MRJ 248

[Phil Parker]

That's too harsh, Phil.

 

If John (and others, no doubt) are happy with the approach that John has described, then good luck to them.

 

I think most of us on here can recognise 'consumerism' when it appears, and perhaps some of us actually wish to partake of it! Whatever next?!

 

I was basing it PURELY on the phrase:

 

If you can buy it better than you can make it, then buy it.

 

If you can make it better than you can buy it, then make it.

 

Which to me looks like a great way to de-skill the hobby. Maybe I'm stupid, but to me this is a craft based hobby and I'd hate to see it change to a credit card based one. I know I'm fighting againast the tide and should probably give up and accept that the future is buying everything in rather than trying to persuade people to learn skills I (in my stupidity) think they might enjoy.

 

As it is, John doesn't adhere to the phrase - He's building kits and scratchbuilding buildings. But, unless the work is breathtakingly good then there WILL be someone out there who can do better for money, which taking the phrase literally, means building should stop and buying should start.

 

You notice I haven't added any of the unmentioned caveats, such as cost/economics/pleasure that are actually applied in real life.

 

To pick up John's point about being an "average modeller" - not if you build loco kits you aren't! Maybe 30 years ago, but nowadays, speaking to people at shows, you find kitbuilding a very rare pastime. Tony Wright says the same, perhaps with a more apocalyptic tone, but it's the same point. More power to the elbow (and fingers) to anyone like John who is getting stuff done on the workbench.

 

We all enjoy a bit of retail therapy and I get the point about making kits of prototypes where RTR models exist, but when ALL that matters is holding a new shiny thing in your hand, I feel something has been lost.

[Ruston]

To pick up John's point about being an "average modeller" - not if you build loco kits you aren't! Maybe 30 years ago, but nowadays, speaking to people at shows, you find kitbuilding a very rare pastime. Tony Wright says the same, perhaps with a more apocalyptic tone, but it's the same point. More power to the elbow (and fingers) to anyone like John who is getting stuff done on the workbench.

 

Maybe you're speaking to the wrong people and going to the wrong shows? Go to a Gauge O Guild show and I'll bet you that kit and scratch builders will outnumber people who buy RTR.

[BG John]

I was basing it PURELY on the phrase:

 

If you can buy it better than you can make it, then buy it.

 

If you can make it better than you can buy it, then make it.

 

Which to me looks like a great way to de-skill the hobby. Maybe I'm stupid, but to me this is a craft based hobby and I'd hate to see it change to a credit card based one. I know I'm fighting againast the tide and should probably give up and accept that the future is buying everything in rather than trying to persuade people to learn skills I (in my stupidity) think they might enjoy.

I'm working towards:

If you can buy it better than you can make it, either:

- Practice making until you can produce something as good or better, or

- If you can't make it better, get the satisfaction of having made it yourself to the best of your ability

 

I've got quite a lot of projects on my to-do list where there is an expensive kit available, but I'd rather try to scratchbuild, or bash a cheaper kit or RTR model. This is partly to save money, but also because I want to do it myself. There's not a lot of RTR available that suits me anyway, and what is available would need major changes. Why follow the herd when you can create something different? I've bought some new RTR recently to get me started on various projects, but apart from my O gauge Dapol Terriers, I'm not that satisfied with having spent the money on it, and would much rather have bought something secondhand to knock about, or scratchbuilt it, but life's too short to do everything. A layout full of RTR locos and stock, and RTP buildings, or piles of boxes cluttering up the house, would be the most unsatisfying form of "modelling" I could imagine.

[Captain Kernow]

There comes a time in life, though, when you may as well buy the excellent RTR offering, so that you can use your limited time available to build/construct something else.

[BG John]

There comes a time in life, though, when you may as well buy the excellent RTR offering, so that you can use your limited time available to build/construct something else.

It seems to me that the latest excellent RTR offerings mean spending £100-150, then at least half as much again on a new chassis to convert them to EM or P4, because they've been designed to be almost impossible to regauge, then chop them about to backdate them to an earlier condition, then repaint them. So bashing an old and cheap RTR version makes much more sense. Otherwise I'd be forced to model periods and locations that don't interest me that much. I'd rather model a small version of what I want, than spend loads of money modelling a bigger version of what I don't want!

[jjb1970]

This may come as a surprise, but to most people we're all big kids playing with toys whether we model fine scale or just stick a train set down on the carpet. Ultimately the hobby is about enjoying whatever aspect of it you participate in. Whether that is scratch building, kit building, collecting or anything else. If people like fine scale scratch or kit building then that is great, and i have real admiration for such modelling. I don't however see it as being in any way more worthy than any other branch of the hobby. If people enjoy buying rtr then good luck to them. The reality is that the difference between fine scale and playing with a train set is far smaller than the gulf between model enthusiasts and those who think we're all bonkers. Skills take many forms, as does pleasure. I wouldn't judge anybody's skills or value as a person from their modelling preferences, but that's just my opinion. No offence intended.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm working towards:

If you can buy it better than you can make it, either:

- Practice making until you can produce something as good or better, or

- If you can't make it better, get the satisfaction of having made it yourself to the best of your ability

 

I've got quite a lot of projects on my to-do list where there is an expensive kit available, but I'd rather try to scratchbuild, or bash a cheaper kit or RTR model. This is partly to save money, but also because I want to do it myself. There's not a lot of RTR available that suits me anyway, and what is available would need major changes. Why follow the herd when you can create something different? I've bought some new RTR recently to get me started on various projects, but apart from my O gauge Dapol Terriers, I'm not that satisfied with having spent the money on it, and would much rather have bought something secondhand to knock about, or scratchbuilt it, but life's too short to do everything. A layout full of RTR locos and stock, and RTP buildings, or piles of boxes cluttering up the house, would be the most unsatisfying form of "modelling" I could imagine.

But railway modelling is a many-faceted hobby and there is a big menu of activities to choose from according to ones interests and abilities, even if you only involve yourself in one or two of them.

 

Aside from those rich enough to get an entire 'turnkey' layout built professionally, almost everyone makes something, be it baseboard construction, track laying, wiring, making scenery or devising a realistic timetable/operating sequence. I know several people who are better than I at one or more of these and I consider them to be "Railway Modellers" even though they don't construct locos or rolling stock. Most are involved in groups/clubs along with others who cover the areas they don't and their productivity often puts me to shame.

 

Locomotive modelling and Railway modelling have a connection, but they are not the same thing; some people do both, some don't. Not everybody can, or indeed wants to make everything on their own, social contact and co-operation is very rewarding, too.

 

John

[t-b-g]

Or until the fish run out

 

They can't run out, They have no legs.

 

Boom boom.....

[Penlan]

This may come as a surprise, but to most people we're all big kids playing with toys whether we model fine scale or just stick a train set down on the carpet. 

I seem to recall the Cardiff Club (that's Model Railways not Football or Rugby), always called their layouts 'The Trainset'.

[Phil Parker]

Maybe you're speaking to the wrong people and going to the wrong shows? Go to a Gauge O Guild show and I'll bet you that kit and scratch builders will outnumber people who buy RTR.

 

Depends on your definition of "wrong". Most of my shows nowadays are the Warners ones where I'm meeting the general modellers. That's how I gauge the level I need to set my articles at and also pick up feedback for future projects.

 

Having been to many GOG shows, you will find less RTR so even if people want to buy it, they can't. On the other hand, I have watched many people buy a kit and prompty hand it to someone on another stand for building. Is that any different from buying RTR other than the price?

 

The point is, the "average" modeller is very different from the person you'd find 3 decades ago. I'd even say the average MRJ reader is different - looking at early issues there is a lot of very pragmatic engineering from Rice & Co. Today's reader is better supplied with etched bits and the quality of the end result is astonishing in many cases. However, Rice would turn out several layouts in the time taken for a rake of perfect wagons. I still find his wagon books well worth a read.

[Loconuts]

No, it keeps you a good little consumer.

 

The "I can't do it as well as..." attitude is why we have "modellers" who can't/won't put real coal in a tender, prefering to pay someone else to do it. For them, this isn't a craft based hobby, it's a credit card based one.

 

There will always be someone who can make something "better" than you but for me, there is pleasure in the process of making something. Maybe the end result won't be as perfect as the product of a factory in China, but it means something to me in a way that a bought item can never do.

 

I'd suggest we need a version of this:

 

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.

 

Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

I agree with this and judging from some of the RTR products coming from China it is not difficult to make better and more accurate models. But it has been said before Railway Modeling is a broad church and what ever makes you happy and satisfied it is up to the individual.

 

I get enjoyment from making my own and get great satisfaction from doing so. The more I do the better I get and gain more experience.

 

Loconuts

[Phil Parker]

I'm working towards:

If you can buy it better than you can make it, either:

- Practice making until you can produce something as good or better, or

- If you can't make it better, get the satisfaction of having made it yourself to the best of your ability

 

I've got quite a lot of projects on my to-do list where there is an expensive kit available, but I'd rather try to scratchbuild, or bash a cheaper kit or RTR model. This is partly to save money, but also because I want to do it myself. There's not a lot of RTR available that suits me anyway, and what is available would need major changes. Why follow the herd when you can create something different? I've bought some new RTR recently to get me started on various projects, but apart from my O gauge Dapol Terriers, I'm not that satisfied with having spent the money on it, and would much rather have bought something secondhand to knock about, or scratchbuilt it, but life's too short to do everything. A layout full of RTR locos and stock, and RTP buildings, or piles of boxes cluttering up the house, would be the most unsatisfying form of "modelling" I could imagine.

 

Oy! York! Why can I only click agree once on this?! Or why isn't there a really, really really agree button?!

[Porcy Mane]

They can't run out, They have no legs.

 So Tony,

How come they can ride a bicycle?

 

P

[Ruston]

Depends on your definition of "wrong". Most of my shows nowadays are the Warners ones where I'm meeting the general modellers. That's how I gauge the level I need to set my articles at and also pick up feedback for future projects.

 

Having been to many GOG shows, you will find less RTR so even if people want to buy it, they can't. On the other hand, I have watched many people buy a kit and prompty hand it to someone on another stand for building. Is that any different from buying RTR other than the price?

 

The point is, the "average" modeller is very different from the person you'd find 3 decades ago. I'd even say the average MRJ reader is different - looking at early issues there is a lot of very pragmatic engineering from Rice & Co. Today's reader is better supplied with etched bits and the quality of the end result is astonishing in many cases. However, Rice would turn out several layouts in the time taken for a rake of perfect wagons. I still find his wagon books well worth a read.

You said "but nowadays, speaking to people at shows, you find kitbuilding a very rare pastime." When I say wrong I mean you are going to the wrong sort of shows if you want to find kit and scratchbuilders. If you go to general shows, where most of the items are RTR, then that's the impression you're going to get but it doesn't mean that kit and scratchbuilding is a rare pastime.

 

I don't doubt that there are some people at GOG shows who get their kits built by someone else but they're in the minority and of the thousands of people who do O gauge, most are going to be kit and scratchbuilders themelves because, as you acknowledge, there is less RTR (than say 00) and few people's pockets are deep enough to get someone else to build things for them. I think the same is true of other scales and gauges. 2mm OO9, O-16.5, 3mm etc. You have to kit or scratch in many scales or you won't have anything to put on the track.

 

 

The term "average modeller" - I don't undertand it. How do you define it?

[jjb1970]

If somebody buys a kit and pays somebody to build it then;

 

the buyer gets a unique model they wouldn't otherwise have

the kit supplier gets a sale, helping sustain their business

a skilled modeller makes a bit out of their skills

 

To me that is a win win win.

[Phil Parker]

You said "but nowadays, speaking to people at shows, you find kitbuilding a very rare pastime." When I say wrong I mean you are going to the wrong sort of shows if you want to find kit and scratchbuilders. If you go to general shows, where most of the items are RTR, then that's the impression you're going to get but it doesn't mean that kit and scratchbuilding is a rare pastime

But if you want to gauge the hobby (which I need to do) then going to a specialist show distorts the view. The popular general shows are a better guide.

 

If I went to a S gauge show, I'd find no RTR buyers but that doesn't mean everyone in the hobby is a scratchbuilder.

[jjnewitt]

But if you want to gauge the hobby (which I need to do) then going to a specialist show distorts the view. The popular general shows are a better guide.

 

If I went to a S gauge show, I'd find no RTR buyers but that doesn't mean everyone in the hobby is a scratchbuilder.

 

Your last bit is true but I'd suggest that if you want to 'gauge the hobby' as a whole the big general shows such as the ones put on by Warners provide equally as distorted a view. The last one I went to was back in 2013. Indeed I was greeted by one trader with 'what are you doing here, I wouldn't expect to see you at a show like this'...

 

I don't think there are many shows that will give you a real cross section of the railway modelling community with which to 'gauge the hobby'. Some of the better quality local shows might be worth trying, Trainswest in Melksham springs to mind. Gauging your audience is another matter and if that audience goes to the popular general shows then that's great for you. I just wouldn't want to try and extrapolate whatever findings you get there across the whole hobby though.

 

Justin

[jjb1970]

With regards the hobby, I suspect a far higher proportion never bother with shows, message boards or clubs and just enjoy their own hobby in private than will ever be encountered at exhibitions or on-line. But that is supposition supported by meeting an awful lot of "closet" modellers over the years quite by accident who love the hobby but don't bother with many of its add ons.

[queensquare]

If somebody buys a kit and pays somebody to build it then;

 

the buyer gets a unique model they wouldn't otherwise have

the kit supplier gets a sale, helping sustain their business

a skilled modeller makes a bit out of their skills

 

To me that is a win win win.

Personally I'm glad there are those out there willing to pay to have their kits built, I'd struggle to make a living otherwise!

 

Jerry

[Dunsignalling]

 

Today's reader is better supplied with etched bits and the quality of the end result is astonishing in many cases. However, Rice would turn out several layouts in the time taken for a rake of perfect wagons. I still find his wagon books well worth a read.

I remember hearing some wise words about high-end modelling some years back (it might have been from Mr Rice himself) along the lines that "Travelling the last 10% of the road to perfection will absorb 90% of the time, effort and skill."

 

I live in hope that also means we can get 90% of the way with 10% of the time, effort and skill required to make a perfect model.   

 

John

[BG John]

I live in hope that also means we can get 90% of the way with 10% of the time, effort and skill required to make a perfect model.   

 

John

That's what I'm aiming for. Perfection can wait until I've achieved all my long outstanding ambitions on a neat, presentable and fairly modest scale. By that time I'll have plenty of practice and experience to make it worthwhile spending all the extra time adding the last 10%, and be in no rush to finish anything.

[John_Hughes]

'A good little consumer' Ha!

 

In fact I scratch or kit-build most of what I have for myself; commissions are another matter. But what I do always buy are wheels, motors, gears, DCC chips and the like.

 

If those who want to make 'everything' want to make those, then darned good luck to them and let's see their work on here please! But I buy them because I can't make them better. So don't get snarky about it, folks!

[Captain Kernow]

However, Rice would turn out several layouts in the time taken for a rake of perfect wagons.

That's no doubt one reason why his work is so popular, and rightly so, I think.

 

I went through a phase where I had to buy 'the best kit' for this or that loco, had to take ages getting just a few tiny details right and generally agonising about the most tiny minutiae of whatever project I was working on at the time.

 

It goes without saying, of course, that I was a lot younger then, and felt like I had decades of modelling ahead of me (which was technically true).

 

These days (when I'm actually modelling at all), I reserve the hair shirt for just a few 'hobby horses' (because I still haven't quite shaken the habits of my youth!) and generally don't worry so much about 'getting it all right'. 

 

With less modelling time available to me than 30 years ago, I think it's only natural that I (and others in the same boat), are going to take advantage of some of the superb RTR offerings around, and use the time saved to do other things on the layout.

 

Taking up BR John's point about conversion of new RTR offerings, this isn't an issue, however, if one keeps ones hand in with OO, even if there's also EM or P4 stuff lurking in the next room!