MRJ 248

[micknich2003]

Jason, I bought a lathe in 1969, its main purpose being to turn loco' fittings etc. Until it arrived, and apart from reading books and the "Model Engineer", I had no experiance of using one.  I remember to this day, and after unpacking it, putting a sawn off 6in nail into the chuck, a tool into the tool post and my first turning job commenced. You don't know what you can achive untill you try.

[jjb1970]

Lathes are wonderful machines but not cheap and they do need some skill if you want good results. At one time large industrial machines built to last forever and be capable of almost continuous heavy duty work could be picked up cheaper than modellers tools thanks to the de-industrialisation process. Another good source was army surplus, I was on a ship once and we bought a new lathe from the army, beautiful machine it was and the price was absurdly low.

I think that claiming that modellers "need" tools like lathes is going over the top. I used to use on-board machine tools out of hours to do modelling jobs and there is no doubt that you can do some things far more quickly but since leaving the sea I have not had access to such tools and still model.

[Arthur]

 

 

And in this hobby being a railway modeller is a far broader church than just loco building. I can see a drill press being useful, though not essential, if you are scratch building locos and frames. In the past I've drilled axle holes in brass frames with a hand held drill.

 

Other than that, for rolling stock, and buildings and scenery in particular, a drill press seems about as useful as a chocolate fire guard. I've got three, a modellers version and two smaller engineering sized ones. I cannot recall the last time I used any of them for a modeling project.

[Barry Ten]

I would agree with Arthur that unless you are scratchbuilding frames, you can do without a drill press. The one time I needed one, for a non-modelling project, I was better off knowing a mate who had one and knew how to use it properly. He also knew how to use taps and dies - another black art as far as I'm concerned, but very satisfying to watch someone who knows what they're doing. Locomotive kits can be put together with little more than basic hand tools, in my experience.

 

Tools are funny things, though. There are some that are useful luxuries, and some you wonder how you ever managed before. I would be lost without my mini-drill type thing, and one of the most useful pieces of kit I own is a cheap combination wire stripper and trimmer, which makes layout wiring almost fun. I also don't regret buying a cheap pair of digital calipers - I think I got them from Lidl - but they're incredibly useful.

 

I enjoyed the issue, anyway - but then I generally do.

[2mmMark]

Having progressed to the stage where I now have a small lathe, a small mill and a small drill press, what I feel about these is how I image Americans to feel about their rifles, you'll have to prise them out of my cold dead hands.

 

What these give me is time. I know that I can work to a reasonable accuracy, having filed up gauge blocks by hand. I also know how slow and tedious that is for me.

 

The lathe was thirdhand in 1984, the drill press I inherited and the mill was bought new for a very reasonable price on eBay.  In total, less than a reasonably decent flat screen TV.  I reckon I get better entertainment value from them than a TV.

 

Mark

[t-b-g]

Apart from using the lathe to make chimney pots, the milling machine has come in useful for removing lumps of metal from a RTR loco chassis weight block, to make room for a DCC chip, so it isn't just about scratchbuilding locos.

 

A good friend of mine uses his milling machine to square off rough edges in plastic wagon kits so he gets a nice square edge, better than he could with a file.

 

He also mills sheets of plasticard into individual bricks for wagon loads, so perhaps he is a bit odd!

 

At least a couple of friends use their machine tools not for actually producing components but mainly to make themselves assembly jigs and aids. That is an interesting branch of the hobby by itself.

 

I think it is fair to say that those of us who like making things are always going to find use for tools that the RTR folk would never need. Unless the latest Hornby/Bachmann boxes need a milling machine to get them open!

 

It is another case of demonstrating the great variety of interests and methods within the hobby, looking at the way different people use different tools to get to where they want to be.

[John_Hughes]

I'd certainly agree that what good tools - machine or otherwise - give you is time. My old Unimat does excellent service as a milling machine, lathe and vertical drill, but does nothing that I couldn't do (more slowly, and probably much worse!) with files and a hand-held drill.

 

But I find that the most useful tools - in the sense that I use them every day - are the good old Archimedean drill and the piercing saw.

[t-b-g]

I'd certainly agree that what good tools - machine or otherwise - give you is time. My old Unimat does excellent service as a milling machine, lathe and vertical drill, but does nothing that I couldn't do (more slowly, and probably much worse!) with files and a hand-held drill.

 

But I find that the most useful tools - in the sense that I use them every day - are the good old Archimedean drill and the piercing saw.

 

It may sound sad but one of the greatest pleasures I get from the hobby is to mark out a bit of brass or nickel silver, get it on the slotted saw table and to see just how close to the line and straight I can cut. The satisfaction that comes from getting a dead straight cut that hardly needs cleaning up still gives me a buzz. I never got an Archimedian drill, as I just have a variety of pin chucks and an electric mini drill but I really should obtain one!

 

I know that people enjoy their hobby in many different ways. For me, personally, there is not much that beats the satisfaction of having an idea of what I want to build, finding or preparing a drawing and then getting some sheets of plastic or metal and getting cutting. Whether it be a loco, carriage, wagon, building, pointwork, signal or anything else, sitting at the workbench using my hands, some basic tools and my brain (the least well functioning bit of the arrangement) to create something from nothing, Next in the personal satisfaction stakes comes building a kit, especially if it is a poor one that needs a good amount of fettling.

 

Yet I also enjoy "playing trains" and can get a great deal of pleasure from running a layout if it is interesting and challenging, even if it is pure RTR.

[corneliuslundie]

I fully realise that there are many branches of model railways where the machine tools under discussion are necessary. I hope I wasn't seen as suggesting that no-one needs them. I am sure John Hayes, for example, would have been pretty helpless to do the kind of exquisite modelling he did without the right tools. But I was surprised to get so many responses.

My real secret is that I have the time because I am retired and, more important, there is no TV in the house! And I don't have an airbrush either, though I have used one and found it very useful for the task for which it was used. One day I may get one, though not the one reviewed.

I am not quite in the Peter Denny school (cereal packets, recycled wood, bits of tin and immense skill and patience) and I shall never achieve his standards, but when one looks at what he and his contemporaries produced it makes me wonder how far we have actually progressed. Vide Metropolitan Junction.

But to get back to the earlier discussion,what I would really like to see in MRJ is a return of something like No 1 Shop. I have a feeling that quite a few of those who have commented on this issue feel the same. Is there another Iain Rice waiting in the wings please?

Jonathan

[jjb1970]

The hobby is whatever we want it to be. To me that is why model railways have been such a resilient hobby over so many years, in a way it is not so much "a" hobby as lots and lots of hobbies practised by individuals.

 

On tools, if people havve a lathe and other workshop tools then they're great and do make many jobs much easier (or perhaps less time consuming is a better way of putting it), I'd not tell anybody not to buy such tools. My comment was based more on recognising the difference between desire and need. People might desire such tools but I don't think people need them to make models in the true sense of need.

[t-b-g]

I think that we are actually all basically in agreement. That some types of machine tool are nice to have and can save time on some types of jobs but they are hardly the essentials that the article makes them out to be.

[Loconuts]

Oh dear, I think I started a storm in a tea cup over the need for machine tools in the model hobby.

 

I will lay down the gauntlet to all those superb modelers who can scratch build using hand drills and files by publishing your efforts and wow us. No kits but scratched built models only. A safety note 'The use of files in a rotating machine is a very dangerous practice and can lead to the loss of an eye' basic engineering safety practice taught to all engineering apprentices.

 

Many colleges run evening classes in Model Engineering and will give you full instruction on the correct use of a lathe or milling machine.

 

The references to Peter Denny and his work is wrong, his models are very basic, which he himself said many years ago. His aim was to give an overall general impression which he did superbly.

 

Loconuts

[Penlan]

When I first owned a car - in 1961, a 1934 Austin 7, which I still have, I wanted a set of Whitworth spanners.
I'm tempted to say I can't move for spanners now, though who has my 13/16th's ones, I don't know.

I have just a larg'ish pillar drill for car work, etc.,

I have an early Emco lathe (all metal), a small pillar drill etc., based in my modelling area, they have much more use in other, domestic, scenarios though.

The Emco came with every add-on, bar a vertical miller.

Almost new. It was in an auction in Truro and my winning bid was £75.  Lucky me.

[Dunsignalling]

Drill press? Some people can drill perpendicular holes without one, some can't, but that's probably an innate ability rather than a learned skill.

 

The critical thing that machine tools deliver is consistency.

 

John

[Arthur]

 

Oh dear, I think I started a storm in a tea cup over the need for machine tools in the model hobby.

 

I will lay down the gauntlet to all those superb modelers who can scratch build using hand drills and files by publishing your efforts and wow us. 

Loconuts

  

 

You originally said,

 

I did disagree with Horace Batchelor's statement, of modelers in the smaller scales not requiring machine tools, total rubbish all modelers, what ever scale they work in, should at least own a good vertical bench drill

 

Loconuts

Nothing about those scratch building locomotives but 'all modellers'.

 

We are pointing out that all modellers do not scratchbuild locomotives therefore all modellers do not need a vertical bench drill.

 

And, I repeat, I have made simple loco frames drilling brass strip with a hand held mini drill.

 

So our contention stands, not all modellers need a vertical bench drill.

[2mmMark]

OK, let's open another can of worms.  There are power/machine tools which are invaluable for baseboard & scenic work. The nice thing about tools of this nature is you can amortise them with the Domestic Authority for DIY activities.  Of course this does mean that one has to show some evidence of said activity.

 

One of these tools I'd recommend is a 13mm vertical pillar drill.  Very useful for baseboard "intricately framed portable storage shelf" building.

 

 

Mark

[Dunsignalling]

OK, let's open another can of worms.  There are power/machine tools which are invaluable for baseboard & scenic work. The nice thing about tools of this nature is you can amortise them with the Domestic Authority for DIY activities.  Of course this does mean that one has to show some evidence of said activity.

 

One of these tools I'd recommend is a 13mm vertical pillar drill.  Very useful for baseboard "intricately framed portable storage shelf" building.

 

 

Mark

I've never felt the need for more than a battery powered drill-driver for the basics and a mains drill for hole-saws myself. I did buy a stand for my venerable B&D 400H (it was a fiver on a market stall so irresistible) but I hardly ever use it.

 

B&Q cut the ply into the required widths so even the jig-saw doesn't come out of its box too often any more.

 

Mind you, I go for straight, square and presentable rather than aiming at cabinet-maker style finish.

 

John

[Arthur]

 

Noah built the Ark without power tools.

 

I rest my case.

[The Stationmaster]

Noah built the Ark without power tools.

 

I rest my case.

 

Back in the 1930s my dad and the village carpenter he was apprenticed to built an entire gypsy caravan without power tools.

[Porcy Mane]

Noah built the Ark without power tools.

 Ah but he observed plenty of his guests using tools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBuPiC3ArL8&list=PLlkWN72_Cl7BILZ8gqY1JS--MaPtovbbe

I bet if he could have learnt how to harness electricity he would have built his boat a lot quicker.

 

And installed some bilge pumps.

 

P

[Captain Kernow]

I have both a lathe and a vertical drill press thingey. The lathe I bought second-hand from a nice chap on this forum and the vertical drill was bought new from Lidl or Aldi, can't remember which.

 

Although I haven't done any modelling for almost two years, I've had these items a lot longer than that. Both are still in their boxes, packed away, never been used, waiting for some unspecified time in the future when the runes will be correctly aligned with Jupiter and my mojo will re-appear from the stone under which it must currently be hiding.

 

By far the best tool I've ever bought (actually it was a present from CTMK several years ago), is my Optivisor.

[t-b-g]

Oh dear, I think I started a storm in a tea cup over the need for machine tools in the model hobby.

 

I will lay down the gauntlet to all those superb modelers who can scratch build using hand drills and files by publishing your efforts and wow us. No kits but scratched built models only. A safety note 'The use of files in a rotating machine is a very dangerous practice and can lead to the loss of an eye' basic engineering safety practice taught to all engineering apprentices.

 

Many colleges run evening classes in Model Engineering and will give you full instruction on the correct use of a lathe or milling machine.

 

The references to Peter Denny and his work is wrong, his models are very basic, which he himself said many years ago. His aim was to give an overall general impression which he did superbly.

 

Loconuts

 

Name one component or part that most modellers building a loco would want to make that cannot be done except by a machine tool. I will post a photo of one that has been done by hand and explain how it was made.

 

Please do not go down the route of wheels or motors as the vast majority of modellers will buy such parts.

 

The locos on Buckingham may have suffered some wear and tear over up to 70 years of running but most ended up being fully detailed including brakes, sand pipes, lamp irons etc. What more do you want?

 

[corneliuslundie]

Please no-one feel that they have stirred up any kind of nastiness. It has been an interesting discussion, reflecting different views as to what people want from our diverse hobby. It would be very boring if we were all the same.

When I made my first comment I made it clear that my scratch building does not include locos. Perhaps I should also have made it clear that I buy components when I can. I simply reflected that for the kind of modelling I enjoy machine tools are not really very useful. I have turned up buffer housings in the chuck of a power drill when nothing was suitable commercially, but I find it easier to buy a component which is 95% correct and modify it slightly to match my needs than to start from scratch.

I greatly admire those who can start from basic metal and build exquisite locos, the likes of Guy Williams. But I equally admire, and in fact feel more akin to, the Peter Dennys of this world who want to create a convincing section of railway. I am well aware of the standard of Peter's modelling having had the books on his work for many years and having read them several times.

In fact if I have a real hero in the world of modelling it is Roye England  who as far as I am aware was not strong on loco building. If only I could build buildings like his . . .

It was suggested that we post examples of our scratch building. I refer you to my Sarn thread under Railways of Wales. You can easily tell which items are scratch built and which are kits. There are numerous Rhymney Railway wagons in the cupboard, possibly not brilliant models but models which will serve for my layout Nantcwmdu when I start it (South Wales RR/GWR joint). I think that apart from the large fleet of coal wagons, there are only three RR vehicles which are even kit built - and one of those was sold as GWR but I spotted that it is actually ex RR. I doubt if there are many other models of most of those prototypes in existence (though I would love to see any which do exist).

I admit that there are probably only a minority of modellers who research the correct sheep breeds for their area and period, who can happily discuss endlessly on RMWeb the niceties of Edwardian fashions, or who care what year the RR started painting its wagons grey instead of red. But I am happy to be one of them.

By the way, I have had a railway room/workshop for the past three years, though even that sometimes has to be evacuated to become a bedroom for visitors. Before I went abroad I had room for a layout in the garage but it was not a suitable place for modelling. While abroad, as stated above, it was definitely kitchen table or equivalent. I am curious as to whether those who do have lathes and/or pillar drills have dedicated workshops. If not, where do they keep such equipment?

And I lied. I do have  very small. simple, modular lathe/pillar drill, though it is currently out of commission. I am the (proud?) owner of a Unimat 1 - one of those plastic modular affairs. Unfortunately, I have the chuck jammed on the headstock (it was put there so I could drill some accurately centred holes) and can find no way of removing it without danger of destroying the headstock. I don't really miss it but it would sometimes be useful for very small light turning and drilling jobs. Anyone any suggestions?

Please keep up the banter.

Jonathan

[Loconuts]

Name one component or part that most modellers building a loco would want to make that cannot be done except by a machine tool. I will post a photo of one that has been done by hand and explain how it was made.

 

Please do not go down the route of wheels or motors as the vast majority of modellers will buy such parts.

 

The locos on Buckingham may have suffered some wear and tear over up to 70 years of running but most ended up being fully detailed including brakes, sand pipes, lamp irons etc. What more do you want?

 

Buckingham 8th & 9th April 2008 039.jpg

 

Fluted Coupling rods in steel, there is one.

 

Loconuts

[BlackRat]

How long I wonder, before the essentials will include a 3D printer, PC and a laser cutter........

 

It seems we are almost there?