The Kings Cross Layout Mid 50's to Mid 60's

[jonny777]

Hi Alex

Is WOW enough, I cannot think of anything else.

 

 

No, I think WOW! is more appropriate.

 

Kings Cross was my favourite station; I could have spent weeks there without going home, so this thread is giving me nostalgic palpitations.

[Ray H]

Excellent layout.

 

I have vague memories of being involved with the scheduling the platform working over Bank Holidays in the mid 60s. Those were the days when few trains arrived and departed in passenger service. Most either arrived or departed empty if I recall correctly.

 

I note the absence of the loco release crossovers at the buffer stop ends of certain platforms. Was that an intentional decision? I have to admit I don't recall their use ever being scheduled.

[Alex_Clements@KX]

Current progress on the engine shed and diesel depot 4/4/2016

[Alex_Clements@KX]

Excellent layout.

 

I have vague memories of being involved with the scheduling the platform working over Bank Holidays in the mid 60s. Those were the days when few trains arrived and departed in passenger service. Most either arrived or departed empty if I recall correctly.

 

I note the absence of the loco release crossovers at the buffer stop ends of certain platforms. Was that an intentional decision? I have to admit I don't recall their use ever being scheduled.

Thanks very much, its great that lots of people are able to share their memories of the station. To answer your correct observation, the original plan was to have the crossovers but the lack of space meant that something had to go and as you rightly say that they were not used much there was no need to have them.

[Alex_Clements@KX]

A quick look at the outside running main lines.

[AngusDe]

I've just watched the YouTube videos on my big tv with my 5yo granddaughter.

 

"that's a great train set granda!"

 

She's right.

 

Angus 

(dusts of sketch of Glasgow Central and approaches in the attic in N.....)

[LNERGE]

I'd like to know more about the signalling. I see lots of lovely four and three aspect signals. How do they/will they work? I love the structures some of them are on.They put my Airfix signal gantries to shame.

Edited April 4, 2016 by LNERGE

[Alex_Clements@KX]

I'd like to know more about the signalling. I see lots of lovely four and three aspect signals. How do they/will they work? I love the structures some of them are on.They put my Airfix signal gantries to shame.

The signals are ekcon. kits on scratch built gantry’s. They will all work 'eventually' with some the main line track ones on automatic track circuit system and the ones in Belle isle maybe on semi-auto. But as the signals are at the bottom of the priority list, they may not be working for along time.

[Alex_Clements@KX]

The longest train to run on the Kings Cross Layout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egb5F4Fns9M

[LNERGE]

The longest train to run on the Kings Cross Layout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egb5F4Fns9M

My book of words and numbers says you can have another four KX to York... LL = 75 reduced to 74 for steam.. You'd need to declare most of the wagons as empty though. Super stuff i'm loving this layout. Inspirational. (LNERGE's layout about to be evicted from it's current location and heading for the loft 14x35 feet).

Edited April 6, 2016 by LNERGE

[LNERGE]

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Alex and LNERGE

 

 

This is from the 1967 ER Freight Train Loads Book. The length limit was 75, standard wagons. A standard wagon was one of approximately one of 21 ft over buffers, a 12 van or a 13ton open. It will be noted that D20/3 (class 40) can take 83 Basic Wagon Units between London and Doncaster. That is not 83 wagons but the equivalent of 83 basic wagons in weight. A 13 ton open wagon loaded with a light load was one basic wagon. A sixteen ton mineral with a full load was considered to be 2 basic wagon units. It could be quite complicated calculating the train composition to ensure it was not overloaded.  As LNERGE has stated a train that was 75 wagons long would be mainly empties or at most light loaded 13 ton opens or 12 ton vans.

 

The poor guard had to check all this before the train departed.

 

I find the freight load books wonderful, but to date have not built a layout were the information contained would be put to use.

 

I chose the class 8 trains because by 1967 the ER did not have any class 7 trains but moved on to class 7* trains with a fitted head but could run a we bit faster than a class 7 freight. They were still 75 standard wagon length. A class 40 could take 84 basic wagon units of which a minimum of 6 fitted wagons with operative brakes attached to the locomotive would be required.

[LNERGE]

I'm sure this is a 7* and possibly pushing thing's a bit...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/16742224198/

 

This is similar but pushing the limits right out the window in my opinion..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5669412592/

[Clive Mortimore]

I'm sure this is a 7* and possibly pushing thing's a bit...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/16742224198/

 

This is similar but pushing the limits right out the window in my opinion..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5669412592/

Hi LNERGE

 

The Bo-Bo must be on the very limits, he has 5 fitted wagons which means he can have up to 66 Basic Wagon Units, each empty 16 tonner counts as 5/6th of a basic wagon unit. This means he can have 79 empty 16 tonners so it must be on the length limit of 75 standard wagons. I am not going to try and count them from the photo. Anyhow what is it doing there. I know they were common at Peterborough on ex MR line workings but Abbotts Ripton is not normal for a 25.

 

 

Edit Sorry Alex we seem to have hijacked your layout thread.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Clive Mortimore

[Alex_Clements@KX]

Hi LNERGE

 

The Bo-Bo must be on the very limits, he has 5 fitted wagons which means he can have up to 66 Basic Wagon Units, each empty 16 tonner counts as 5/6th of a basic wagon unit. This means he can have 79 empty 16 tonners so it must be on the length limit of 75 standard wagons. I am not going to try and count them from the photo. Anyhow what is it doing there. I know they were common at Peterborough on ex MR line workings but Abbotts Ripton is not normal for a 25.

 

 

Edit Sorry Alex we seem to have hijacked your layout thread.

No it's ok, I was enjoying it. here is another long train that's run on the layout. Wrong region but it's nice to have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be3Hr2-5L_0

[jonny777]

I'm sure this is a 7* and possibly pushing thing's a bit...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/16742224198/

 

This is similar but pushing the limits right out the window in my opinion..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5669412592/

 

 

I had a quick look at some of my 1967 GN&GE notes, but I did not note if the train had a fitted head.

 

However, there were long trains in those days, and not just empties.

 

For instance D5638 had 66 wagons on the 1550 Doncaster to Whitemoor.  D1879 also had 66 on the 0735 Mansfield Sidings to Whitemoor.  D1792 had 71 on the 2205 Toton to Whitemoor. All those were loaded trains and include brake van.

 

The class 48s on empties seem to be the longest down trains.  D1702 had 74 on the 0755 Whiteloor to Warsop Junc, D1703 had 76 on the 1005 Whitemoor to Warsop Junc, although D6742 had 73 on the 0745 Whitemoor to Black Carr West.

 

Kestrel also seems to have had 75 or 76 during its 1968 exploits on that route.

[Clive Mortimore]

I had a quick look at some of my 1967 GN&GE notes, but I did not note if the train had a fitted head.

 

However, there were long trains in those days, and not just empties.

 

For instance D5638 had 66 wagons on the 1550 Doncaster to Whitemoor.  D1879 also had 66 on the 0735 Mansfield Sidings to Whitemoor.  D1792 had 71 on the 2205 Toton to Whitemoor. All those were loaded trains and include brake van.

 

The class 48s on empties seem to be the longest down trains.  D1702 had 74 on the 0755 Whiteloor to Warsop Junc, D1703 had 76 on the 1005 Whitemoor to Warsop Junc, although D6742 had 73 on the 0745 Whitemoor to Black Carr West.

 

Kestrel also seems to have had 75 or 76 during its 1968 exploits on that route.

Hi Jonny

 

The Freight Train Loads Book does indicate that the trains on Doncaster to Whitemoor section for all classes of locomotive could be composed of a greater number of basic wagon units than those of the GNR main line. This means longer loaded trains can be run. A English Electric Type 4 could haul up to 124 BWU where on the GN it was 83. But wasn't that the reason the GN&GE line was built, for heavier freight trains. The book indicates that the length limit was 75 standard wagons.

[Enterprisingwestern]

No it's ok, I was enjoying it. here is another long train that's run on the layout. Wrong region but it's nice to have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be3Hr2-5L_0

It might just be me, but, I can't help thinking there's something missing, unless 86,s are secret Bulleid/Raworth locos?

 

 

Mike.

[LNERGE]

It might just be me, but, I can't help thinking there's something missing, unless 86,s are secret Bulleid/Raworth locos?

 

 

Mike.

Coasting with the pan down is in the rulebook now. 

[Flood]

I'm sure this is a 7* and possibly pushing thing's a bit...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/16742224198/

 

This is similar but pushing the limits right out the window in my opinion..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5669412592/

Just to clarify the Class 25 train I have a copy of the 1975 white pages.

 

The 25 had a brake force of 38 and I think only the two 21 tonners were vacuum fitted which is another 6 each making a total brake force of 50.

A route with gradients of up to 1 in 100 allowed 720 tonnes maximum load and a 16 ton mineral wagon was only 9 tonnes empty so there could be a maximum of:

 

720 - 76t for the loco - (2 x 12t) for the 21 tonners - 20t for the brake van = 648 tonnes = 72 of the 9ft minerals.

 

Not that far away from the 1960s calculations and still a considerable load for a Class 25.

 

 

Apologies to Alex for even more hijacking.

[jonny777]

Hi Jonny

 

The Freight Train Loads Book does indicate that the trains on Doncaster to Whitemoor section for all classes of locomotive could be composed of a greater number of basic wagon units than those of the GNR main line. This means longer loaded trains can be run. A English Electric Type 4 could haul up to 124 BWU where on the GN it was 83. But wasn't that the reason the GN&GE line was built, for heavier freight trains. The book indicates that the length limit was 75 standard wagons.

 

 

Thanks Clive.

 

I think that the sidings of various yards could not cope with more than about 75; which tended to set its own limit.  Although I did record D1703 with 84 wagons on 9th April 1968, but frustratingly did not note the headcode and so do not know its destination.

 

I imagine that Kestrel could have managed twice that number on the flat run across the fens, but the logistics of marshalling and splitting two sidings' worth of wagons was more trouble than it was worth.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Jonny

 

The Freight Train Loads Book does indicate that the trains on Doncaster to Whitemoor section for all classes of locomotive could be composed of a greater number of basic wagon units than those of the GNR main line. This means longer loaded trains can be run. A English Electric Type 4 could haul up to 124 BWU where on the GN it was 83. But wasn't that the reason the GN&GE line was built, for heavier freight trains. The book indicates that the length limit was 75 standard wagons.

 

Basic Wagon Units are the figure for weight calculation (the exact figure varied from Region to Region until calculation solely by tonnage came into use),  SLUs (Standard Length Units, 1 SLU =21 feet - universally on BR) are the figure for length calculation.  The length limit for any particulr route usually excluded the brakevan and, more obviously, the loco.

 

Depending on the nature of the traffic and the gradients you would often run out of one before you reached the permitted maximum of the other and under pre-authroised circumstances permission could be given to exceed either or both by means of what we (on the WR) called 'Special Loads'.  Thus even from the 1970s but more so in the 1980s/'90s once we had things like the Class 59s in the 1980s and '90s thus on the Western we were regularly running trains with a  permitted trailing load of 5,000 tons (real tons, not metric) and were running trains up to 120 SLUs long on one route.

 

However a critical factor with trailing weight was to only allow larger than normal loads for particular types of wagon in order to ensure that the right kind of couplings (latterly 50 ton) were in use.

[BrushType4]

Fantastic. I'm building Kings Cross throat including milk dock and maintenance point in 7mm scale. A life long project and I'll certainly be watching your thread with interest. 

[Alex_Clements@KX]

Belle Isle under construction in 2010. This is only a representation of Belle Isle as there is not enough space to recreate the actual location.

[Alex_Clements@KX]

Gasworks tunnel north portals under construction