Invernevis based on Fort William in N Gauge

[David41283]

Hi everyone,

 

I am starting to plan a new layout, it is unlikely that any wood will be harmed until August at the earliest. So far the only investment I have made in this project is a sketch pad in which I am starting to draw scale elevations of buildings, list suitable rolling stock and make notes.

 

I am aware that the Scottish BLT is rapidly becoming my generation's version of the GWR BLT cliché, but I reckon this is inevitable as those of us who were trainspotters as kids in the early 80's look for nostalgic prototypes, in the same way as the previous generation of modellers looked to the WR branchline for the same fix.

 

My thoughts at this early stage are:

 

• Largely based upon the old Fort William station which closed in 1975.
• I will add an extra siding on the "loch side" with a freight unloading platform and end loading dock. Maybe also some platform mounted fuel tanks for Mallaig style fuel deliveries.
• No run round facilities - like the prototype at FW. Trains will be shunt released by the pilot - a blue class 20 with an Eastfield terrier on the bonnet.
• The scenic board will be 4ft x 1ft to fit in my allocated storage space at home. This will comfortably allow 4 coach trains with a diesel loco which are less than 2 1/2 feet long in N gauge.
• I will use 9mm finescale "FiNetrack" throughout the scenic section. I have contemplated building by own in copperclad, but feel this is a sensible compromise.
• I may well commission professionally built base boards. I feel carpentry is my weakest area when layout building. I only have my garden as a workshop, a basic folding saw-bench to work on and basic DIY hand tools, while this is fine to knock-up a crude single board. I don't think I have the time, skill, tools or equipment to produce two boards with folding legs, which align and are level to a good enough standard.

I have done loads of reading and research, I have notes on most areas, but I have a couple of very specific questions. Please let me know if you can help.

 

1. In all the photos of the mixed trains synonymous with the lines around Inverness in the 80's the wagons seem to be marshalled in the same way. The oil tanks to Mallaig always appear to be at the rear of the train behind the coaches. The single freightliner flat which ran between Aberdeen and Wick always seems to be between the loco and coaches at the front of the train. Was this always the case, or are all the photos I've found just coincidentally of trains heading in the same direction?

 

2. Does anyone have any information about the interior or rail-facing sides of the old Fort William Station building. I have found enough good photos of the loch side and front with the arches and turret to begin making a model, but I cannot find any decent photos of the view into the building from the platforms.

 

Thanks

 

David 

Edited July 7, 2016 by David41283

[luckymucklebackit]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fort_william/

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fort_william/index13.shtml

 

Jim

[David41283]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fort_william/

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/fort_william/index13.shtml

 

Jim

 

Thanks Jim,

 

That is one of my favourite sites, I have regularly lost hours looking through the disused stations archive!

 

The picture is one of the only ones I've seen which shows anything of the inside of the station building. I've got a closer one of a class 27 at the buffers in the early 70's but there appear to be huge poster-boards behind the buffers which obscure the building itself.

 

I am thinking at this point that if I model the station canopies and the posters behind the buffers no-one will be able to see the back of the station building anyway, so I could get away with a reasonable estimate.

 

Cheers

 

David

[David41283]

Hi all,

 

I have had a most useful day in terms of this project!

 

I ordered a copy of this book late last week, and the postman duly delivered this afternoon.

 

 

Having chosen this book simply as it was the cheaper of the two volumes Ian Futers has written on Scottish Layouts I was absolutely delighted to discover the first chapter is all about his 7mm model of the station, and I couldn't believe my good fortune as the book includes full scale drawings of the station building in 2mm scale.

 

Pleasingly the scale drawings (from the BR Offices in Glasgow no less) weren't a million miles away from my own attempts using the traditional methods of counting bricks and scaling up from cars and trains in photos.

 

Thanks to everyone who has sent me PM's. The power of RMweb and the generosity of spirit shown by the members is amazing at times.

 

It's going to get harder and harder to resist starting this layout in the flesh until autumn all the time now!

 

cheers

 

David

 

 

 

 

[TomJ]

I am far from a wagon or coaching expert -  this is all what I have gleaned from those who know far more than me.

Generally in a mixed train the wagons were placed behind the coaches - as was the case with the Mallaig tanks. There are photos from the 70s of mineral wagons being used as a barrier between the coaches and hazardous oil wagons - not sure why this changed in the 80s. The freightliner was an exception as they were specially fitted with through pipes, waht with the wagons being air braked and the coaches (Mk1s) vac braked. So the far north line used a handful of specially adapted freightliner flats.

 

Look forward to seeing it come together - an N gauge small scottish seaside terminus is one of my 'one day' daydreams!

[David41283]

Hi everyone,

 

I have started making a rough card model of the station building, using the scale drawings in the book. However I think I have discovered an error with the drawings.

 

Here is a photo of the "Loch side" of the station.

 

(photo by Robert Bridger, from Disused Stations website)

 

This clearly shows the roof meeting the side wall, and that the side wall is level with the Loch side of the "turret". There is no apparent change in pitch of the roof, or any flat roof section over the offices on this side.

 

This is the scale drawing of the station from Ian Futers book.

 

 

Using the side elevations I have marked the top of the side wall point A (blue). Unless I am missing something, the pitch of the roof (red line) is clearly wrong. I am not sure if they have either drawn the middle bit of the station too narrow, therefore increasing the pitch of the roof, or simply just drawn the roof at the wrong angle.

 

Here is a photo of the front of the building for comparison

 

Photo from Ian Futers Book.

 

I am sure some people who knew the station better than I do will be able to give some pointers.

 

Cheers

 

David

[Zomboid]

I think the roof on the drawing is to steep. Look at the RHS as well, the drawing shows it finishing below the adjacent roof whilst the photo shows it's clearly higher. And on the LHS it's about level with the top of the arched windows, but the drawing shows it finishing level with the bottom of the curved bit.

[Signaller69]

Looks an interesting project! I have fond memories of Fort William in the mid 80s, sadly too late to have known the old station.

 

Regarding the building, photos can be deceptive, looking closely at the photo of the class 29 I think the side wall is actually inset from the tower wall for 2 reasons; firstly the tower has corner stones where the 2 appear to meet; secondly at the far end the platform canopy sticks out a fair way from the side wall, whereas the tower is virtually next to the running line (which is dead straight).

 

Also the sloping roof does not appear to overhang the side wall, rather it appears to sit behind it, either sloping to a gutter inside the wall where they meet (what appears to be a cast drainage box and downspout can be seen by where the side wall and tower appear to meet), or with a flat section between the top of the wall and the slope of the roof.

Comparing the angle of the apex between the station frontage photo and the drawing they look pretty similar, allowing for the slight distortion in the viewing angle of the photo.

Tracing up the line you have drawn on the plan it should be possible to work out the correct relationship of the side wall to the tower. I have a photo in an old Bradford Barton book which may show the walls relationship better, will look it up when home tomorrow.

 

Regards,

Martyn.

[Urthra]

I have never been there, but it looks to me as though the sloped roof is set back from the 'turret' wall by nearly the width of the line?

If you could find a reverse angle of that photo, that might be revealing.

 

For myself, what I like about the three Highland lines, is that they are mostly single track. It allows for a smaller space to be dominated by scenery, than a double or treble line such as we would find elsewhere.

[Pacific231G]

Hi everyone,

 

I have started making a rough card model of the station building, using the scale drawings in the book. However I think I have discovered an error with the drawings.

 

Here is a photo of the "Loch side" of the station.

 

Untitled.jpg

(photo by Robert Bridger, from Disused Stations website)

 

This clearly shows the roof meeting the side wall, and that the side wall is level with the Loch side of the "turret". There is no apparent change in pitch of the roof, or any flat roof section over the offices on this side.

 

This is the scale drawing of the station from Ian Futers book.

 

DSCF3460 (1024x768).jpg

 

Using the side elevations I have marked the top of the side wall point A (blue). Unless I am missing something, the pitch of the roof (red line) is clearly wrong. I am not sure if they have either drawn the middle bit of the station too narrow, therefore increasing the pitch of the roof, or simply just drawn the roof at the wrong angle.

 

Here is a photo of the front of the building for comparison

 

DSCF3461 (1024x768).jpg

Photo from Ian Futers Book.

 

I am sure some people who knew the station better than I do will be able to give some pointers.

 

Cheers

 

David

Hi David

I can't help with my own photos as any I did take back then are long gone and would in any case have been from ground level.  I've got some other angles in various photos but they're not my copyright so I'll PM them to you. Angles often do look a bit different from ground level than from square on so some of these may help as well as shownig the overall form of the roof from the other side.

[David41283]

Hi everyone,

 

Fascinating how different people can have different views of the same photo. Thanks for your input and PMs.

 

Interestingly Ian Futers 7mm scale model has the roof modelled differently to the drawings.The text states that he built his model based upon the drawings he found in the BR Archives in Glasgow, but the scale drawings in the book are drawn by the chap who regularly produces scale drawings for RM magazine.

 

I have been under the impression that the roof was as Ian Futers has modelled it, i.e. with the pitched roof going all the way down and ending in a gutter just behind the top of the side wall. not with a flat section each side as the drawing would imply.

 

Anyway, rather than debating someone else's model, I have spent the day making a card mock-up of the building in 2mm scale. 

 

The loch side and front.

 

The town side interior.

 

Looking from the platform towards John Menzies on the left.

 

As you can see this isn't particularly scientific, just multiple photocopies of the scale plans cut up and stuck to various off-cuts of card I had spare. I will probably add a few more details, if only as I am enjoying building it.

 

Given the uncertainty around the roof, I am very tempted to model this without the roof, but with a fully detailed interior. I will probably do the "final" version in plasticard, but this is proving a really interesting subject.

 

Cheers for all the interest.

 

David

 

 

 

 

[David41283]

Just to follow up my last post, I have enjoyed making this little mock-up, and I've probably taken it as far as I can now.

 

I have added a little more detail using cereal packet card - the raised stone work around the top of the roof line and base of the building, added the distinctive balcony and overhang at the front, the bay window to the rear and beefed up the chimneys. I have posed a couple of vans on what would be the quayside branch to recreate some of the distinctive photos.

 

 

 

 

 

The final shot shows what I have gleaned about the interior layout, as you go through the front doors you have the two larger rooms on either side, to the left (Loch side) you have the buffet in the bottom of the turret, and to the right (town side) you have the travel centre/booking office which has the bay windows to the rear. I presume the other small rooms are offices or stores, although I know the last room before the platforms on the town side is a small John Menzies book shop. The public toilets were outside of the main building on the town side platform (Platform 3).

 

The overall size of the station building in 2mm scale is approx 11cm wide x 14cm long x 5cm high.

 

Cheers

 

David 

[Signaller69]

Looks good for a mock up!

[Pacific231G]

Just to follow up my last post, I have enjoyed making this little mock-up, and I've probably taken it as far as I can now.

 

I have added a little more detail using cereal packet card - the raised stone work around the top of the roof line and base of the building, added the distinctive balcony and overhang at the front, the bay window to the rear and beefed up the chimneys. I have posed a couple of vans on what would be the quayside branch to recreate some of the distinctive photos.

 

DSCF3467 (1024x829).jpg

 

DSCF3468 (1024x741).jpg

 

DSCF3469 (1024x755).jpg

 

DSCF3470 (1024x768).jpg

 

The final shot shows what I have gleaned about the interior layout, as you go through the front doors you have the two larger rooms on either side, to the left (Loch side) you have the buffet in the bottom of the turret, and to the right (town side) you have the travel centre/booking office which has the bay windows to the rear. I presume the other small rooms are offices or stores, although I know the last room before the platforms on the town side is a small John Menzies book shop. The public toilets were outside of the main building on the town side platform (Platform 3).

 

The overall size of the station building in 2mm scale is approx 11cm wide x 14cm long x 5cm high.

 

Cheers

 

David 

Hi David

Doing a complete computer generated mock up is a really good idea it's saved me a couple of times from building something that wouldn't have worked on the layout. It's probably worth mocking up the the roof as well and then seeiing if it is the same from different angles as some of the photos. As it is such a distinctive building Are you edging towards a scale model of the whole Ft. William station as it was?

[David41283]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for the further PM's I've received in the last 24 hours. The time taken to send photos and messages to me is appreciated.

 

To answer the question above, I am not proposing a scale model of the original Fort William - however I am planning a layout which is extremely closely based upon it.

 

I want to capture the cramped Loch-side station, the lack of run round facilities and the trains being able to pull forward past and beyond the station onto the quayside a short way. I like the architecture of the station building and canopies so these will be near scale models, but I want to add an extra siding for a bit more interest. The whole thing will also be condensed a little too. 

 

I think making a model "based upon" gives me a lot more freedom - my plan is to run "anything interesting in Scotland between 1976 - 1986". It's odd, but I feel that with a scale model of a location I'd feel a duty to be more accurate with the trains and not have a 24/1 with a mixed train c. 1976 meeting a 37/4 in large logo with Scotrail branded mk2's from 1985 in the same station!

 

Cheers

 

David 

Edited March 17, 2016 by David41283

[David41283]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been using Anyrail5 to have a play at the track plan.

 

 

Here is a draft using code 55 templates. I can get everything in to my 4' x 1' space available, but I am not happy with the flow of the point work. The "ruler" on the plan shows the length of a loco and 4 coaches for scale.

 

I have been wrestling with Templot in the last few days, but went back to the far less detailed, but far more obvious Anyrail for the mo.

 

I mentioned "FiNetracks" above, but read on another thread, that no-one has actually build a notable layout using this system - is this true? I haven't seen one if there is such a project out there.

 

I have been looking at the 2mmFS society and their extensive shop of track building components. With only 3 pairs of points and being only 4ft long this would seem the ideal project to have a go at building my own track. However I would want to build an N Gauge layout so I would still be able to use my stock on other layouts.

 

It seems to me to be somewhat counter-intuitive to become a member of the 2mm association in order to buy components to build "n gauge" track, as I wouldn't be able to use their gauges, templates etc...

 

Is there another supplier of 2mm scale PCB sleepers and code 40 rail that I haven't found? I also have no idea where I would buy the necessary gauges to build N gauge finescale track.

 

What would be ideal, would be to purchase enough rail and sleepers to have a go at building a single soldered turnout to see how I get on, without having to join a society or buy enough sleepers and rail to do a whole layout.

 

Sorry for the slightly rambling post, but it's useful to get my thoughts in order.

 

Cheers

 

David 

 

(Edited as I uploaded the wrong image)

Edited March 21, 2016 by David41283

[Signaller69]

The plan is looking good. Its a long time since I did 'N' but I think I would use FiNetracks if I was starting a layout now, subject to stock running well on it; it looks reasonably straightforward, there was an article in Modelrail mag (iirc) a few months back dealing with building a point kit. Maybe use copperclad for any pointwork that isn't catered for.

 

Just my 5p worth anyway.

 

Martyn.

[David41283]

The plan is looking good. Its a long time since I did 'N' but I think I would use FiNetracks if I was starting a layout now, subject to stock running well on it; it looks reasonably straightforward, there was an article in Modelrail mag (iirc) a few months back dealing with building a point kit. Maybe use copperclad for any pointwork that isn't catered for.

Just my 5p worth anyway.

Martyn.

Funnily enough, the FiNetracks website went back up last week, so on Wednesday I have ordered a single B6 point and a length of track, and the necessary jigs. They weren't unreasonably expensive. The next thing I'll document on this thread is a very simple test plank with the FiNetracks.

 

I have yet to see or hear of a whole layout being built with this system, there have been a few mentioned but none appear to have come to fruition (on the web at least), so I'll record my progress here.

 

I also want to establish if the Dapol magnets will still work if buried beneath the FiNetracks (given the much shallow depth than peco I'm hopeful) and the best method for operating the point, servo, cobalt, tortoise etc....

[Pacific231G]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been using Anyrail5 to have a play at the track plan.

 

Fort Mallaigish Code 55.jpg

 

Here is a draft using code 55 templates. I can get everything in to my 4' x 1' space available, but I am not happy with the flow of the point work. The "ruler" on the plan shows the length of a loco and 4 coaches for scale.

 

Hi David

Fort William's very distinctive trackplan, with two left hand points coming directly off the lochside line to serve the two "inside" platforms, may be what you're missing. I know you're not building an actual model of the fort but it's a basic throat design I've seen used a few times (as well as on Ft. William) and it does look effective.

Ths is straight and the real Ft.William obviously wasn't.as it curved to follow the lochside

Edited March 25, 2016 by Pacific231G

[David41283]

The post above has intrigued me and so I've taken the shape of the station site from Google Maps and used it to draw this in Anyrail.

 

 

I reckon this is a pretty accurate representation of Fort William in 2mm. It uses code 55 curved points. In real life the island platform was extremely narrow at the end - a couple of feet - and the bay platforms were only just 5 coaches long. The black and white "ruler" is the length of four coaches and a loco.

 

This would seem to indicate that you could do a pretty reasonable scale model of FW in 4ft in 2mm scale.

 

I am getting the hand of Templot, so over the weekend I will see if I can scan this into Templot - this would then allow me to make changes to the angle and flow of the point and maybe be able to get my 4th siding in too.

 

Thanks for all the interest and PM's that I've received.

 

Cheers

 

David

 

 

[Pacific231G]

The post above has intrigued me and so I've taken the shape of the station site from Google Maps and used it to draw this in Anyrail.

 

FW1.jpg

 

I reckon this is a pretty accurate representation of Fort William in 2mm. It uses code 55 curved points. In real life the island platform was extremely narrow at the end - a couple of feet - and the bay platforms were only just 5 coaches long. The black and white "ruler" is the length of four coaches and a loco.

 

This would seem to indicate that you could do a pretty reasonable scale model of FW in 4ft in 2mm scale.

 

I am getting the hand of Templot, so over the weekend I will see if I can scan this into Templot - this would then allow me to make changes to the angle and flow of the point and maybe be able to get my 4th siding in too.

 

Thanks for all the interest and PM's that I've received.

 

Cheers

 

David

Hi David

You might find this useful for overall shapes though the actual tracks at the throat are a bit confused. It appears to be a bit straighter at the concourse end. It's from the 1901 25in/mile OS map and it also shows the trackplan  of the quayside line though I think that was singled in more recent years.

That's the same map oriented to your anyrail plan

This Edwardian photo shows the platforms to be straight for the full length of the canopies. I think the slight widening of the island platform towards the concourse indicated on the map is slight misdrafting as the canopy is clearly the same width for its whole length and other photos show it parallel to the track on both sides.

Do you have Ian Futers' article from the March 1994 Railway Modeller? That has a very clear scale plan of the whole site,

Edited March 26, 2016 by Pacific231G

[David41283]

Do you have Ian Futers' article from the March 1994 Railway Modeller? That has a very clear scale plan of the whole site,

 

Thanks - I didn't know the edition until now! I will have a copy next week - just ordered from ebay for a fiver inc. postage.

[dmeaden]

Funnily enough, the FiNetracks website went back up last week, so on Wednesday I have ordered a single B6 point and a length of track, and the necessary jigs. They weren't unreasonably expensive. The next thing I'll document on this thread is a very simple test plank with the FiNetracks.

 

I have yet to see or hear of a whole layout being built with this system, there have been a few mentioned but none appear to have come to fruition (on the web at least), so I'll record my progress here.

 

I also want to establish if the Dapol magnets will still work if buried beneath the FiNetracks (given the much shallow depth than peco I'm hopeful) and the best method for operating the point, servo, cobalt, tortoise etc....

I have been using fiNetrax for about a year. I built a test track like you suggested based on the A5 point and some track. I found all my stock ran perfectly and actually picked up better on the points than peco code 55.

 

As a result I am using fiNetrax for the whole layout. The first phase is based on Langholm in the early 60's and is an total of 12ft with 10 points of various sizes. The track is wired with 0.3mm brass rod as I have found this more resilient than the drawn copper or stranded wire. Points are controlled by Traintronics DCC motors and decoder combined in one unit.

 

I am very pleased with the results and have now built up a lot techniques for point and track laying. The track is laid on "cork" underlay with self adhesive strip to the 6mm ply baseboard. The track is secured with double sided tape to the cork.

 

The points and track were cut to size and "dry" fitted to the trackbed before removing the top tape of the double sided. Leads were soldered as work proceeds with the track pulled out of the sleepers a short way to eliminate any risk of soldering melting the chairs. Points are held in place by two track pins temporarily positioned around the switch to limited the thrust from the point motor until the ballast has been finished (this helps stop the very small movement of the point and protects the relatively delicate point mechanism).

 

The end result is very realistic and you can run all recent n-gauge stock without any modification (I have even run some older farish stock).

 

As regards magnets I use earth magnets fitted between the sleepers allowing more flexibility but it does make alignment of stock to the magnets more critical for uncoupling using Dapol system!

 

Good luck with your layout.

 

Regards DM

Edited March 26, 2016 by dmeaden

[David41283]

Hi all,

 

Just for interest I scanned the plan from the 1994 RM into Templot and have had a go at adding scale track. The plan didn't have a scale so I had to estimate based upon the size of buildings etc..

 

The overall length of the actual layout in n gauge would be 3m! Including the harbour siding and the full approaches to the station. You could probably get full length pointwork and a bit of the harbour into a 6ft layout.

 

The "scale" points are slightly curved C10s in the end.

 

 

Apologies I'm still getting to grips with Templot and couldn't export the image particularly well!

 

Based upon this little experiment I am planning to stick to my initial principles and build a "based upon" layout and not exceed my self-imposed 4ft size limit so that it still fits at home!

 

Cheers

 

David

[westhighlandline]

Hi David

 

Modelling the West Highland myself, I shall be watching this project very closely and with great interest. Thrilled to see more come to life in 3D!

 

Cheers, Kosta

Edited April 9, 2016 by westhighlandline