Joe MCMLXI Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Having a bit of a clear out of Loco's and stock that haven't been used and/or not really suitable for my layout, trying to sell on to people who might make better use of them on E-Bay. The next one to come out was a Hornby R2220 'Railroad' 9F, renumbered and weathered. So off to the shed... Upon putting the loco onto the layout for a testing run, I noticed that it didn't sit very well at the tender end. Flipped the tender over and OMG ! whats happened to the tender chassis? First thoughts were I must of damaged it by careless handling, but it's seriously broken / bent! I then searched on RMweb and came across the word 'Mazak'.... oh dear! needs a bit of a strip down and repair, to get it in good condition, before it can be sold, something I wasn't expecting ! joe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 You'll be able to pick up an old ringfield motor chassis easily, in fact I think I have one lying around somewhere ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 The good news is, it should be fairly straight forwards to get a new chassis block. Though its more expense! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) The part number is not listed on the service sheet for the RR 9F but you need an S4562, 4563 or 4564 motor chassis Edited February 16, 2023 by RedgateModels missing screen grab removed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Always worth thinking about selling 'as is', because the key part - the loco - is fine. Possibly sell just the loco, dump the tender in the scrap bin. Purchasers are unpredictable. I once got a better price for a loco alone, than loco with the tender; because the purchaser was looking for a body plus drive only, was 'unable to break up a complete loco plus tender'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalKat Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Al,so some of us model *whispers.. in other gauges* Emma Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 I must be missing something here. R2220 is a Bulleid Pacific. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I must be missing something here. R2220 is a Bulleid Pacific. Must be the heavy freight version that Bulleid had to do to get it built in wartime, it is in simplified wartime black livery after all.... Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 Must be the heavy freight version that Bulleid had to do to get it built in wartime, it is in simplified wartime black livery after all.... Stewart Thanks, Stewart. I did say I must be missing something and you have filled in the blank, TVM! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilwell Park Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 HI This topic reminded me that my Railroad 9F (92221) tender was prone to derailment. I checked and it has the same complaint, it copes with RH curves but not LH. Luckily I have an old Tri-ang tender chassis that will do the job. However I was about to sell a couple of spare tenders on Ebay, I think I might hang on to them just in case. Roger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) I have four Railroad 9F's. I've just checked them. Two OK one has stiff wheels and one a little rot. I've put a touch of WD40 on the 2 affected and they seem to run OK. This Mazak milarkey is just not on with models costing what they do. I've a good mind to contact Hornby and see what they are prepared to do. God knows what other "time bombs" (Hornby, Heljan etc) we all have. Chinese metallurgic quality control is crap. God help us when our Steel industry closes (which I fear will happen) and all our steel is Chineese. Talking of time bombs, Steel and China - http://www.constructionmanagermagazine.com/news/chinese-stee7l-safe-indu2stry-meets-bis-exam5ine/ Also http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/10/24/one-third-of-rebar-used-on-uk-sites-is-chinese/ Brit15 Edited April 1, 2016 by APOLLO 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) copied from another area of the forum... need to add the Limited edition Hornby R2892 LSWR T9 number 120 in LSWR Green from the collectors club to the list of mazak rot failures. I gave it a spin the other day... all I could hear spinning was the motor. When I removed the body, the motor retainer fell out in a separate corroded lump. Ive gone the glue route to fix it, I glued the motor into the chassis, but found the gear tries to lift from the box causing the spin again. so then I filed the retainer gently (on the sides which were bowing out) and glued the edges a little and refitted, this is holding the gear box down again. So far so good, but I can see the cracks throughout the housing, so I think at the right moment I may buy a new T9, swap the chassis / wheels with this one (I know thats expensive) but as to be down a limited edition is a bit unpleasant, but fitting another secondhand chassis older chassis is asking for the same issue twice ! what worries me is what awaits down the road, when loco prices are reaching towards the £200, what will happen in 5 years if mazak turns out to be the achilles heel of the hobby and todays stuff starts to fall apart. Coming back to your 9F, I have had 92221 and 92220 rot on me, fear not however as Mazak hell goes, the 9F is the easiest to remedy.. replacing the holder is straight forwards.. screwdriver in the centre of the block / plastic frame and prize it out. An Older Hornby UK made class 47 / 37 unpowered bogie frame (umpteen on ebay for a few quid) will do as a replacement (swap the wheels). I always found the tender a little light on the weight side so took the opportunity to add a few lumps of weight ontop when I put it back in... the fitting itself is just a snap fit. Edited April 1, 2016 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 21C123 Posted April 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 7, 2016 Hi I received a second hand Merchant Navy today, with "piston faults" when I lifted it from the box the left hand connecting rod wasn't connected to the piston, and when I tried to move the piston it was very stiff. I took the cylinders off and the end of the piston rod was splayed out a bit, then the slide bar connection broke.... it appears that the pistons are made from Mazak, so now I need to source at least one, and preferably two to replace them. Hopefully it wont affect my other Bulleids.... Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MCMLXI Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 whoops, well spotted Ian, R2880 is the one I meant! joe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 ....This Mazak malarkey is just not on with models costing what they do.... Chinese metallurgic quality control is crap. .... It's crap for a reason. The reason is to ensure you keep coming back to them every so often for replacements (assuming of course they make such things available). It's not just metallurgy; plastics are affected as well, as Aston Martin found out a couple of years ago. I've also seen complaints on some of the German forums that their HO models are similarly affected; they refer to it as "zinc pest". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Oh I won't go back for more if "Zinc Pest" gets contagious, I will just run my trusty Lima and old Tri-ang stuff !!!! Honestly though, this is a serious problem as it manifests on fairly recent models. Not good. Hornby (etc) should acknowledge the problems and at least re manufacture affected parts in good material and offer free replacements. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireline Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 It's crap for a reason. The reason is to ensure you keep coming back to them every so often for replacements (assuming of course they make such things available). Can I just check something? You're suggesting that these parts are deliberately being manufactured to such a poor standard that it is inevitable that they will fail? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Brit70053 Posted April 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) I don't have any kind of expertise on the subject of Mazak Rot or Zinc Pest, other than what I have read about these blights being caused by impurities or imbalances in the mixes of metals used to create the end product. It seems however, not to be a new phenomenon in the world of die cast model products. I recall the anecdotal tale recounted by Cyril Freezer in one of his 'bookazines' ( 'All About Model Railways' IIRC) . It concerned the aghast astonishment of the owner of a rare and valuable vintage Dinky car when it slipped from his grasp and disintegrated into little more than a heap of metallic dust on impact with the floor. Whether it is just 'the luck of the draw' whether a Mazak compound has few enough impurities to prevent problems, or if its possible to QA mixtures sufficiently to eliminate risk, I don't know, but it might be thought that a suitable alternative material not susceptible to fatigue( if that's a suitable description) could have been identified over the years. As ever, I suspect that if an alternative material was considered, cost would be the foremost consideration for manufacturers. I strongly doubt that any of the current manufacturers would deliberately specify sub standard materials in their models. Regards, John Edit punctuation and a clarification Edited April 7, 2016 by Brit70053 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted April 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2016 interesting wiki page on Zinc Pest.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest one solution proposed is... some model railroad hobbyists have claimed, with varying degrees of success, that a method of "pickling" zinc alloy parts by soaking them in vinegar or oxalic acid solution for several minutes before painting and assembling them could prevent or delay the effects of zinc pest. anyone tried pickling their models in sarsons ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Can I just check something? You're suggesting that these parts are deliberately being manufactured to such a poor standard that it is inevitable that they will fail? Suggest you read this book 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Better still, why not replace the dummy motor block with a live motor + weights and give the loco super traction of both a loco and tender motor. I did it once with an early 1990s A3 fitted with an XO4 motor in the loco + a tender dtive motor. It went that fast I had to restrain it when running but by golly could she pull a load, 15 - 20 coaches was easily done. Slight digression I know but my point is that if you try dual motor power that should help matters as the older Class 37/47 motors never had this problem. Dual motor engines can be difficult to control if the motors do not perform in the same way or have differing outputs. See the long-running thread on the erratic qualities of the Heljan-made LMS Beyer-Garratt. As has been said in that thread, it seems to work better with spur-geared drivetrains, e.g. in identical motor bogies such as Ringfields. Edited April 7, 2016 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) interesting wiki page on Zinc Pest.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest one solution proposed is... anyone tried pickling their models in sarsons ? The wikipedia article also states that "articles made after 1960 are usually considered free of the risk of zinc pest since the use of purer materials and more controlled manufacturing conditions make zinc pest degradation unlikely." So that's ok then as anything after 1960 wont need the sarsons... oh, wait... Edited April 7, 2016 by railroadbill 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I have a pre war Trix Twin locomotive, which is bloated and deformed due to the zinc pest. However it has not fallen apart yet. We are looking at this 80 years later! The impurities in modern day models must be worse than the 1930s if they are falling apart within a few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 5 Bear Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 "Mazakgate" strikes again !!!!! At least Hornby Customer Services do the decent think and attempt to repair of replace models or offer a voucher in lieu. Excellent service I think, considering some of these products are 10yrs old or more and well out of the guarantee period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 The wikipedia article also states that "articles made after 1960 are usually considered free of the risk of zinc pest since the use of purer materials and more controlled manufacturing conditions make zinc pest degradation unlikely." So that's ok then as anything after 1960 wont need the sarsons... oh, wait... Made since 1960, and before production moved to China, perhaps. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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