR just after it changed its name, so I can have a mix of RVR & K&ESR livered stock.

[Edwardian]

Would I be pushing my luck to ask if these are available to a modeller of the RVR in 7mm? Or at least the RVR just after it changed its name, so I can have a mix of RVR & K&ESR livered stock.

 

John,

 

They are 4mm scale MRC drawings, though whether Andy's scan will print out full size I don't yet know.  One was modified 1903 and again 1910 (to a full brake), and t'other modified in 1903  and disposed of the Shropshire & Montgommery in 1916.

 

No idea if this fits with your dates.

 

I am sure Andy G will not mind if I pass these on.  I will send you a PM with them.

 

James

 

EDIT, file size too big for a PM.  PM me with your email address if you want me to send them.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Edwardian

[BG John]

Thanks James. My date is 1905ish.

[ChrisN]

James,

I am sorry I completely missed the mention of Second Class.  It is what comes of reading between doing other things with the wrong set of glasses/eyes.

 

A 5 compartment third should translate into a four compartment first, or 1st/2nd composite.

[corneliuslundie]

I hope these carriages are not too much of a red herring. They were built in 4mm from a drawing published a good many years after the event which only had a smallish side view of the train, so there is a fair amount of guesswork.

They were built for the Rhymney Railway in 1858 by Williams of Goswell Road, and apparently similar to carriages he supplied at the same to to the GNR.

Jonathan

 

[corneliuslundie]

I managed to duplicate the last post, so just to say that these vehicles have the decided advantage of square cornered panelling, so no need for any fancy machinery. I was thinking of grounded bodies rather than vehicles in revenue service.

Jonathan

Edited May 25, 2016 by corneliuslundie

[Edwardian]

these carriages

RR carriages small.JPG

 

It might be a glitch at my end, but your jpg does not appear to show in your post. I fear the Gremlins have sabotaged your post, rendering it more intriguing but much less informative than you doubtless intended!

[Edwardian]

The Cowes & Newport Railway opened in 1862.  By 1864 it was recorded as possessing 4 coaches from Joseph Wright.  These appear to have been 25'10" over the body.  As such, they are a little longer than the Wright coaches of circa 1860 that Kidner has the CV&HR acquire (18'6"), but I have drawings of the former and not of the latter. 

 

As mentioned above, the thought is to have one converted to a full brake and still running as such in 1905.  All over green livery would seem appropriate.  Of the others, I thought that one could be grounded and used as the enginemen's bothy at castle Aching?

 

They have the virtue of square-cornered beading and only a very slight tumblehome, so they might be the ones to start on!

[teaky]

The Cowes & Newport Railway opened in 1862.  By 1864 it was recorded as possessing 4 coaches from Joseph Wright.  These appear to have been 25'10" over the body.  As such, they are a little longer than the Wright coaches of circa 1860 that Kidner has the CV&HR acquire (18'6"), but I have drawings of the former and not of the latter. 

 

As mentioned above, the thought is to have one converted to a full brake and still running as such in 1905.  All over green livery would seem appropriate.  Of the others, I thought that one could be grounded and used as the enginemen's bothy at castle Aching?

 

They have the virtue of square-cornered beading and only a very slight tumblehome, so they might be the ones to start on!

 

You are probably looking at finer detail but the drawing reminds me of the Bachmann (USA) Thomas coaches.

 

 

 

[JCL]

I hope these carriages are not too much of a red herring. They were built in 4mm from a drawing published a good many years after the event which only had a smallish side view of the train, so there is a fair amount of guesswork.

They were built for the Rhymney Railway in 1858 by Williams of Goswell Road, and apparently similar to carriages he supplied at the same to to the GNR.

Jonathan

RR carriages small.JPG

 

Hi Jonathon,

 

Interestingly I could see the photos on my iPad, but not on my Firefox browser in Windows. I think this calls for divine intervention. Or at least a quick message to Andy Y.

 

The coaches were a brown/salmon colour. Interesting that they were also built for the GNR, can you tell me where you found that information?

 

cheers

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

You are probably looking at finer detail but the drawing reminds me of the Bachmann (USA) Thomas coaches.

 

 

 

emily.jpg

 

No, I am a great fan of using these Bachmann products where possible.  The Junior and Thomas range locos run sweet as the proverbial nuts (in marked contrast to the Hornby equivalents), and I like the idea of the Emily coaches, the Stroudley-esque 4-wheelers and Henrietta as the basis for detailing and conversion.

 

Had I ( a ) the budget and ( b ) a sympathetic correspondent Stateside, I'd order a WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF as I believe that say over there!

 

 

Hi Jonathon,

 

Interestingly I could see the photos on my iPad, but not on my Firefox browser in Windows. I think this calls for divine intervention. Or at least a quick message to Andy Y.

 

The coaches were a brown/salmon colour. Interesting that they were also built for the GNR, can you tell me where you found that information?

 

cheers

 

Jason

 

The plot thickens! 

 

Am on boggo-refuse to go Chrome - refuse to upgrade - Windows Explorer, and I can't see the picture!

Edited May 25, 2016 by Edwardian

[Shadow]

Think it may be a link to this thread, post 7

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96937-early-coach-brakes/

Edited May 25, 2016 by Shadow

[Edwardian]

Think it may be a link to this thread, post 7

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96937-early-coach-brakes/

 

Oh, those do look good

[wagonman]

The panelling arrangement is rather similar to that of the early coaches for the SMAR/MSWJR which were built by the Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon in Birmingham except that (some of) the upper panels were recessed. Can the Silhouette cut grooves? if so the lower beading could be represented by a groove filled with round rod of a suitable diameter – I'll let you work that out! More choices than with half-round.

 

It is theoretically possible to apply a two-colour livery with contrasting  'beading' on totally flush sided carriages as the GWR did precisely that between 1922-27. Come to think of it, Hornby also did it on their mainline clerestory coaches, unfortunately. Right pain in the proverbial though...

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

PS this was reference back to the Felixstowe discussion. I can't keep up with the pace of this thread!

Edited May 25, 2016 by wagonman

[Northroader]

Just testing, squire, with all this talk of GER coaches did 6wheelers, (gaslit Holden sort of thing), figure in your plans? Pm me with address if you're interested in 4mm drawings.