RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 4, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2016 According to Wikipedia (which I think got its info from reliable sources), two Terriers, 52 'Surrey' and 57 'Thames' were sold to Pauling & Co in 1902 for the construction of the GCR Chiltern Line. In 1909 they were sold on to Argentina to 'La Plata' Tramways (I think this might be the La Plata Electric Tramways Co Ltd of 1909). There seems to be no evidence online for what happened to them after that sale, which I presume was probably for construction of a tramway. I think the general consensus is that they would have been worked hard and probably scrapped quite soon after. Does anyone have or know of any hard evidence for the fate of these two Terriers? For the record, my opinion is that they no longer exist, so this isn't an attempt to try and find them still in existence (a bit like the rumours for 'Kestrel' being in Russia somewhere). I'd just like to have knowledge of their story and their fate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomisd Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 According to Wikipedia (which I think got its info from reliable sources), two Terriers, 52 'Surrey' and 57 'Thames' were sold to Pauling & Co in 1902 for the construction of the GCR Chiltern Line. In 1909 they were sold on to Argentina to 'La Plata' Tramways (I think this might be the La Plata Electric Tramways Co Ltd of 1909). There seems to be no evidence online for what happened to them after that sale, which I presume was probably for construction of a tramway. I think the general consensus is that they would have been worked hard and probably scrapped quite soon after. Does anyone have or know of any hard evidence for the fate of these two Terriers? For the record, my opinion is that they no longer exist, so this isn't an attempt to try and find them still in existence (a bit like the rumours for 'Kestrel' being in Russia somewhere). I'd just like to have knowledge of their story and their fate. According to the Lightmoor Press book Mainline to Industry (which lists sales from mainline companies to industrial owners) the two Terriers sold to Pauling in May 1902 for use in Argentina were 649 (79) Bishopsgate and 657 (64) Thames. However there is a footnote that states "It is not known for sure whether it was 649 or 657 that went to La Plata Tramways. Whichever locomotive it was that went , the one that was left behind was scrapped in 1909". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) According to Wikipedia (which I think got its info from reliable sources), two Terriers, 52 'Surrey' and 57 'Thames' were sold to Pauling & Co in 1902 for the construction of the GCR Chiltern Line. In 1909 they were sold on to Argentina to 'La Plata' Tramways (I think this might be the La Plata Electric Tramways Co Ltd of 1909). There seems to be no evidence online for what happened to them after that sale, which I presume was probably for construction of a tramway. I think the general consensus is that they would have been worked hard and probably scrapped quite soon after. Does anyone have or know of any hard evidence for the fate of these two Terriers? For the record, my opinion is that they no longer exist, so this isn't an attempt to try and find them still in existence (a bit like the rumours for 'Kestrel' being in Russia somewhere). I'd just like to have knowledge of their story and their fate. Bradley (RCTS Locomotives of the LB&SCR Vol 1) quotes 5 terriers as sold to Pauling in 1902, being nos 36, 39, 649, 652 and 657. The guard irons were removed, dumb buffers provided and tyre washing pipes. 36,39 and 649 were sold for scrap in October 1909, but Surrey and Thames "are thought" to have gone to La Plata, where an unidentified Terrier was observed at work in March 1920. Edited April 5, 2016 by Oldddudders 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomisd Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Bradley (RCTS Locomotives of the LB&SCR Vol 1) quotes 5 terriers as sold to Pauling in 1902, being nos 36, 39, 649, 652 and 657. The guard irons were removed, dumb buffers provided and tyre washing pipes. 36,39 and 649 were sold for scrap in October 1909, but Surrey and Thames "are thought" to have gone to La Plata, where an unidentified Terrier was observed at work in March 1920. OK, my interest has been piqued! The following is a compilation of information from three sources - the aforementioned Mainline to Industry, The Industrial Locomotives of Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire (Industrial Railway Society) and Contractors Locomotives (Industrial Locomotive Society). In 1902, George Pauling & Co acquired the five Terriers from LBSCR. They were used on the contract to build the GW/GC Joint line between Northolt Junction and High Wycombe. This was carried out between 1902 and 1905. The details are as follows. MTI, IRS or ILS denotes where the disposal info comes from (also see the footnote from MLI in post #2). 88/36 Bramley - Acquired 9/1902. Sold 1909 (ILS) Scrapped 10/1909 (IRS) Disposed 1909 (MLI) 87/39 Denmark - Acquired 7/1902. Sold 1909 (ILS) Scrapped 10/19009 Disposed 1909 (MLI) 79/649 Bishopsgate- Acquired 6/1902. To Argentina 1909 (ILS) Scrapped 10/1909 (IRS) La Plata Tramways (MLI) 90/652 Surrey - Acquired 9/1902. Sold 1909 (ILS) Reputedly to FC La Plata, Argentina (IRS) Sold/Scrapped (MLI) 64/657 Thames - Acquired 5/1902. To Argentina? 1909 (ILS) Reputedly to FC La Plata, Argentina (IRS) La Plata Tramways (MLI) Given that the RCTS book notes an unidentified Terrier in 1920, personally I would say that Thames definitely went to Argentina. I would be dubious that more than one loco went. Incidentally there is a very nice photo of Surrey working on the contract in Mainline to Industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 5, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Incidentally there is a very nice photo of Surrey working on the contract in Mainline to Industry. Is that for the GC contract, or the La Plata one? Edited April 5, 2016 by Ian J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomisd Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Is that for the GC contract, or the La Plata one? Yes fair point! The GW/GC contract Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInHisDen Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 On 04/04/2016 at 09:34, Ian J. said: a bit like the rumours for 'Kestrel' being in Russia somewhere What class was kestrel? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 It was a 4000HP diesel prototype built by Brush. Successful I believe but BR were already thinking "HST" by that time so there were no orders and it was sold to Russia. Since then it has become something of a myth or legend that it may still exist somewhere in the former USSR and could one day be re-patriated. I think, however, that there is fairly good evidence that is was scrapped in the 90's. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) On 05/04/2016 at 22:24, nomisd said: OK, my interest has been piqued! The following is a compilation of information from three sources - the aforementioned Mainline to Industry, The Industrial Locomotives of Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire (Industrial Railway Society) and Contractors Locomotives (Industrial Locomotive Society). I think it would be wise to think carefully about regarding these as "three sources", as in fully independent of one another. 'Mainline to Industry' is, I am pretty sure, at least partly derivative, that is based on ILS/IRS sources, rather than an entirely fresh work of research. Bradley is very good on exactly when the LBSCR sold things, and was probably working from original source data, or at least contemporary reports, while both the ILS and IRS are very good on subsequent service with industry, and the best you will get on the final fate of locos. Of the three, the IRS Bucks, Beds & Northants Handbook will probably be the very best source, because I think it is the most recently published, containing the results of the very deep (some might say obsessive) research by IRS members. The "La Plata Question" has long intrigued IRS members, and I think there have been be articles and/or correspondence discussing it in Industrial Railway Record down the years, but I gave away all my copies, so can't check. BTW, I concur with your conclusion that it is doubtful whether more than one went to Argentina. PS: The tramway concerned was almost certainly The La Plata & Ensenada Tramway Co. Ltd., an amalgamation of two horse tramways into one, which in turn was converted into an electric tramway, seeking powers for this in 1907, and obtaining powers and reconstituting itself as an electric tramway in 1909/10. It was British owned, and the date fits nicely with a British contractor being given the job of reconstruction. A quick google told me that copies of the papers relating to the winding-up of the company in its old form in 1908 are in the national archives at Kew! Edited February 17, 2022 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomisd Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 23 hours ago, Nearholmer said: Of the three, the IRS Bucks, Beds & Northants Handbook will probably be the very best source, because I think it is the most recently published, containing the results of the very deep (some might say obsessive) research by IRS members. The "La Plata Question" has long intrigued IRS members, and I think there have been be articles and/or correspondence discussing it in Industrial Railway Record down the years, but I gave away all my copies, so can't check. As the author of one of the IRS (overseas) handbooks, I take that as a compliment ;-) It didn't occur to me to go and look in the Record but at the time of my original posting I didn't actually have a compete set. I do now so will go and have a look... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Here is a picture of Bishopgate as in use by Pauling & Co. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzo Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 I live in Argentina and I will try to investigate further, but to my knowledge they were probably scrapped or abandoned somewhere. That is after all what happened to most steam locomotives in Argentina. Most railways in Argentina were broad gauge or narrow gauge, meaning that there is really only one railway (The Urquiza) that they could have been sold to. The tramway was electrified so there wouldn’t be much use for a steam locomotive on it during the 1920s, so it is likely it was disposed of. During the 1950s a period of railway nationalization took place, so if any of the engines survived until then, they entered ownership by the Argentinian government. I’ll see if i can find any relevant information. 4 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erlestokemanor7812 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 10/12/2022 at 03:40, Lorenzo said: I live in Argentina and I will try to investigate further, but to my knowledge they were probably scrapped or abandoned somewhere. That is after all what happened to most steam locomotives in Argentina. Most railways in Argentina were broad gauge or narrow gauge, meaning that there is really only one railway (The Urquiza) that they could have been sold to. The tramway was electrified so there wouldn’t be much use for a steam locomotive on it during the 1920s, so it is likely it was disposed of. During the 1950s a period of railway nationalization took place, so if any of the engines survived until then, they entered ownership by the Argentinian government. I’ll see if i can find any relevant information. Out of interest, did you find out anymore? Rather interested in the subject, I'm getting as much livery and identity history together of the A1/A1X fleet if you did find anything out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 On 17/02/2022 at 10:29, Barclay said: It was a 4000HP diesel prototype built by Brush. Successful I believe but BR were already thinking "HST" by that time so there were no orders and it was sold to Russia. Since then it has become something of a myth or legend that it may still exist somewhere in the former USSR and could one day be re-patriated. I think, however, that there is fairly good evidence that is was scrapped in the 90's. 1993 comes to mind - a rather sad photo of it dumped in bushes exists....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Halvarras said: 1993 comes to mind - a rather sad photo of it dumped in bushes exists....... It has been suggested that it was gutted and filled with concrete for use as a mobile load. CJI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/10687/the-big-bird-that-flew-too-far-2/ Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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