Port Talbot steelmaking, Tata & railways

[Dava]

There doesn't seem to be a thread on this topic which is suddenly gaining a high profile. The Appleby Frodingham operations at Scunthorpe have a [very good] thread but there's nowhere to exchange news and updates on Port Talbot, or the other Tata owned UK steel operations, unless I've missed it.

 

The rail system, iron and steelmaking, docks and other operations at Port Talbot have a long & distinguished history. The rail operations [mainline and industrial] are substantial but simply part of the support systems for this vast and efficient integrated plant. The political mood music is suddenly very depressing with the Daily Torygraph arguing against a 'bail-out' for the plant and Cameron with that serious desperate look. Apparently 15000 jobs and a big chunk of the South Wales economy depends on the plant.

 

So, what is happening at Port Talbot? What are the scenarios for the future of steelmaking & the rail operations which support them? What is likely to happen?

 

I am not an expert or a doom-monger; I have huge respect for the majesty, industrial and economic power of the major steel plants, and for the people who work in them. And a big concern.

 

Dava

[Osgood]

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is - but this UK industry, its rich reserves of skills, and the communities dependent upon it, deserve to be saved somehow.

 

To put steel production into perspective, in 2014 annual production of crude steel was running at:

 

UK               12   million tonnes

RUSSIA       71     ..        ..

US               88     ..        ..

JAPAN       110     ..        ..

EU (total)   169     ..        ..

CHINA       822     ..        ..     (of which something like 560 million tonnes was for their own domestic use - the rest dumped at cheap prices on the global market)

 

 

(Above figures from World Steel Association)

 

You can bet the cost of quality rail line will escalate if we can no longer make it ourselves…….

[russ p]

Wasn't the Hatfield crash caused by using inferior foreign rail. The Chinese can't be trusted to inspect their own steel properly, remember last year's earthquake?

With regards to Tata I would let them walk away, but also from jaguar land rover.

In other words if you can't make steel make money we'll try any use the profits from the cars to support it

[johnd]

This country needs to keep production here as a matter of national importance. We cannot be in a position to rely upon foreign imports as who knows what the future may bring.

 

I know it is another topic but closing the coal mines is a disappointment as there are enough reserves down there to supply future energy needs ( its just cheaper to use other methods at the moment ).

 

I personally think Coal will be back at some point as will the need for home production of Steel.

 

Keep Steel production in Britain we can't afford not to !

[The Stationmaster]

The problem with all these basic industries is that if we lose them we never really get them back.  Stop making steel and the car plants will be the next to go - why should foreign companies build cars in a country which doesn't make the wherewithal to make them?  One can but hope for a proper resolution and for the politicos to apply EU rules in at least a good away as Germany does (plus buying British steel for Govt sponsored projects - even if it costs a bit more).

[runs as required]

I remember from reading CJ Allen's memoires that he got his bum on the 'privileged' cushions very early on (to take over Rous-Marten's column in the RM) for the Great Eastern going around the country checking the specs for their purchases of rail.

Rail mostly seemed to come from Workington when CJA was on his procurement travels. Though that is still part of Tata 'Long products division'  the 500 at Workington seem mostly stockholding.

 

It is interesting that Shap limestone quarry is also Tata owned for steel making.

dh

[Neil]

From what I've heard on the news the big problem seems to be overproduction of steel in China which is consequently dumping it on the world market at less than what it costs to make it. Europe has agreed tariffs to try and level the playing field, but at a relatively low level. I don't believe that the EU can take the blame for this as apparently our government argued against setting a higher tariff.  There are suggestions that they took this line to appease/keep the Chinese sweet as they hope for Chinese investment in the forthcoming nuclear power program.

[edcayton]

Apparently Tata is losing £1 million a day on its UK operations. By my maths that's £30 million a month, which is about 50 p each. Surely we can afford that to keep several towns alive, and to allow thousands of workers to keep their pride?

 

Ed

[plarailfan]

Bad news for UK rail freight as yet more of traffic and revenue evaporates !

Maybe the Govt, will encourage the growth of retail parks and shopping centres to stimulate the economy and keep unemployment figures down ?

Many of the steelworkers may well find they end up on "nat minimum wage" eventually, which certainly doesn't allow much disposable income for holidays, hobbies, meals out and other pleasurable pastimes.

300 managers jobs have just been cut at a major employer in my local area, in a bid to save the company some money and maintain profitability.

It's very disappointing to see so much decline in job prospects and living standards for so many people.

Banking and finance seem to be sectors that haven't suffered quite so much in recent times. maybe that will be the future for the UK economy ?    

[br2975]

There are numerous factors that have combined to effect the future of the British steel industry in addition to the dumping of cheap Chinese steel.

e.g.

High UK energy prices - Port Talbot uses the same amount of electricity as the nearby city of Swansea, Celsa (UK) in Cardiff uses the same as the city of Norwich.

.

Excessive business rates.

.

US protectionist policies - the same policies that started the decline of the Welsh tinplate industry ( the "McKinley tariff" ).

.

I note the OP refers to the "Daily Torygraph" but no British political party can look themselves in the mirror when it comes to the UK steel industry, after all in 1975 steel making ended at Ebbw Vale, and three years later East Moors (Cardiff) closed - all under a Labour government.

.

I wish I had the answers...........................

[Dava]

Fine shot of 901, an example of the Brush-Bagnall build of 1954-6 with brake tender there

 

Phil Trotter has an excellent set of views of the Port Talbot loco fleet in its variety, showing what could be split up or lost if there is no plan to retain and sell the works. Is there any other UK location with such a large and varied loco fleet?

 

http://www.philt.org.uk/Industrial/PT/i-8qSBkW3

 

Dava

[runs as required]

Bad news for UK rail freight as yet more of traffic and revenue evaporates !

Maybe the Govt, will encourage the growth of retail parks and shopping centres to stimulate the economy and keep unemployment figures down  ?    

Seems Napoleon got it absolutely right about us being a nation of shopkeepers.

I'm worried about them Gormans and their Lidl and Aldi undercutting our Sainsburys and Waitrose.

 

dh

[phil-b259]

Wasn't the Hatfield crash caused by using inferior foreign rail. The Chinese can't be trusted to inspect their own steel properly, remember last year's earthquake?

With regards to Tata I would let them walk away, but also from jaguar land rover.

In other words if you can't make steel make money we'll try any use the profits from the cars to support it

 

Hatfield was caused by Railtrack / Balfour Beatty not renewing a rail when they knew it was defective. As such where the steel used to make the rail concerned came from is irreverent to the crash - the rail needed replacing and it wasn't.

[porkie]

I thought the major money loss was down to the new green tax the eu ruled in . Which has caused the other great industrial losses with the power stations etc

[russ p]

Hatfield was caused by Railtrack / Balfour Beatty not renewing a rail when they knew it was defective. As such where the steel used to make the rail concerned came from is irreverent to the crash - the rail needed replacing and it wasn't.

It was Italian rail though Phil

[Derekl]

Rail is now made in Scunthorpe. Tata are in negotiation to sell the plant, although I am not sure what exactly they are selling, just the rail rolling mill or some of the other plant required to serve it.

 

Historically rail was rolled at Workington and that plant supplied most British railways and exported extensively. Steel can be produced by being cast in ingots, the traditional method. The problem is that there can be impurities in this process if the pour is not perfect, and the blooms (basically a big chunk) or billets - longish pieces of 4" x 4" steel (the ones used to roll to rail) need to be "dressed" using grinders to remove those that are apparent.

 

The more advanced approach is "continuous casting" (or "con-cast"). This involves the ladle of steel (250 tonnes each at Scunthorpe) being poured (not by being tilted- there is a gate at the bottom of the ladle) into a tundish, a sort of sophisticated funnel from which the molten steel at around 1200 degrees C is then formed into a row of 8 steel billets (in the billet caster, there is also a slab caster). They come out of the moulds with a forming skin which holds the billet together (the inside is still molten steel) as it drops down in a lengthy curve onto cooling beds, where the billet is cooled and cut to length. It looks very impressive as the red-hot billets bend down towards the cooling beds, although if the skin has not properly formed, there is a "break out" which causes considerable hassle. The casting process can continue for considerable periods without a break.

 

The result is very high quality steel, and rail has only been made from con-cast steel for some years, at least since the 1980s and probably before. The billets were shipped to Workington where they were rolled into rail (Workington never had a Con-cast plant). That plant was closed in 2006, and as far as I am aware replaced by the Long Products rolling mill at Scunthorpe which rolls 98% of Network Rail requirements. I don't know how much now goes to export, but I would have thought there must be some.

 

The Scunthorpe plant, like Port Talbot is an integrated plant, with process from blast furnace to make iron, BOS process steel making plant and continuous casting plant to end product from rolling mills. My guess it it will survive at least in part. I am not sure whether the current buyers are looking at the rail rolling mill only, or at more of the process: I would have thought the Con-cast at least essential, but then you need the steel making plant to feed it. You may get away without the blast furnaces.

 

Sorry this has not a lot to do with Port Talbot but the issue is raised above and I hope this response has some interest.

[Ohmisterporter]

Think Defence blog has been listing some parliamentary question about how much steel is used in British defence building and the origins of most of that steel. There are some very specialized steels made at Port Talbot.

 

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/03/steel-related-defence-parliamentary-questions-answers/

[Arthur]

 

Just to be clear, continuous casting is standard practice in virtually all steelworks world wide, it is not an advantage, it is an essential.

 

Neither Port Talbot or Scunthorpe could, as they stand, make steel without blast furnaces. The BOS process requires liquid hot metal, iron, direct from the blast furnace. So if they lost their iron smelting capacity their current steel plants would immediately be redundant.

 

They would need to be re-equipped with electric arc furnaces and would become scrap melting plants. It is unlikely that they would retain anything like their current steel making capacity in those circumstances.

[APOLLO]

Not Port Talbot, but related.

 

My brother in law is a German civil engineer based in Bangkok working for a German firm. His work is middle / far east, mainly new road bridges. he specialises in post-stressed concrete, which requires special steel bars and tension fittings etc. His firm buys a hell of a lot of steel from Rotheram Yorkshire. He says it is always of  excellent and reliable quality. I remember him telling me he tried Chinese steel once, just once - it was no good and it all went straight to the scrapyard. His only complaint of the Rotheram supplier was that sometimes the plant could not produce quickly enough.

 

Having visited his office I was impressed with the work they do. There is a display of the British steel rods and fittings in his office foyer in Bangkok.

 

I fear not just for Port Talbot but for the whole of British manufacturing if our base production steel industry is shut down.

 

As to Chinese steel, read these two reports I posted earlier in the Mazak thread,, and worry.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/109803-mazak-rot-arrghhh/?p=2258862

 

Brit15

[Osgood]

Tell you what I just don't get -

 

We set ourselves high standards - take just for example introducing stricter limits for environmental emissions from galvanising plants.  Admirable stuff you might say, doing our bit to save the planet.

But the cost of operating such plants then goes up such that it becomes cheaper to import pre-galvanised product from 1/2 way around the world.

 

Imagine for a moment what environmental standards the plants now doing the work might be working to.

 

So, by setting such high standards we appear to be unwittingly:

 

          1. suffocating our own industry/commerce, reducing employment opportunities and harming local economies - whilst at the same time:

 

          2. increasing the damage done to the global environment by causing the transfer of work to less environmentally friendly plants.

 

I imagine similar scenarios apply to blast furnace operations as well as chicken and pork production.

 

 

I'm certainly not the brightest spark, but methinks we haven't got it quite right…..

[russ p]

Im getting a bit sick of the news when the start saying things like' well China will have to close some plants too' Well sorry for the people loosing their jobs but I don't really give a dam, or about anyone else's steelworks.
WE Invented them, we also Invented deep mining an we've lost that, so no way should we give in. Gideon may have been brown nosing the Chinese for his banking buddies but I'm sick of BRITISH industry suffering and closing!

[rockershovel]

The lure of "access to Chinese markets" has been dazzling tne financial elite for centuries. Cameron's trust fund is based on "China Trade" money, but THAT trade consisted of buying in China and selling in Europe.

 

That's the crucial problem with making money by doing business in China, and always has been - the Chinese won't allow it

[peanuts]

Apparently Tata is losing £1 million a day on its UK operations. By my maths that's £30 million a month, which is about 50 p each. Surely we can afford that to keep several towns alive, and to allow thousands of workers to keep their pride?

 

Ed

read somewhere today that the money used to bail out the bank of scotland would keep port talbot running at its current loses for 123 years shame it wont ever happen 

[BlackRat]

Funny old world, where we will soon be a net importer of coal, steel, and let foreign countries take over our energy supplies, including nuclear.......

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There's something very majestic about a heavy industry plant.

No frills, just honest endeavour.

 

Built by generations; yet (seemingly) gone in a blink.

 

 

Coal gone.

Gas, electricity, nuclear, water, car manufacture, railways, shipping - all mostly sold off to foreign competitors.

 

What's the point of a government (of whatever colour) if it's not to support its own people and the industries they work in.

 

And it's not as if steel doesn't have a future.....