Jump to content


Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

Posted Image What was your favourite model of 2017? Cast your vote


Photo

Simple P4 turnout construction (works for EM and 00 gauges as well)





  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#51 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 23 September 2016 - 08:59

I managed to get some time to make a start on this, I will be on the C&L stand at Scaleforum and thought I would take it with me, I don't know how well it will work without a pre-made common crossing, so mk1 is a trial and error with the wing rails without too much modification. The rest should be plain sailing as these bases were designed to work with these chairs

 

124.jpg

 

The vee is soldered up in the normal way and I have soldered a piece of 0.6 mm copperclad to it to hold the nose of the vee at the correct height, before fitting the copperclad was cut back to the tip and filed flush with the rail sides

 

125.jpg

 

Chairs fitted to the Vee and to the straight stock rail (which has the check rail fitted

 

I next fitted the Vee, using superglue to stick the tip of the vee to the base and solvent for the chairs. The fitting of the stock rail as per normal

 

126.jpg

 

This is where you need to spend a bit of time, make the wing rail the best fit you can. In the Exactoscale kits the wing rail is one timber length longer than the rail break shown on the Templot plans, so I copied it.

 

Two normal chairs fitted one end and a modified centre check rail chair (see the cut off bit) the other (in the B chair position of the common crossing).

 

Now using solvent on the 2 normal chairs (I also fit the X chair half) fit the wing rail (do not glue the Check chair yet) using gauges and put aside overnight to set thoroughly

 

127.jpg

 

Using a wing rail gauge glue the remaining chair

 

Thread the chairs to the stock and check rails, then glue in place opposite the common crossing, when set only glue the next 6 chairs, I we need to fit some chair parts from the additional switch rail fret

 

128.jpg

 

With the gap at the knuckle of the wing rail fit the centre part of either the CCR or CCL check rail chair, this will maintain the gap at the bend

 

As with the first wing rail, make it and only stick the first two chairs then let set

 

129.jpg

 

I have made the first switch/closer rail, fitted the chairs, now fit in place

 

At the same time I have fitted the outside and centre parts of the additional switch chairs positions PL3 & PL4 on the straight stock rail, This is now ready for the curved switch/closer rail once set. I also fit the slide chairs to this rail

 

Then on the straight switch rail I fit the inside and centre parts for PL3 & PL4 positions (this is why the curved stock rail needs not to be stuck in place. Now leave over night to set hard before doing anything else

 

 

 


  • Informative/Useful x 1

Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

#52 Mersey507003

Mersey507003

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 700 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 00:33

Hi Everyone

Hope you are all well.

I have been having a go at track building and have become reasonably skilled in building straight and curved track, however, I recently tried building a left handed express point by using an old peco point, removing the main running rails aswell as anything else I could use from it.

I needed to have a crack at it in order to try point building as a conversion from a peco point at first before trying to scratchbuild a point.

Big problem was once I had finished it, it looked more like a wonky Y point instead of a left hand express point with issues trying to get it to be self isolating, although I think I have somehow managed to get 1 side to self isolate when the switch rails are set against it

Anyway to my questions now that the boring part is out the way.

1) Is it possible to construct a left hand, right hand or Y point with a longer radius than the current largest offerings from peco as some of my locos have either longer wheelbases from being self made by myself or they have flanged undercab wheels.

Also because of this my locos cannot manage the current radii offered by peco and are constantly derailing no matter which direction the locos run over them even running at a crawl they can derail.

2) This is perhaps my most important question. Is the tie bar for the switch rails meant to be fixed to the switch rails with the copper side face down but gapped to prevent shorting out. This is because when I did the point conversion, I fixed the tie bar with the copper side face up.

Any help and advice for turnout construction would be welcome.

I know I can read the steps on the 1st 2 or 3 pages regarding turnout construction to radii commonly used.

I am trying to find a way to increase my options available so my larger locos stop derailing.

Help please.
  • Friendly/Supportive x 1

#53 Finsbury

Finsbury

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 01:45

Hi Mersey, I am am only starting in track construction, so I apologise in advance If I am wrong or preaching to the converted.
Please correct me if I am wrong!

1) I am not sure what a flanged undercab wheel is, but I am pretty sure any scratchbuilt turnout will perform better than a converted peco. Make sure all track is level, level and more level. Baseboard joints need to be even more level than the level stuff.
1b) Re derailing. Is the track radius suitable for the rolling stock? Is the track suitable at all? (see1) Is there easement on the curves? Is the stock suitable for the curve? RTR/ kitbuilt?
2) Personally I wouldn't have used copperclad* (on a tie bar) at all, but I don't see an issue, even if you need to further isolate/renovate. I'm obviously talking out of my hat, the clever men will be along shortly!

But seriously, all the best, I am quite a few years behind and learning.

Bern

* edit for the tie bar bit, as I am looking forward to ply and sleeper, AND copperclad construction!
edit x2 I can see you are p4.

Edited by Finsbury, 20 December 2017 - 02:08 .


#54 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:15

Mersey

 

Welcome to the world of track building, which can be very rewarding but also frustrating

 

A question first, are you using code 75 or 100 ?

 

I can see the advantages of trying to re-use parts from an old turnout, this course of action can cause more problems than they solve

 

Except when you open up a turnout into a Y when you are increasing the radii if curving a normal turnout you will be reducing the radii

 

Now if you are trying to use the existing sleepers with chairs still on on a larger radius turnout, this may cause a dog leg or as you put it looking like a Y point

 

I would firstly get some decent plans, Templot is a great start and a plain point (turnout) is so easy to make. Forget Peco's geometry, decide which materials you are going to use (copperclad or chaired construction), buy the appropriate materials and gauges

 

The simple answer to question 1 is yes, may be difficult re-using the parts from a Peco turnout though

 

Its strange that all your locos are derailing on large radius Peco turnouts, might be worth buying a back to back gauge to check the wheels are in gauge, on the other hand the trailing wheels under the cab may either coarse scale and or have the incorrect back to back measurement (gauge)

 

As for your hand built locos, the issue may be that you have built the locos with insufficient sideways movement, the driven Axle should have very little sideways movement, the other drivers should have some side play (to allow them to go round curves), another issue may be that the pony/ bogie wheels may be too light

 

To question 2 if the copperclad tiebar is double sided then gap both sides, I would also build the turnouts where the switch blades are totally isolated from the Vee (common crossing)


Edited by hayfield, 20 December 2017 - 09:22 .


#55 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:25

Finsbury

 

Copperclad tiebars are fine, easy to make and install, the issue really is on looks, if so there are plenty of ways of disguising them


  • Informative/Useful x 1
  • Agree x 1

#56 Gordon A

Gordon A

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,787 posts
  • LocationBristol

Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:08

Finsbury

 

Copperclad tiebars are fine, easy to make and install, the issue really is on looks, if so there are plenty of ways of disguising them

 

Turn them on edge. C & L sell strips of 0.6mm copper clad that is ideal for stretcher bars.

 

Gordon A


  • Informative/Useful x 1

#57 Mersey507003

Mersey507003

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 700 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:21

The undercab wheels I mentioned are to do with the rear wheeks under the cab on a steam loco ( my apologies for the confusion).

Track is a mix in code 100 & 75 with peco adapter pieces used to connect them together

#58 Finsbury

Finsbury

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 17:07

Ah, gotcha! Are the adapters just before a curve or turn?

Bern

#59 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 18:18

Turn them on edge. C & L sell strips of 0.6mm copper clad that is ideal for stretcher bars.

 

Gordon A

 

There are other ways of hiding them, or use the third timber as the tiebar


The undercab wheels I mentioned are to do with the rear wheeks under the cab on a steam loco ( my apologies for the confusion).

Track is a mix in code 100 & 75 with peco adapter pieces used to connect them together

 

 

Do you have some older stock with coarser scale wheels ?



#60 Mersey507003

Mersey507003

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 700 posts

Posted 20 December 2017 - 23:35

The adapter pieces are generally in use in the stabling area because I was short of code 100 flexi and had bought some lengths of code 75 so the running is primarily done on code 100.

All stock fitted with up to date wheels.

#61 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 21 December 2017 - 09:56

The adapter pieces are generally in use in the stabling area because I was short of code 100 flexi and had bought some lengths of code 75 so the running is primarily done on code 100.

All stock fitted with up to date wheels.

 

Strange that your RTR stock derails, the hand built stock may just be down to lack of side play on the drivers, weight of the pony trucks/bogies and or the back to backs of the wheels in them 

 

I would closely look of what derails and where


Edited by hayfield, 21 December 2017 - 09:58 .


#62 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:28

I have had a few likes and other ticks about constructing the common crossings without soldering up sub assemblies. The method translates equally well whatever gauge you are using, and I think is perhaps more relevant to 00 gauge modellers many of whom are daunted by the making of these assemblies.

 

Whenever demonstrating track building at shows, the biggest fear from modellers is building the common crossing (frog). Many seem un able to solder rails together and keeping the rails upright and in gauge, a simpler solution is required which hopefully I have shown 

 

When I first started building with plastic chairs I was in the belt and braces brigade. How could plastic on plastic hold in gauge, perhaps the thought of being able to fettle the flangeways were at the back of my mind. But with modern wheels being so much better quality now and using the correct gauges, if there is no gauge problems in plain tracks, they why should the be any issues in holding the gauge in crossings, providing that is the chairs used are up to the job. This is where the Exactoscale system comes into its own, I have found in most situations they work as well in whichever gauge chosen, a few chairs are gauge specific, in certain situations it may be switching to the next size up or down as the length of the unit and sleeper placings will differ between gauges. Or as in the check rail chairs a simple modification to the chairs and how they are used

 

All I can say is that anyone who can build one of the more detailed plastic kits around can build their own turnouts, probably with the same tools they have collected with the addition of a few gauges and being aware of what they need to buy.

 

Owing to a house move 2 years ago and an extension plus a remodelling of the ground floor, this year modelling has been on the back burner, perhaps a sister thread on simplified 00 gauge turnout building is required using these parts. 



#63 Mersey507003

Mersey507003

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 700 posts

Posted 25 December 2017 - 00:54

1 question I forgot to ask in my post #52 was If I  scratchbuilt a longer point with a gentle curve using code 100 rail for the main running rails, what rail can I use for the switch rails ?.

 

I ask this because some of the code 100 rail I own is not flexible enough to use as switch rails.

 

I do still own some pieces of flexible track so I am thinking the following.

 

Would the flexible track code 100 rail be suitable for use as switch rails ?.



#64 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 25 December 2017 - 08:58

You would still use code 100, cut the switch rails in half, or have the isolation gap much further down and use plastic isolating fishplates, they make super hinges  



#65 Mersey507003

Mersey507003

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 700 posts

Posted 25 December 2017 - 10:17

Excellent thankyou


  • Thanks x 1

#66 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 27 December 2017 - 11:42

Excellent thankyou

 

 

Any other queries feel free to PM me is you wish



#67 tender

tender

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,526 posts
  • LocationNorth Wales

Posted 06 January 2018 - 10:10

I seem to recall Martin Wynne describing how to file up a crossing Vee other than just filing the angle on two rails and soldering together, as this leaves the nose with the two outer 'concave' rail sections meeting giving a weak point.

 

I'm sure there was a link on the subject to the Templot Forum somewhere but i cant find it. Does anyone have the link?



#68 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 06 January 2018 - 10:31

You are quite correct that there is  method initially of filing the tips of the rail on one side to the web, then bending the rails straight and then filing the other sides to the required angles. then you need to file a small rebate into the first rail to accept the second rail. Martin does have a diagram which is very clear in explaining this method

 

Given the stresses and strains of a model railway being unlike the real thing, if there is a weakness it is not weak enough to affect running or cause problems, on the cosmetic front owing to the closeness of the wing rails to the tip of the vee, it is not noticeable from normal viewing angles, especially in P4 gauge, soldering the rails together further disguises the joint. Finally we are talking about simple construction methods.

 

There is nothing wrong in nothing the vee this way, and if you like to make things prototypicaly that's fine. On the other hand this method may seem over complicated for the less experienced builder 


  • Thanks x 1

#69 tender

tender

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,526 posts
  • LocationNorth Wales

Posted 06 January 2018 - 11:41

Looking at your pictures of the soldered Vee, do both parts of the filed rail meet at the nose or are they staggered?



#70 hayfield

hayfield

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,805 posts

Posted 06 January 2018 - 12:10

I splice (stagger) one rail onto (not into as some do) the other rail, nothing wrong about the method Martin has shown and if you have plenty of time do it. Quite often making something that cannot be seen is very satisfying

 

As I have an EM Gauge Society Vee filing jig it is simplicity to make 1-5/6/7&8 angles, if you find it easier to join both at the tip, do it as the solder hides less than perfect joints, this is a case where over filing is better than under filing. The object is getting a free flowing angle, not a dog leg easily. 

 

In my vies its much better getting hung up on items that can be seen, rather than something that cannot, for example a modeller spends hours on getting the vee correctly spliced together, then just chops up standard chairs rather than fitting the correct ones which can be seen


  • Thanks x 1

#71 martin_wynne

martin_wynne

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,853 posts
  • LocationWest of the Severn, UK

Posted 06 January 2018 - 13:28

It is much easier to file a vee after assembling it. Even easier if you use a disc sander. Here is some stuff I have posted before, showing how a vee can be constructed to any angle matching the template, without needing filing jigs, and finishing with solid metal at the nose.

 

I have greatly exaggerated the crossing angle for clarity. The rails are shown in cross-section along the rail -- yellow shows the rail head and foot, orange shows the web of the rail:

 

2_060749_540000000.png

 

Make sure you have both rails the right way up. Bullhead rail has the thicker part at the top.

 

A is a prepared piece of rail with the end bent to the crossing angle, or slightly less. Allow a little extra on the overall length. Then file it as shown to become the splice rail.
Make another one of the opposite hand as B, to become the point rail (nose). No need to file the end yet, but file a notch in it to receive A as shown. The filing does not need to be very accurate.
C is any scrap bit of rail or etched kit waste, soldered on top of the rail for stability while handling. Unsolder or cut off after installing the vee in the turnout, and then the surplus vee rail ends are trimmed back as required.

Hold the rails down on the edge of a small block of wood using a penny washer on top and a screw. Stick a bit of printed template on the block as a guide. If you don't have a penny washer to hand you can drill a hole in an old coin. Assemble as shown using high-temperature solder because the rail gets hot while sanding. Using high-temp solder also reduces the risk of it coming apart later if you are using soldered track construction.

 

The washer may get sanded along with the rail, but no matter. Turn the vee round or over to make the second cut.

The result is as shown after making two cuts on the sander. If it gets hot stop and dip it in a jar of cold water. If necessary the bulk of the metal can be quickly removed with a coarse file or metal shears before finishing on the sander.

The end result is an accurately aligned vee comprised of solid rail at the nose. All that then remains is to fettle the running edges at the tip and blunt back the nose. It's a good idea to take a few thou off the top of the nose so that it dips down slightly below the wing rails. This allows for the coning angle on the wheels as they run off the wing rail onto the nose, producing smoother running. Don't overdo it.

 

N.B. Wear a mask while sanding and wash hands afterwards. The sandings will contain lead from the solder.

 

Far East-quality disc sanders are available at lowish cost and very useful for other workshop jobs:

 

sander1.jpg

 

Hope this helps. smile.gif

regards,

Martin.


Edited by martin_wynne, 06 January 2018 - 13:49 .
typo

  • Thanks x 1
  • Informative/Useful x 1
  • Like x 1

#72 dhjgreen

dhjgreen

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 855 posts
  • LocationGtr Manchester

Posted 06 January 2018 - 16:43

What a brilliant method, wish I had seen it before. I use an electric file for my pointwork, clamped in a vice.

Attached Thumbnails

  • images.jpeg

  • Like x 1







Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.