Castle Aching

[Skinnylinny]

I'll have to look at them again, but I am assuming that I use the chassis, but just substitute the card W irons and springs/axle boxes for etched/cast ones. So, I would use the sole bars, headstocks etc supplied.

 

Oh, that reminds me, I need to source something for the gas tanks - that had quite slipped my mind - a pair for 3 of the coaches, the full brake remains oil-lit. 

You might struggle with that I'm afraid - the chassis for the Stroudley kits is made up of three layers of 1mm card stacked to make a solid 3mm box, with cutouts for the wheels - this was necessary to provide enough support for the card W irons and create a solid, rigid chassis from card. There are no solebars to speak of. If you're looking at using etched W irons etc, you will need to create a thin floor for under the coach from plasticard, brass or similar. I can certainly give you dimensions for this, although these can also be worked out from the body parts. I don't know about the height of the W irons you have either, but I might be able to suggest modifications (cutouts) to the chassis parts to allow you to use etched W irons as an alternative?

Edited May 23, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Edwardian]

You might struggle with that I'm afraid - the chassis for the Stroudley kits is made up of three layers of 1mm card stacked to make a solid 3mm box, with cutouts for the wheels - this was necessary to provide enough support for the card W irons and create a solid, rigid chassis from card. There are no solebars to speak of. If you're looking at using etched W irons etc, you will need to create a thin floor for under the coach from plasticard, brass or similar. I can certainly give you dimensions for this, although these can also be worked out from the body parts. I don't know about the height of the W irons you have either, but I might be able to suggest modifications (cutouts) to the chassis parts to allow you to use etched W irons as an alternative?

 

Thanks, Linny.  In which case it would seem sensible to build it as you have designed it.  I don't have to do it with etched irons.

 

The point is that I will be set up to building chassis with etched W irons, so body only kits should not be a problem.

[Skinnylinny]

I've dropped you a quick PM with a few more thoughts - It ought to be possible to fit them to the Stroudleys, but I can certainly design future kits to take either card or brass bits.

[Nearholmer]

I hate to be a pest, but could someone answer my question in 9910.

 

Rue d'etropal makes a 3D printed set of 6W motor train coaches, but I've still got this nagging feeling that they were converted to 4W when they became motor trains.

[Edwardian]

I hate to be a pest, but could someone answer my question in 9910.

 

Rue d'etropal makes a 3D printed set of 6W motor train coaches, but I've still got this nagging feeling that they were converted to 4W when they became motor trains.

 

I think you have in mind the conversions of old LCDR coaches made in 1924.  These were new conversions (2 sets), not modifications to any of the SE&CR conversions, and they went to the Isle of Wight.

 

The ones I'm talking about were converted by the SE&CR - probably c.1913 - from 6-wheel LCDR coaches and as such they remained.

 

EDIT: It seems I have drawings of these, too, and it appears they had gangway connections.  Personally I prefer the death defying leaps the GER expected when it converted 6-wheelers to tram car, but each to his own....

 

PPS: Reference your picture of the bogie set at Greenwich Park (post #9895 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107713-castle-aching/?p=3174220), the loco is No.325 and the date June 1912.

 

Thinking about it, I'd definitely subscribe to a set were Linny minded to make these.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Thanks. Yes, I probably was getting mixed-up with SR conversions.

 

A big diversion for CA, but while we are on it, services that used these SECR conversions?

 

Looking at the Bluebell history of one of its Ps, I was surprised by how many routes they worked on, all briefly.

 

Ash-Aldershot; Beckenham Jc - Norwood Jc; Victoria -St Paul’s; Greenwich Park; isle of Grain; Westerham; Sevenoaks - Otford.

 

Were there more?

[Edwardian]

Thanks. Yes, I probably was getting mixed-up with SR conversions.

 

A big diversion for CA, but while we are on it, services that used these SECR conversions?

 

Looking at the Bluebell history of one of its Ps, I was surprised by how many routes they worked on, all briefly.

 

Ash-Aldershot; Beckenham Jc - Norwood Jc; Victoria -St Paul’s; Greenwich Park; isle of Grain; Westerham; Sevenoaks - Otford.

 

Were there more?

 

1914 Allocations:

 

Both bogie sets - Greenwich Park

 

6-wheel 3-sets: Brixton-Moorgate (2 sets, employed one either side of an 0-4-4T, R or R1); St Paul's-Victoria (1 set); Otford-Sevenoaks (1 set); Dover Priory-Canterbury East (1 set); Swanley Junc.-Gravesend West St. (1 set); Birchington-Ramsgate (1 set).

 

They were also used on Aldershot-Ash

 

Aside for the Brixton-Moorgate service, these services all seem to have been in the hands of Ps.

 

The Brixton-Moorgate sets and R tanks were soon transferred to other services: Snow Hill-Crystal Palace and Gravesend Central-Port Victoria. 

 

It is thought that a set may have been trialled on the Westerham branch (which is my excuse) and on the Hawkhurst branch.

 

In late 1915/early 1916, a set was trialled on the Bexhill West line.

 

The 3-sets varied.  The King drawings are of one of the more common formations.  There were a few ex-SER coaches used.

[Northroader]

Lord help us, I did post about LCDR push pull conversions a while back, with drawings. Which thread was it ? Who did I do it for? Why am I trying to remember after two pints of Old Rosie cloudy cider (7.8%) at lunch time. Help! (back when my brain clears)

[Nearholmer]

The Dover to Canterbury one I would never have guessed, but thinking about it there was a coal rush going on along that section at the time, with, I think, one or two extra stations added as a result, so there must have been quite a lot of local traffic.

[Compound2632]

Happy Birthday.

[Edwardian]

Lord help us, I did post about LCDR push pull conversions a while back, with drawings. Which thread was it ? Who did I do it for? Why am I trying to remember after two pints of Old Rosie cloudy cider (7.8%) at lunch time. Help! (back when my brain clears)

 

There was another topic, and I've sent plans to a couple of people here, too!

 

My copy of King is slightly crinkly, because the Memsahib dropped it in the bath.

 

It has shiny paper, so survived, and flattens well enough for photocopies and scans!

[Nearholmer]

Why was she reading carriage diagrams in the bath?

[Edwardian]

Why was she reading carriage diagrams in the bath?

 

One of the insoluble mysteries of life

[Compound2632]

Shiny paper = insoluble. Fortunate!

[Hroth]

Why was she reading carriage diagrams in the bath?

As an inveterate reader, I'll admit to reading anything while doing something essentially non-productive, ie eating breakfast, watching the TV, listening to the radio, in the bath, on.....  Well you get my point! 

 

So I can understand why the Mem might have a book of carriage diagrams in the bathroom.  

[Northroader]

I’ve found it! (God, I’m thirsty) post 1155.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107470-oak-hill-lbscr-secr-1905ish/page-47&do=findComment&comment=2862241

Edit more prominence needed: LCDR PUSH PULL COACHES.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Northroader

[St Enodoc]

Interesting - looks like Hattons have forgotten the red lining inside the wheel tyres, while the Bluebell have forgotten to line the wheel centres! 

 

Can't trust the prototype to get it right...... 

Standing up for Bluebell, I would point out that 753 (formerly Pride of Sussex) lives not at the Bluebell but the K&ESR, which is where the photo was taken:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/linda_chen/4593319302

[Nearholmer]

Well, I think that untangling all that, what it says is that three coach, six wheeler sets remained in use until 1929, which fits with something else i’ve Read, which is that the last six wheelers came out of service with the Sevenoaks electrification. They would have been on the Otford shuttle.

 

So, I already have a coarse approximation of this train, but run it with a Terrier.

 

Northroader needs a drink. I need a P.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Nearholmer

[St Enodoc]

Well, I think that untangling all that, what it says is that three coach, six wheeler sets remained in use until 1929, which fits with something else i’ve Read, which is that the last six wheelers came out of service with the Sevenoaks electrification. They would have been on the Otford shuttle.

 

So, I already have a coarse approximation of this train, but run it with a Terrier.

 

Northroader needs a drink. I need a P.

"I'll have a P please Bob".

[Edwardian]

I hate to be a pest, but could someone answer my question in 9910.

 

Rue d'etropal makes a 3D printed set of 6W motor train coaches, but I've still got this nagging feeling that they were converted to 4W when they became motor trains.

 

I have seen these, but Rue d'etropal coaches are only available in WSF.  I don't find that an acceptable quality of material for items such as loco and coach bodies.  It needs an awful lot of sanding and filling.  That said, with a lot of work you can seem to get a smooth finish, a chap in the latest RM has done so with an ex-LNWR Oerlikon set, but I note that these coaches are not panelled, and here's the rub, as it were;  achieving an acceptable finish on a WSF coach side replete with recessing and beading sounds like the Devil's own nightmare  to me.

 

And then there is the price, IIRC some £42 per coach.  You could doubtless get Worsley Works to knock up sides and ends in brass for less.  The forthcoming brass GER 4-wheel bodies will only by £25 each.  Compare Rue d'etropal's prices with the resin printed 57' toplight a RMWebber had produced. This was far, far smoother in finish, and he got it done for £30.  This is not commercially available, so a more meaningful comparison would be Mike Trice's flat-pack3D printed GNR 6-wheelers; a far more convincing surface, requiring much less finishing than WSF: https://www.shapeways.com/product/PWCYCAZW6/gnr-dia-245-third-6-wheel-carriage-basic-kit?optionId=64889840.  Printed in Smooth Fine Detail Plastic for less than Rue d'etropal's WSF.

 

As you know, I tread warily with 3D print; it can produce some things extremely well, but only certain products to date have, to my mind, represented an acceptable balance between price and finish.

 

Now, compare the options of an acceptable quality in 3D print or the traditional medium of etched brass on the one hand with the laminated laser-cut kits Linny is producing on the other.  I find his way of doing things the most persuasive of all! 

 

Who'd have thought?  Cardboard, the best all round solution after all!

Edited May 24, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Confirms my own prejudices.

 

Card, or for the larger scales 0.8mm plywood, are exceedingly good materials, and now that we have the tech to cut "doilies" of beading, I think better than brass for 7mm/ft and above, and probably 4mm/ft and above.

 

I've got a set of etches for 15mm/ft Irish NG bogie coaches that I commissioned from Worsley in a fit of despondency after cutting out about five million windows on two other bogie coaches, and, sad and wasteful to say, the etches have gone unassembled for a decade, because I was deeply underwhelmed by the very shallow relief on the beading. It is well below scale depth, and would be all but invisible once painted.

 

Now, that isn't a criticism of Mr Doherty of Worsley, I asked him to make them! It is an observation of suitability or otherwise of technique for a particular application, and the same applies to 3D printing.

[sem34090]

As you will, mostly, know I am engaged in producing 3D prints for railway modelling use.

 

I have, to date, used WSF as (although requiring much work) it was the cheapest option available to me at the time, indeed James is able to comment as he has seen the quality of a WSF print.

 

When I first started on this venture, I intended to create a coach kit range inspired by PC models, with a 3D Printed 'former' covered with printed sides. I soon realised that the cost of the former, even before the addition of printed sides was far from cheap, so moved to locomotive bodies.

 

Having seen the results, and let it be said - price, of Linny's kits I must say that I think Laser-cut card is a far more suitable means of making coaches than 3D printing. I, unlike (I think- I may be wrong) Simon (Rue D'etropal) do not see 3D printing as the 'miracle solution' for modellers, but it is useful for some applications. Linny's coaches highlight another modern means that is also useful for some applications and not others. Also unlike Simon I never intended to only offer my models in WSF, as I know some prefer FUD and finer materials.

 

In the future, however, I will not be using shapeways, and maybe not even my currently used i.materialise. The answer can be found in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130385-3d-printed-gwr-coaches-resin-print-from-3d-hubs/page-4

The toplight shown above was produced for (ISTR) around £30 by 3D Hubs in China (https://www.3dhubs.com/3d-printing) and the quality and finish of that (4mm scale) print is more than acceptable to me. As I say, coaches are not the best things to 3D print, but £30 is acceptable. Locos are generally shorter than toplights, so the cost looks to be lower than WSF and the quality is evidently much, much, higher. I will probably use this material in the future.

[Northroader]

The one good thing about LCDR coaches is that the mouldings over the panelling is nice plain strip, without any rounded corners, so it can be represented much easier with plastikard strip. I suppose repetitive window cutting on plastic sheet could be solved by using punches, although so far I haven’t tried that. The AnD “aids to modelling” kits are quite good as layers of plastic sheet which have everything very nearly cut out (laser?) Some of the 3D folks have the approach that as it can be made as a single piece, it should be done so, ensuring an exact assembly, even if this makes it more bulky, and possibly more dearer? Others are producing parts which are more indentifiable as kit assembly jobs, which would be my own preference.

[Edwardian]

As you will, mostly, know I am engaged in producing 3D prints for railway modelling use.

 

I have, to date, used WSF as (although requiring much work) it was the cheapest option available to me at the time, indeed James is able to comment as he has seen the quality of a WSF print.

 

When I first started on this venture, I intended to create a coach kit range inspired by PC models, with a 3D Printed 'former' covered with printed sides. I soon realised that the cost of the former, even before the addition of printed sides was far from cheap, so moved to locomotive bodies.

 

Having seen the results, and let it be said - price, of Linny's kits I must say that I think Laser-cut card is a far more suitable means of making coaches than 3D printing. I, unlike (I think- I may be wrong) Simon (Rue D'etropal) do not see 3D printing as the 'miracle solution' for modellers, but it is useful for some applications. Linny's coaches highlight another modern means that is also useful for some applications and not others. Also unlike Simon I never intended to only offer my models in WSF, as I know some prefer FUD and finer materials.

 

In the future, however, I will not be using shapeways, and maybe not even my currently used i.materialise. The answer can be found in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130385-3d-printed-gwr-coaches-resin-print-from-3d-hubs/page-4

The toplight shown above was produced for (ISTR) around £30 by 3D Hubs in China (https://www.3dhubs.com/3d-printing) and the quality and finish of that (4mm scale) print is more than acceptable to me. As I say, coaches are not the best things to 3D print, but £30 is acceptable. Locos are generally shorter than toplights, so the cost looks to be lower than WSF and the quality is evidently much, much, higher. I will probably use this material in the future.

 

Yes, this is the toplight example to which I referred.

 

I have reached a few conclusions:

 

- So far as I can tell, the poured resin available from Immaterialise is different from the better finishes available on Shapeways (FUD and FXD).  It looks different to me.  The example I have in mind is the G6 you designed in the version printed for Linny.  Looked very smooth.  I think this is worth further consideration.

 

- FUD is acceptable.  It does need some finishing, in my view.  Those Sharp tenders from Knuckles are FUD. I think that even the smoother sides would benefit from some rubbing down and, perhaps, filler spray, but inside the rivetting round the edges, it's a clear space to work on.  The only poor area is the tender rear. No joke, I tell you, having a tender rear.  

 

- FUD is relatively brittle, but glues easily.  With the care with which all models, not least RTR ones these days, must be handled, I don't think it's a significant concern.

 

- FUD is, however, quite pricey on Shapeways.  I am having to pace myself!  The effect of this is, I suggest (1) For a loco, it is no cheaper than a traditional whitemetal kit or,even, a brass one.  The 3D print requires less construction but more finishing.  Still a reasonable amount of cost, and effort involved.  Skill?  Well, wheeling, motorising, detailing, painting and lining will be no different with a 3D print.  (2) It tends to be uneconomical for coaches.

 

- FXD I haven't tried, as it's even more expensive than FUD!

 

- Mike Trice has worked out that a coach on Shapeways prints better and is cheaper if you print in as a flat pack coach - as I type, I note Northroader's comments, with which I agree.  Mike's test shots show the coach without any rubbing down.  It's not perfect, but a great improvement.  Again, like Knuckles's locomotives, it would not take much sanding and filling to get smooth. I'll need to try it, but I think it's a practical and affordable solution.  On the other hand, Diagram 3D produce laser-cut sides for similar GNR coaches.  Like Linny's, you have to laminate them.    

 

- The chap with the toplights has done well.  I note, though, cautionary tales are posted in his topic about 3D Hubs.  If a guy in China rips off your design, they're ain't a lot you can do about it. With the right partner, one might do well, but guaranteeing regular and timely supply, even for cottage industry quantities might prove tricky.

 

- Finally, regarding the toplight, look at the GWR grab handles.  Not bad. They are fully rounded, with daylight behind them. Overscale, I'd say, but better than the moulded-on versions from Ratio kits and more convincing than etched brass ones, which are, of course, flat.  Only with a lost wax cast component are you likely to achieve similar.

 

Much food for thought here.

[Londontram]

Going off at a tangent (which this thread seems to excel at) this is at least a Norfolk picture and a railway one too.

Hall qua at Great Yarmouth with a coaster tied up along side. The interesting thing I thought was the three wagons seem to be Midland railway box vans.

Perhaps worked over the M&GN to Yarmouth beach station yard then transfers by the link line that passes through the famous hole in the wall by the White Swan inn to the junction infront of the bridge approch to Yarmouth Vauxhall station and brought onto the qua from there

Edited May 28, 2018 by Londontram