electrofrog point isolations?

[PeteN92]

So I  have decided on my plan for my new as yet unamed layout however even after having a read I cant get my head around rail joiners with electrofrog points. 

 

Attached below  is a  picture of the track plan and as you can see there are multiple points the back onto each other does all six points of contact need insulating rail joiners or just when the frogs run into each other??  

 

A further considering to take into account is that I have not decided yet wether to stick with DC or take the plunge with DCC.  

 

Would it make difference if I did one of the other?  

 

Regards  

 

Pete  

[ELTEL]

So I  have decided on my plan for my new as yet unamed layout however even after having a read I cant get my head around rail joiners with electrofrog points. 

 

Attached below  is a  picture of the track plan and as you can see there are multiple points the back onto each other does all six points of contact need insulating rail joiners or just when the frogs run into each other??  

where.png

 

A further considering to take into account is that I have not decided yet wether to stick with DC or take the plunge with DCC.  

 

Would it make difference if I did one of the other?  

 

Regards  

 

Pete

 

Hi Pete

 

The two points in the loop are the only one you have to isolate for DC or DCC.

 

I would also always recommend that you have a drop wires from each piece of track and don't rely on the fishplates.

 

I counted eight points in total.

 

Like the track plan.

 

Terry

[Brian]

Hi

I always recommend fitting two IRJs to each Electrofrog points Vee rail ends, then add new rail feeds after the IRJs where required.

By doing this you will not get short circuits occurring due to conflicts with frog rail polarity.  

 

Adding feed droppers to each section of track will mean you have to fit IRJs to the points Vee rails.

 

If you don't fit the rail feeds and rely solely on the points themselves routing the rail power into dead end sidings, then you technically don't have to fit IRJs, But if you did go DCC and need locos stabled in those sidings to have their lights on or sounds on or just shunt them about you will then need to add additional rail feeds to defeat the point isolating the siding.  As soon as one of those feeds is added and no IRJs are fitted a full short circuit will occur...  So just fit the IRJs and add the feeds then it will be ready for whatever you want.

 

BTW if you're DC and have all the feeds and IRJs installed you can simply add an On/Off switch into the siding feed wire and isolate that sidings rails regardless of the points position. Then come DCC just turn on all the switches.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Brian

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

Here's what you need to do

 

First of all I'm going to number the points to 'hopefully' make things clearer.

 

Point 1 is the top left point, 2,3 & 4 are the other 3 on the top most line 

Point 5 is the first point on the bottom line that leads to the kick back siding and 6,7 & 8 are the points in the loops

 

First you need to put power to the left of point 1 AND between points 5 & 6 otherwise you won't be able to power the kick back siding.

 

This means that you will need to insulate between points 1 & 5

 

In the loop, point 6 to 8 needs insulating as does point 7 to 8, 6 to 7 can be left as is.

 

Points 2,3,&4 don't need insulating.

 

If this is N Gauge then it doesn't matter if its DCC or DC, the only consideration being that on DC you could only run two locos as you only have 2 independent power feeds.

 

I have been told that for OO Peco Electrofrog points need modifed for DCC, but as I model in N Gauge, I don't have any personal experience.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[bgman]

Don't know if this helps ?

 

[dhjgreen]

Do check out Brian's web site. You will see it is very comprehensive, so small bites at a time.

Edited April 5, 2016 by dhjgreen

[ELTEL]

Hi Pete

The two points in the loop are the only one you have to isolate for DC or DCC.

I would also always recommend that you have a drop wires from each piece of track and don't rely on the fishplates. (I should have added in doing this means all points need to be isolates)

I counted eight points in total.

Like the track plan.

Terry

[PeteN92]

Thanks for the answers.  As swift an thorough as always on here.  

 

Just to clarify on the diagram that  Brian has done there on the point within the loop that goes to the carriage siding should that also be isolated on the  v side in the diagram  it looks like you have put it on the other side? Is that just a slip of the hand or should that one be on the other side?

 

Also on the Y point at the top right which one technically is the V side of does it not matter?

In the diagram it appears I should isolate the right hand  side or again through lack of understanding the diagram should both inside rails on each side of the Y be isolated ?  

 

Pete  

[Brian]

Hi

As you're using Electrofrog points throughout and you're adding rail feeds to as many track sections as practicable to improve electrical performance, then each point has an IRJ fitted onto the end of each Vee rail.

 

So the Y point has two IRJs on the inner rails which are from the frog and form the Vee.

 

The point in the loop leading to the siding has two IRJs, again each on the end of the Vee rail.

 

They should all be shown, but as the image is quite small enlarging it should reveal them (hopefully!) :-)

[Pete the Elaner]

 

I have been told that for OO Peco Electrofrog points need modifed for DCC, but as I model in N Gauge, I don't have any personal experience.

Not true but I can understand where that comes from.

Good wiring is good wiring whether DC or DCC. The difference is the way the systems react to a short circuit. DC will give a brief hesitation & probably a spark too, so you will get away with the short, but ideally you can wire to protect against this.

DCC will react much more quickly, cutting power for the whole layout (or the affected power district if you have separate power breakers) so you it is more important to protect against this.

 

If you've seen Brian's web site by now, you hopefully won't be intimidated by the extra wiring involved.

 

As previously mentioned, if you wire it up for DC with all track sections switched, you can turn them all on & connect a DCC system. The only extra thing to consider is the total current load if you wanted to have several locos running at the same time, but this is unlikely to be a problem on a small layout.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Pete the Elaner

[PeteN92]

Ok thanks I think I understand that part now, next question 

 

After having a look through your website Brian and reading over and over again.  

 

So  you can modify the electrofrog points by breaking the wires underneath and adding the extra wires across the rails.  

 

If you do this method am I correct in thinking that a polarity switch is needed to be added into the circuit with the point motor and points switch itself  such as the Peco  PL13 (are there other options?)  

 

If I do the modification  is the polarity switch needed? 

 

If I don't modify the electrofrog point is the polarity switch needed?

 

And if I don't modify it and  there is no need for a polarity switch  how do you wire up the electrofrog point to  the points motor.  

 

I will be using gaugemaster pm10 and Hornby points motors  if that helps answer my questions. 

 

This wiring business leaves me like this       in all honesty so as always  thanks for everyone's input.  

 

Pete  

[BR60103]

Pete:

If you modify the points by breaking the connections, a polarity switch is needed. The extra connections for the point rails are a good idea; by the time you fins they're needed it's too late to add them underneath.

if you don't break the connections, you mustn't add the point rail wires. The polarity switch may be a good idea or redundant; you can get interesting results if it changes at a different time than the points do.

 

I am separating the frog and putting in the polarity switch where possible on my current layout.

[ejstubbs]

If you do this method am I correct in thinking that a polarity switch is needed to be added into the circuit with the point motor and points switch itself  such as the Peco  PL13 (are there other options?) 

If you modify the point then you need some means of switching the polarity of the frog.  The PL13 is one way to do it - if you are using Peco point motors, since it is specifically designed to work with them.  Or you can use a point motor with a built-in switch, such as the Seep (aka Gaugemaster PM1) point motor.  Note that some people do not rate the reliability of the switch in the Seep point motor.  Alternatively you can add a microswitch yourself, or look in to using a latching relay.  Bottom line though: if you modify the point, you need something to switch the frog polarity, since you will have disabled the switching that is done automatically by the contact between the point blades and the stock rails.

If I do the modification  is the polarity switch needed?

As above: yes.

 

If I don't modify the electrofrog point is the polarity switch needed?

No.  In that case the frog polarity is switched by contact between the point blade and the stock rail.  However this is not always 100% reliable, for various reasons, hence why some people choose to modify the point.

 

And if I don't modify it and  there is no need for a polarity switch  how do you wire up the electrofrog point to  the points motor. 

You don't.  You just wire up the point motor to the control panel, and the point does the frog polarity switching through the point blades.  No wiring is required to the point itself in that case.

 

I will be using gaugemaster pm10 and Hornby points motors  if that helps answer my questions.

If you are using Gaugemaster PM10 or Hornby point motor, the Peco PL13 switch is not ideal - it's designed as an add-on for the Peco point motors (although it might be bodgable to work with the Gaugemaster or Hornby).  You would probably be better to use a separate microswitch, a latching relay or some other method to achieve the frog polarity switching.

 

If you read around this subject eg in other threads on RMWeb such as this one then you will find plenty of discussion on the pros and cons of the using Peco electrofrog points unmodified.  The two main issues seem to be:

• Poor electrical contact between the point blades and the stock rails, preventing the frog polarity from being switched properly.  In theory this can be avoided by ensuring that the contact areas are always kept scrupulously clean and free of debris eg loose ballast.
• Shorting between the other (non-contacting) point blade and its stock rail.  This can occur because both point blades will be at the same polarity as the frog, meaning that the non-contacting point blade is at the opposite polarity to its adjacent stock rail.  The actual short can then be created by a metal wheel passing along the stock rail and briefly contacting the point blade.  This is more likely with older rolling stock whose wheels do not meet the closer dimensional tolerances that more recent products achieve.  This is also more of a problem with DCC, since DCC controllers are more sensitive to momentary short circuits and tend to shut down temporarily to protect themselves.

FWIW my DC layout (which is only in the early stages of construction atm) currently uses unmodified electrofrog points and I have yet to experience any issues with them.  I am, however, planning to modify the points - and thus use external frog polarity switching - when I commit to fixing the track down permanently.

 

I would suggest that if you're not confident with electrics, if you are using rolling stock produced within the last dozen or so years, if you are not using DCC (which AFAICS you aren't) and if you are prepared to do the necessary maintenance ie keeping the points clean, then you might be better off not trying to make external frog polarity switching work.  On the other hand, as others have said, if you don't do it now then it's not easy to retrofit it once the layout is built.  Your call...

Edited April 14, 2016 by ejstubbs

[smokebox]

The Peco PL-13 switch can be used with the Hornby R8014 point motors in exactly the same way as it is used on the Peco PL-10 motors. It fits just as well and a Hornby R8014 fitted with the Peco PL-13 switch will fit inside the Hornby R8015 lineside hut if you need to use one.

[ejstubbs]

The Peco PL-13 switch can be used with the Hornby R8014 point motors in exactly the same way as it is used on the Peco PL-10 motors.

 

Thanks, I didn't know that.

 

To the OP: It might help to be aware that the wiring for the frog polarity and the wiring for the point motor are completely separate electrically.  They are usually linked mechanically so that the frog polarity switches at the same time as the point blades move - these have to be in sync to avoid short circuits.  But the actuating power for the point motor doesn't - in fact it really mustn't - go anywhere near the rails.

 

It would, in theory, be perfectly possible to operate manually an electrofrog point that has been modified for external frog polarity switching, so long as you had some kind of mechanical-to-electrical linkage (eg a microswitch operated from the point blade tie bar) to change the frog polarity at the same time that the 'hand of god' changes the points.  (I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone on RMWeb has a layout that works this way.)

[PeteN92]

I'm starting to think it may be worth the extra effort for the future if I want to change to dcc. If I chose not to the use the peco accessory switch and instead a micro switch. Would the same switch as the one that changes the point motor be used in one circuit or would the two be on separate circuits / need two separate switches?  

 

Or as the post above states does it need to be a mechanical link?

 

Pete

Edited April 14, 2016 by darkflight

[Suzie]

If you want to future proof without committing, cut the links under the point and add two dropper wires connected to the switch rails as well as two wires connected to the stock rails. With the frog dropper these are the only five wires you require, and in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch, if things prove to be unreliable it is easy to rewire with a frog switch under the baseboard without disrupting anything.

[ejstubbs]

If I chose not to the use the peco accessory switch and instead a micro switch. Would the same switch as the one that changes the point motor be used in one circuit or would the two be on separate circuits / need two separate switches?

 

Or as the post above states does it need to be a mechanical link?

 

They need to be separate switches.  As I said above, the point motor power circuit and the frog polarity switching circuit are completely separate electrically.  The microswitch is the mechanical linkage: it translates the movement of the point blades in to the switching of the frog polarity.  The Peco PL13 is just a microswitch built in to a chassis that fits together with the PL10 point motor: the PL13's microswitch is triggered by the movement of the actuator rod that moves the point blades.  If you use a separate, bog-standard microswitch of the type that you can buy from Maplin or RS, you just need to fit it in a way that gets the mechanical movement of the point motor or point blades to trigger the switch itself.  The point motor switch switches ~16V to power the point motor.  The frog polarity switch switches the correct "side" of the track power feed to the frog.  Different circuits, different power requirements and totally different jobs.

 

By the way, don't be fazed by the use of the term "microswitch": all it is is a physically small switch which needs only a small actuating force to make it switch a circuit.  They're used where the switch is required to be operated by a small mechanical movement rather than, say, someone's big fat finger.

 

The other very important reason why they have to be separate switches is that the switch that actuates the point motor and the switch that controls the frog polarity function in significantly different ways.  The frog polarity switch must be a "stay put" switch like your average light switch ie switch it one way and it stays switched that way until you switch it the other way.  If you try to use that kind of switch for the point motor then you'll end up with a burnt-out point motor.  The point motor switch must be momentary (sometimes called a "passing contact" switch)*, giving just a burst of power to one or the other of the point motor's solenoid coils.  If you use a switch like this to control the frog polarity then you will end up with a more or less permanently 'dead' frog, which will prevent you trains from running through the point.

 

Suzie's suggestion of future-proofing - by modifying the points but wiring the frog polarity control under the baseboard to use the point blade contact with the stock rails - might be the right way to go if you are still struggling to grasp what the microswitch achieves.  In fact I might even do something similar myself when I come to fixing my track down permanently.

 

(At the risk of confusing things: another approach is to use the point motor power pulse to also trigger an electrical device called a latching relay to control the frog polarity.  This is not a mechanical linkage to the point mechanism, but achieves the same result in a similar way - basically, by having a second solenoid motor hidden inside the relay enclosure.  However, if frog polarity control using a microswitch is beyond your grasp then you probably don't want to go down this path either.)

 

* I am ignoring stall point motors like Tortoise and Cobalt: these do use "stay put" type switches but they are still powered by a separate circuit from that powering the track.  They also have built-in switches to control frog-polarity and other functions eg LED control panel indicators.  They are also more expensive on a unit basis than bog standard solenoid point motors like Peco and Seep/Gaugemaster.

Edited April 14, 2016 by ejstubbs

[John ks]

If you want to future proof without committing, cut the links under the point and add two dropper wires connected to the switch rails as well as two wires connected to the stock rails. With the frog dropper these are the only five wires you require, and in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch, if things prove to be unreliable it is easy to rewire with a frog switch under the baseboard without disrupting anything.

 

What Suzie says is correct but you may need only two dropper wires connected to the switch rails and extending the existing bare wire connected to the frog.

The two wires connected to the stock rails are the same as the track feed wires and wont be necessary if there is a track feed already feeding that block.

If your not sure then put them (The two wires connected to the stock rails) in and connect them to the track feed

See the top RHS of the diagram. i.e. Add feeds here and extend this wire. Join these three wires together (imagine that the point switch & the thin black wires aren't there)

In this configuration the point will work the same as if it weren't modified

If you decide you need a frog switch then separate the 3 wires and reconnect the switch rail droppers to the track feed as shown by the dotted wires & connect the frog dropper to the point motor switch as shown with the narrow black wires

 

 

 

I agree with Brians diagram, this is the way I wire my points

The diagram on the Left may give a clearer indication of where the insulated joiners go

 

John

[Crosland]

To the OP: It might help to be aware that the wiring for the frog polarity and the wiring for the point motor are completely separate electrically.  They are usually linked mechanically so that the frog polarity switches at the same time as the point blades move - these have to be in sync to avoid short circuits.  

 

If the the frog is isolated then you will not get shorts. This only happens if you do a half-assedhearted conversion by trying to switch the frog without isolating it from the switch rails.

 

Andrew

[Dave0-6-0]

Hi. I'm a newbie in the process of switching over from Peco Insulfrog points to Electrofrogs. I'm DC, not DCC, but I mainly model shunting in goods yards using a mixture of old and new 0-6-0 locos, so I'm simply trying to improve slow speed running over Medium points. I've tried to read through a lot of the stuff and am aware I could just leave the Electrofrogs as out-the-box but this will rely on good contact between the stock and switch rails. I understood some of Suzie's article posted on April 14, 2016,  saying: 

 

"If you want to future proof without committing, cut the links under the point and add two dropper wires connected to the switch rails as well as two wires connected to the stock rails. With the frog dropper these are the only five wires you require, and in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch, if things prove to be unreliable it is easy to rewire with a frog switch under the baseboard without disrupting anything."

 

But I don't understand the bit "in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch". If I just do the cutting and dropper wires in the first part of the quote, I think there will be no power to the frog at all (?), so somehow I need to get power to the frog, and it needs to switch between red and black according to points direction. How will attaching the solid frog wire dropper work if it's attached to both the red and black switch rail droppers at the same time? I'm not actually sure what the fixed wire is attached to already on the point and I think there are two of these solid wore droppers? I know I could solve the problem by switching polarity using something like the PECO PL-10e switch attachment, but for various reasons I'm going to have to use surface point motors in a lot of places, and stuff like the Peco PL-11 won't do that (not sure about the Gaugemaster PM-20?).

 

Grateful any help for a newbie!

 

Dave

[AndyID]

Hi Dave,

 

You connect three droppers together. One from the frog and the two from the switch rails. Electrically that puts the the point back to "as supplied" from Peco with the advantage that you wont have to rip it off your baseboard if you decide to switch power to the frog with an external switch of some sort in the future.

 

Cheers!

Andy

[Suzie]

Yes, this bit is key:-

 

"you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper"

[DCB]

This wire snipping comes from scale live frog points where the gap between wheel back and open point blade is so tight the flange can touch the point blade while the tyre is on the rail at opposite polarity and short it out.    It can happen even on code 100 with DC where it produces sparks and on DCC where everything shuts down.   Snipping the wires and having the feed to the blades always at the same polarity to the adjacent rail solves this issue.  This needs doing before the point is used or the shorting can damage the blade pivot and blade contact.  If you switch the frog with a separate switch the point still works if the blades are not making contact, in fact lots of people have live frog points with effectively dead  point blades because neither pivot nor blades make contact and are unaware of it except their locos stutter a bit.    The old Farish points had flexible rather than pivoted blades and avoided this issue.   Personally I use bog standard Peco OO gauge live frog points indoors and bog standard live frog points with frog polarity switches added out in the garden.

 

[Dave0-6-0]

Thanks for your replies. It's really good to get feedback. Can I just follow up to be absolutely clear!

 

1. When you say " You connect three droppers together. One from the frog and the two from the switch rails" you literally mean solder an extension from the frog dropper and the two switch rail droppers all together (or perhaps connect them via a block terminal to make an easier job)? One of the switch rails will be +ve and one -ve but I guess I can connect them together as only one will ever be live (when the rail is switched in that direction)? I guess this then passes the power down to the frog and the correct polarity will come with it?

2. When you say "from the switch rails" I'm guessing you mean from the non-moving part (where the droppers come down from the exposed metal parts) just before the snipping area? And not from the moving parts!

3. Stupid question coming up: After I've done all this, doesn't this take me full circle back to relying on good clean contact between the switch rails and the stock rails (in this case to energise the frog and indeed change its polarity) which is what I thought this process was designed to avoid? Or have I missed the point (again)!

 

Dave