Jump to content




Photo
- - - - -

Italy train crash: 'Ten killed' near Bari




  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 phil-b259

phil-b259

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,086 posts
  • LocationBurgess Hill, UK

Posted 12 July 2016 - 11:47

Looks nasty - and eerily similar to the recent German one.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-36774059





#2 Dutch_Master

Dutch_Master

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:05

The only resemblance so far is the fact they'd collided on a (slightly) curved single track with vegetation either side. Any further claims are speculation and therefore unwarranted and shouldn't be made, nor assumed!

 

Still, a sad event nonetheless!



#3 phil-b259

phil-b259

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,086 posts
  • LocationBurgess Hill, UK

Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:15

The only resemblance so far is the fact they'd collided on a (slightly) curved single track with vegetation either side.

 

And the fact that quite clearly both trains should not have been there at the same time!

 

Why - we will not know for some time but as with the German case, its pretty obvious something went seriously wrong for the event to occur.

 

As you say however speculation as to what that might be is unwarranted and the immediate reaction should be sadness that lives have been lost.


Edited by phil-b259, 12 July 2016 - 12:25 .


#4 Dutch_Master

Dutch_Master

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 12 July 2016 - 13:14

News reports now state 20 fatalities and counting. Images:

http://nos.nl/artike...uid-italie.html

(text in Dutch, Google is your friend translator ;) )



#5 Dutch_Master

Dutch_Master

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 13 July 2016 - 03:16

News report (in Dutch!)

 

Summary: fatalities risen to 27, found one of the black boxes and a small child was rescued last night, injured but still alive, and airlifted to hospital. Six woundede reported as 'critical' (meaning high risk of loss of life).

 

Fortunately there was no fire after the crash, even though both trains involved where DMU's. The accident was on the branch line, not the electric mainline between Bari and Barletta. One could imagine the black mourning borders on Italian newspapers today.... :cry:


  • Informative/Useful x 1

#6 Neil

Neil

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 13 July 2016 - 19:42

I'm afraid my Dutch is nowhere near as good as your English DM.

 

On checking the BBC website there's an update which tells of the focus on the signalling system (or lack of) and the operating practises.


  • Informative/Useful x 1

#7 Tim H

Tim H

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,459 posts

Posted 13 July 2016 - 21:27

News reports seem to imply single-line working is along the lines of the old "Telegraph and Train Order" system long abandoned in Britain in favour of single-line tokens.

 

Is their system of operation really that primitive, or is it closer to tokenless block? 



#8 Dutch_Master

Dutch_Master

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 00:39

Southern Italy is not exactly known for their adoption of high-tech :no:  (except when it comes to the mobsters :rolleyes: )  The region is very poor indeed (and the maffia makes sure only they get the money :angry: )


  • Informative/Useful x 2

#9 dullsteamer

dullsteamer

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 377 posts
  • LocationWaterfall, NSW, Australia

Posted 14 July 2016 - 03:27

News reports seem to imply single-line working is along the lines of the old "Telegraph and Train Order" system long abandoned in Britain in favour of single-line tokens. Is their system of operation really that primitive, or is it closer to tokenless block?


The system of "safeworking" used on that line is "blocco telefonico" - telephone block working.

Cheers,

Mark.
  • Informative/Useful x 3

#10 meil

meil

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 681 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 08:25

The system of "safeworking" used on that line is "blocco telefonico" - telephone block working.
Cheers,
Mark.


Incredible 19th century methods in the 21st century.

Remind me not to travel on single lines in Europe.

#11 Reorte

Reorte

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 08:49

Incredible 19th century methods in the 21st century.

Remind me not to travel on single lines in Europe.

Give me 19th century in plenty of things over 21st century. Although certainly not in this case (sounds like systems they were keen to find something better than when they were using them then!)



#12 St. Simon

St. Simon

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,411 posts
  • LocationReading

Posted 14 July 2016 - 09:10

Incredible 19th century methods in the 21st century.

Remind me not to travel on single lines in Europe.

 

Hi,

 

You could say that, but actually the system is safe, as long as it is operated with the correct procedure and to the rulebook, unfortunately in this case, this may not of happened. We see it as an old and 'broken' system, but that isn't necessarily the case.

 

Remember, lots of Network Rail lines are still controlled by 19th Century Technology, and some rely on the correct communication and working of human signallers not too dissimilar to a Telephone block system (we use Bell codes, they use Telephones).

 

Simon


  • Agree x 1
  • Like x 1

#13 meil

meil

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 681 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 09:59

Hi,

 

You could say that, but actually the system is safe, as long as it is operated with the correct procedure and to the rulebook, unfortunately in this case, this may not of happened. We see it as an old and 'broken' system, but that isn't necessarily the case.

 

Remember, lots of Network Rail lines are still controlled by 19th Century Technology, and some rely on the correct communication and working of human signallers not too dissimilar to a Telephone block system (we use Bell codes, they use Telephones).

 

Simon

Big difference - when you have a token, that locks the block to other trains. This is not about the form of communication.


Edited by meil, 14 July 2016 - 10:00 .


#14 Reorte

Reorte

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 10:57

Hi,

 

You could say that, but actually the system is safe, as long as it is operated with the correct procedure and to the rulebook, unfortunately in this case, this may not of happened. We see it as an old and 'broken' system, but that isn't necessarily the case.

 

Remember, lots of Network Rail lines are still controlled by 19th Century Technology, and some rely on the correct communication and working of human signallers not too dissimilar to a Telephone block system (we use Bell codes, they use Telephones).

What happens on our systems if you don't follow the correct procedure and rulebook, even the bits operated with the oldest technology? I appreciate that nothing is completely bombproof but the most likely outcome is hopefully trains not going anywhere rather than in to each other.



#15 eastwestdivide

eastwestdivide

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,294 posts
  • LocationEast of the west coast and west of the east coast

Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:10

Article from Il Sole 24 Ore (the Italian equivalent of the Financial Times) here:

http://www.ilsole24o...Fs&refresh_ce=1

in which the transport minister says the "telephone block" system in use there is a higher risk because it relies entirely on the human factor

...un sistema come quello del controllo telefonico che lascia interamente all’uomo la possibilità di intervento è oggi considerato maggiormente a rischio...

My fairly literal translation: "...a system like telephone control which leaves the possibility of intervention entirely to the person is now considered to be high risk..."

 

I don't know enough about the systems and procedures involved in Italy to be able to make any sensible comment on the specifics, other than to say if humans are recognised to be fallible, you might need a system to stop stupid mistakes.

 

That article also says that the telephone system has been in use on that stretch of line for 60 years, and the service frequency has been unchanged for about 10 years, during which there have been no incidents:

Nella tratta in esame «è in uso da oltre 60 anni. L’attuale frequenza dei convogli è inalterata da circa 10 anni durante i quali non si sono verificati» incidenti.


Edited by eastwestdivide, 14 July 2016 - 11:10 .

  • Informative/Useful x 2

#16 Coryton

Coryton

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,427 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:12

What happens on our systems if you don't follow the correct procedure and rulebook, even the bits operated with the oldest technology? I appreciate that nothing is completely bombproof but the most likely outcome is hopefully trains not going anywhere rather than in to each other.

 

Well if you don't follow the "don't enter the single section without the correct token" procedure bad things can happen.


Edited by Coryton, 14 July 2016 - 11:13 .


#17 Reorte

Reorte

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,273 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 12:49

Well if you don't follow the "don't enter the single section without the correct token" procedure bad things can happen.

I thought (and please excuse, or better still, correct, my ignorance if I'm completely wrong) that you'd also need to pass a signal to enter the single line section, and that couldn't be cleared if the token was in the wrong place, and couldn't be passed (by much) if you did try because of AWS at the least.



#18 Titan

Titan

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,008 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 13:15

Was Cowden in 1994 the last single line head on crash in the UK? That one was due to a train passing a red signal.



#19 meil

meil

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 681 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 13:37

I thought (and please excuse, or better still, correct, my ignorance if I'm completely wrong) that you'd also need to pass a signal to enter the single line section, and that couldn't be cleared if the token was in the wrong place, and couldn't be passed (by much) if you did try because of AWS at the least.


The mechanical token system does not allow the section signal to be clear unless a token is obtained.

For a head on to happen not only has the train to pass a signal at danger but also not be in possession of a token.

#20 rue_d_etropal

rue_d_etropal

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,238 posts
  • LocationLancashire and sometimes France

Posted 14 July 2016 - 13:39

The reports yesterday just said that 'one train should not have been there' . It does seem odd that in the 21st century a simple and cheap system could not be introduced. With GPS and mobile phones it would not be that difficult to in effect create an electronic token. Simple interface on control board of train, requiring key card(ie token), which can only be programmed to allow one train on that track. If you can control a car using a playstation then this should be simple, safe and cheap.

One other thing in the report was that it stated the line was operated by a private company, I suppose that was to stop people blaming the government.



#21 Kenton

Kenton

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 8,835 posts
  • LocationWokingham

Posted 14 July 2016 - 14:06

 

With GPS and mobile phones it would not be that difficult to in effect create an electronic token. Simple interface on control board of train, requiring key card(ie token), which can only be programmed to allow one train on that track. If you can control a car using a playstation then this should be simple, safe and cheap.

 
Probably too easy to hack.

I would have thought the easiest system is one of direct 2-way communication between drivers. Self-preservation is one of the best safety locks. The drivers must know it is single track and where they are on the route. Two drivers about to head down a single tract in opposite directions would contact each other to find out who is going down the line first. Starting with the position that if not specifically told it is safe by the oncoming driver that there is one coming their way. Too simple, yes. Foolproof? No. But basic and better than what seems to be reported to have been in place here.

I do not understand the "too costly" to implement argument. The trains look comparatively modern and were by all reports quite fast. Just poor decision making on allocation of resources.

I hope that any investigation does go further than blaming one individual and look more into the reasons as to why it was able to happen.
  • Like x 2

#22 phil-b259

phil-b259

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,086 posts
  • LocationBurgess Hill, UK

Posted 14 July 2016 - 14:27

The reports yesterday just said that 'one train should not have been there' . It does seem odd that in the 21st century a simple and cheap system could not be introduced. With GPS and mobile phones it would not be that difficult to in effect create an electronic token. Simple interface on control board of train, requiring key card(ie token), which can only be programmed to allow one train on that track. If you can control a car using a playstation then this should be simple, safe and cheap.


Which is sort of what RETB was - a virtual token transmitted by radio between trains. While the kit was quite expensive to install, these days it would be very easy to come up with something similar at a fraction of the cost.

Also human voice communication is one of the worst ways of communicating safety critical information - it's one of the big advantages of bell codes - the phrases are predefined and thus cannot be corrupted by persons 'add lobbing'*


* you try and read from a script to an audience without putting your own spin on it - it's not as easy as you think.

#23 phil-b259

phil-b259

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,086 posts
  • LocationBurgess Hill, UK

Posted 14 July 2016 - 14:32

Was Cowden in 1994 the last single line head on crash in the UK? That one was due to a train passing a red signal.


I believe so - and the circumstances which allowed the train which SPADed have been addressed by TPWS.

As with the German incident earlier this year I am staggered that some railway systems in Western Europe are still using,or have procedures in place, that the UK has got rid precisely because of the potentially fatal consiquences if something goes wrong with them.
  • Agree x 1

#24 Dutch_Master

Dutch_Master

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,491 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 14:36

Every system in use is safe, if everyone follows the rules. :rolleyes:


  • Agree x 1

#25 burgundy

burgundy

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 813 posts

Posted 14 July 2016 - 14:45

That article also says that the telephone system has been in use on that stretch of line for 60 years, and the service frequency has been unchanged for about 10 years, during which there have been no incidents:

I presume that this means reported incidents. 

It would be interesting to know how many "oh sh1t" moments there have been (or the Italian equivalent), which have never been reported. I believe that there is a rule of thumb that for every accident, there are 10 near misses, and for every near miss, there are ten incidents which could have developed into something more serious. 

Best wishes 

Eric 


  • Like x 1