Ohle points and crossings

[37Oban]

I'm hoping some-one here can answer this query.

 

I'm currently building an N gauge layout based on a 'what might have been' line linking the Cathcart Circle through Glasgow to Queen Street High Level with ohle so I can run cl303 emus.

 

I've seen the postings by Clive Mortimer, and very useful they've been, but, as I have a double junction and a passing loop, I want to know the arrangement of the register arms in these locations, both for single post and portals, over the point work, all lines being electrified.

[Titan]

It can vary with different track geometry. Your best bet is to post a track plan and then it should be possible to advise.

[37Oban]

Hi Titan,

 

should have thought of that!  This is a rough plan of St Mungo's.  the mainline, loop and branch (at right) have ohle, the coal rees and bottling plant accessible by diesel only.  You will note that access to the loop at the station end is via 2 single slips, whilst at the opposite its via turnouts and a diamond crossing.  It was going to by a curved single slip but I took the easy option!  As an aside, the track is all hand-built using wooden sleepers and brass pins with only one, or 2, pcb sleepers in turnouts to make wiring easy!

 

I hope this has worked, my first attempt at this, only joined yesterday!

[Titan]

OK, I will see what I can do.

[Titan]

I have attached an extract of the Layout plan for Kings Cross station throat which shows the positioning of the wires on various types of crossing and pointwork.

 

On complex areas like this Fixed Termination equipment rather than Auto Tensioned equipment is preferred. This is to limit the differential movement of adjacent wires due to temperature, which can be quite significant with a multitude of different wire lengths and anchor positions.

 

For slips and shallow diamond crossings, two wires joined by 'Knuckles' (Labelled K) is the preferred method, rather than having a supporting structure at the middle of every crossing. 

 

For more obtuse diamond crossings the wires simply cross.

 

There are also a couple of examples of wiring for three way points too.

 

For ordinary points this plan is not particularly representative as due to the confined space and large number of wires and points non standard solutions are used, you would normally have a supporting structure close to the 'toes' of the points (T.O.P.) like the one supporting the three way points, and the wires would cross. I will see if I can find something more representative of the usual arrangement.

 

As for direction of the arms they always (or should always) pull the wire so that the arms are in tension. So once you have worked out where the wires will go then they will be pulling at the apex of the very shallow triangle formed by the wires either side.

 

This photo shows how the arms are pulling to the outside of the curve, and then alternate as the wire zig-zags down the line. This is Series Two equipment, although the principle for the Mk1 equipment will be the same:

 

[37Oban]

Hi,

 

thanks for the info!  Looks like I'm going to have some fun sorting the position of each pull on/pull off arm!  At the moment it looks like I'll be using portals over the right-hand end with single masts through the station and loop to the double junction.  I wont be wiring the overhead as I think it can be grossly over-scale in N, but I'd like to get the infrastructure right.  Then again, if I can find something fine enough.., though with a nominal scale diameter of 0.2mm or thereabouts, I don't hold out much hope!  Then there's the problem of maintenance etc.

 

Anyway, looking forwards to any more info you can find.

 

Thanks.

[Redford73]

I would be inclined to use photos as I am doing on my WCML layout at junctions. 

 

On the gantries the practice varies a lot - some have registration arms in an upside down position to those on the single masts usually positioned hanging/pointing in the same direction and others have just small vertical arms with the coils.

 

Mine is 00 and have used Dapol single masts and after waiting years for the double and gantry masts to be released I gave up and made my own with Plastruct and then bastardised some of the Dapol single mast arms. 

 

It's not as good and not nearly as sturdy as the scratchbuilt brass masts which many modellers create but I'm quite pleased with the results.  I too am not modelling the wires. 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

I'm hoping some-one here can answer this query.

 

I'm currently building an N gauge layout based on a 'what might have been' line linking the Cathcart Circle through Glasgow to Queen Street High Level with ohle so I can run cl303 emus.

 

I've seen the postings by Clive Mortimer, and very useful they've been, but, as I have a double junction and a passing loop, I want to know the arrangement of the register arms in these locations, both for single post and portals, over the point work, all lines being electrified.

Hi Oban

 

The Glasgow suburban system is great as it has Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 sections. Would your length of line have Mk1 (1960s) mast or later Mk3? I wouldn't worry about Mk2 as it looks almost the same as Mk1 and can you tell if the dropper wires are held in place by nuts and bolts (Mk1) or clips (Mk2). If between you and my old club mate Titan can draw the wire runs and mast positions I will have a bash at the mast. 

[37Oban]

I would be inclined to use photos as I am doing on my WCML layout at junctions. 

 

On the gantries the practice varies a lot - some have registration arms in an upside down position to those on the single masts usually positioned hanging/pointing in the same direction and others have just small vertical arms with the coils.

 

Mine is 00 and have used Dapol single masts and after waiting years for the double and gantry masts to be released I gave up and made my own with Plastruct and then bastardised some of the Dapol single mast arms. 

 

It's not as good and not nearly as sturdy as the scratchbuilt brass masts which many modellers create but I'm quite pleased with the results.  I too am not modelling the wires. 

 

 

I'm finding it's not as simple as some would have you believe!  I've got a copy of a book about the Cathcart Circle coming so I'm hoping there are some photos in there that will help.

 

I've used the Dapol N gauge masts on a previous layout.  They looked the part, but I found them a bit fragile when I modified them to have two register arms per post in the terminal station.  I used the posts that had the arms removed as the terminal posts, complete with a representation of the tension weights.

[37Oban]

Hi Oban

 

The Glasgow suburban system is great as it has Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 sections. Would your length of line have Mk1 (1960s) mast or later Mk3? I wouldn't worry about Mk2 as it looks almost the same as Mk1 and can you tell if the dropper wires are held in place by nuts and bolts (Mk1) or clips (Mk2). If between you and my old club mate Titan can draw the wire runs and mast positions I will have a bash at the mast. 

Hi Clive,

 

I've followed your threads on ole and find them enlightening and clear!

 

The period modelled is 1968-72, so mk1, assuming the line was electrified in the early 1960's.  A sketch of the wire runs would be great appreciated!  All modelling is a compromise so I'm aware that the mast positions around the curves would be closer than prototype; in the case of the exit onto the mainline the curves through 2 of the turnouts is 9", which is not a problem as trains would only enter/exit the loop at low speed.  I'll draw Titan another plan, with just the electrified lines, noting the radii of the various curves.

[Ian Smeeton]

Loving the idea of this.

 

How/what/where are you sourcng your 303s/311s

 

I am at the early stages of putting together a model of Paisley St James pre electrification, and have abolutely no need of a 303, except for the fact that they were built at Linwood, and delivered via St James.

 

So it would be nice to have one behind somethng steam, or even, as later a class 20.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[37Oban]

Loving the idea of this.

 

How/what/where are you sourcng your 303s/311s

 

I am at the early stages of putting together a model of Paisley St James pre electrification, and have abolutely no need of a 303, except for the fact that they were built at Linwood, and delivered via St James.

 

So it would be nice to have one behind somethng steam, or even, as later a class 20.

 

Regards

 

Ian

Hi Ian

 

I've had a fascination with the Glasgow suburban lines ever since Ian Futers published a feature on the Cathcart Circle in Railway

Modeller many moons ago.

 

The question of the 303 vexed me for some time.  I considered scratch-building, conversions, resin casting and 3d printing but in the end I contacted Allen Doherty at Worsley Works and commissioned an etched brass kit.  Each kit comprises sides, with separately fitted recessed doors, ends and underframe.  Etched brass bogies for the LNER-type 8ft and 8ft 6in are available from Ultima Models, whitemetal 8ft from BH Enterprise.  I'm sourcing the power, roofs and interiors.

 

When I have a few minutes I'll photograph the one currently waiting for a power bogie.  I also think I may start a new thread about the layout.  It's called St Mungo's, and is a 'what might have been' link between Mount Pleasant and Queen Street (High Level) via Dalmarnock, Duke Street and Springburn.  If it had been built it would have been a very useful diversionary route.

 

Regards,

 

Roja

[PaulCheffus]

Hi Ian

 

 

The question of the 303 vexed me for some time.  I considered scratch-building, conversions, resin casting and 3d printing but in the end I contacted Allen Doherty at Worsley Works and commissioned an etched brass kit.  Each kit comprises sides, with separately fitted recessed doors, ends and underframe.  Etched brass bogies for the LNER-type 8ft and 8ft 6in are available from Ultima Models, whitemetal 8ft from BH Enterprise.  I'm sourcing the power, roofs and interiors.

 

 

Regards,

 

Roja

Hi

 

Has Allen managed to do the curved fronts? I ask as they are similar to the trans pennine unit and when he did the sides for me he couldn't at that time do the curved fronts.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[37Oban]

Hi

 

Has Allen managed to do the curved fronts? I ask as they are similar to the trans pennine unit and when he did the sides for me he couldn't at that time do the curved fronts.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Hi Paul,

 

I chickened out with the fronts and asked for the rebuilt versions with the wrap around windows replaced by a flat window and metal panel.  He did ask which version I wanted, but I thought trying to get the correct curve in whatever glazing material I chose would be a task too far!  So maybe he's found a way of doing them.

 

Regards,

 

Roja

[37Oban]

I have attached an extract of the Layout plan for Kings Cross station throat which shows the positioning of the wires on various types of crossing and pointwork.

 

On complex areas like this Fixed Termination equipment rather than Auto Tensioned equipment is preferred. This is to limit the differential movement of adjacent wires due to temperature, which can be quite significant with a multitude of different wire lengths and anchor positions.

 

For slips and shallow diamond crossings, two wires joined by 'Knuckles' (Labelled K) is the preferred method, rather than having a supporting structure at the middle of every crossing. 

 

For more obtuse diamond crossings the wires simply cross.

 

There are also a couple of examples of wiring for three way points too.

 

For ordinary points this plan is not particularly representative as due to the confined space and large number of wires and points non standard solutions are used, you would normally have a supporting structure close to the 'toes' of the points (T.O.P.) like the one supporting the three way points, and the wires would cross. I will see if I can find something more representative of the usual arrangement.

 

As for direction of the arms they always (or should always) pull the wire so that the arms are in tension. So once you have worked out where the wires will go then they will be pulling at the apex of the very shallow triangle formed by the wires either side.

 

This photo shows how the arms are pulling to the outside of the curve, and then alternate as the wire zig-zags down the line. This is Series Two equipment, although the principle for the Mk1 equipment will be the same:

 

Hi,

 

I received a post from your friend Clive yesterday evening.  He suggested you might be able to do a diagram showing the position of the masts and wiring runs for me, so, if you are willing, I'm attaching two thumbnails of the layout, showing just the electrified lines and relevant details.  Thanks in advance,

 

Roja

[Marly51]

Hi Titan,

 

should have thought of that!  This is a rough plan of St Mungo's.  the mainline, loop and branch (at right) have ohle, the coal rees and bottling plant accessible by diesel only.  You will note that access to the loop at the station end is via 2 single slips, whilst at the opposite its via turnouts and a diamond crossing.  It was going to by a curved single slip but I took the easy option!  As an aside, the track is all hand-built using wooden sleepers and brass pins with only one, or 2, pcb sleepers in turnouts to make wiring easy!Scan_20160721c.jpg

 

I hope this has worked, my first attempt at this, only joined yesterday!

Looking forward to following your progress!