Dublo N2 tank

[Il Grifone]

I finally got around to sorting out my collection of these little gems (I won't say how many I have -(pleads 5th Amendment   ) and I thought I would inflict my thoughts on you all....

 

It is said that Dublo never actually claimed their model to be an N2, but since they gave her various N2 numbers (2690/9596, 69550 and 69567  and she looks very little like a GWR 56xx (6699), a LNWR 0-6-2T (4917) or an LBSCR E5* (2594), I think the identification is clear). There are numerous 'errors', which I'll go into in part 2....

 

*There is some resemblance to the larger boilered E5X, but a fair bit of of work is required to make a passable representation.

 

The Dublo bible illustrates something like 30 variants ....

In brief, she was first released in 1938 in electric and clockwork versions and in the livery of all four companies. WW II put a stop to production and she reappeared in 1947 with a few modifications. The main one was the new coupling which required a buffer beam cut out. The LNER version was renumbered 9596 like her prototype. The GWR livery was  updated to 'G W R' from the previous 'shirtbutton'. 1948 marked the LNER version in green and the LMS version's lost the serifs  in favour of the post war plain straw coloured lettering. The Southern tank now appeared in 'Sunshine' lettering. All these had gold labels on the bunker rear. 1949 saw the replacement of the previous 'horseshoe magnet in favour of the AlNiCo type and the bunker labels became silver.

 

The Korean war meant limited availability and the delay of the BR version (69567) until 1953. At first in gloss black, this became matt black later (roughly in line with the introduction of the revised coupling (late '54 early '55). Earlier versions have small numbers and later ones larger. There are also variations in the lion transfers.

 

The next change was the introduction of the 2 rail version around 1960 (later than the original 2 rail releases) as 69550 with the later 'ferret' emblem. About the same time (possibly a little later to clear stocks?) the 3 rail version followed into the new livery, but unlike the other models retained her identity as 69567 (lost sales opportunity?). These became L17 rather than the earlier EDL17 (EDL7 for the pre-nationalisation versions) and featured a revised front body fixing and plastic coupling, The final modification was the (ugly) large base for the safety valves to accommodate the large top bearing.

 

This was carried forward into the Wrenn era, which saw the replacement of the chassis with the R1 type fitted with a new pony truck and the awful tension lock couplings. Further colour variations appeared, including  LNER 9522, which, while the (sole?) prototype in green, was fitted with condensing apparatus and a crimson LMS version.

 

(Some of these will overlap and dates are approximate and it is easy to swop chassis.. Some casting variations have been ignored.)

 

I suspect I've bored everyone to tears by now, so I'll post part 2 later.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Il Grifone

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...It is said that Dublo never actually claimed their model to be an N2...

 It is as least as much like an N1, as any of the other types which the liveries applied over the years might suggest it was intended to represent. And in one particular respect it excelled at representing an N1, in its armoured train locomotive form. I am sure readers will be happy to learn that only very close range hits from an air rifle succeeded in temporarily checking progress or derailing the Dublo lump. At scale artillery range it was invulnerable, not even a chip to the paintwork.

[BG John]

What size are the wheels on the Dublo/Wrenn model? I used the chassis of a Wrenn one to motorise an Airfix Prairie kit 40 or more years ago, and replaced them with 5ft 8in drivers. I'm sure the originals were smaller, but the real N2s had 5ft 8in ones. I'm considering putting some kind of chassis under the old body.

[Il Grifone]

 It is as least as much like an N1, as any of the other types which the liveries applied over the years might suggest it was intended to represent. And in one particular respect it excelled at representing an N1, in its armoured train locomotive form. I am sure readers will be happy to learn that only very close range hits from an air rifle succeeded in temporarily checking progress or derailing the Dublo lump. At scale artillery range it was invulnerable, not even a chip to the paintwork.

 

They are tough beasts, which must be why there are so many still around.

 

As to being like an N1, it is one of the variations I have considered, but there are 3 main differences on the N1:-

 

The sidetanks are much shorter and only cover half of the centre splasher.

The boiler centre is lower.

The leading sandboxes are under the running plate. EDIT I've found a photo of one with sandboxes in the N2 position.

 

There are also differences in the cab roof  - it's still different from the Dublo one though.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

What size are the wheels on the Dublo/Wrenn model? I used the chassis of a Wrenn one to motorise an Airfix Prairie kit 40 or more years ago, and replaced them with 5ft 8in drivers. I'm sure the originals were smaller, but the real N2s had 5ft 8in ones. I'm considering putting some kind of chassis under the old body.

 

The drivers are around 19mm. The wheels of Dublo's N2, A4 and Duchess/City are all around  a scale foot undersize. I can think of two reasons - they were originally intended to H0 scale and/or clearance is needed for the deep flanges. trailing wheels are 12mm or 13mm depending on the age of the model. One of the changes I didn't mention above was that early Dublo models had disc (rolling stock) wheels, changing to solid backed (tender) wheels around 1954. These became nylon with 2 rail and acquired nice metal rims during the Wrenn period.

 

The body is around 10mm too short - this is further evidence for an intended H0 model the wheelbase of the model is 26mm +31mm, which comes out as 7' 3" + 9' 0" in H0 scale. IIRC the pony truck i set a little too far back

 

Dublo versions had a single mazak* block with attached pony truck. Wrenn changed this to the R1 0-6-0T chassis adding a slightly different pony casting and a bracket fitting into a slot in the back of the bunker. This means either modifing a Dublo chassis or acquiring a complete Wrenn version. Alternatively a Gaiety one (not advised - they are rather rubbish) might fit or a scratch built one is the best solution of all. Mainly Trains (usual disclaimer) can supply etched coupling rods.

 

All metric dimensions are approximate - Meccano Ltd. was an exclusively Imperial world.

 

*Mazak is a trade name - here used generically as 'hoover' etc. hence the lower case.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Il Grifone

[BG John]

The drivers are around 19mm. The wheels of Dublo's N2, A4 and Duchess/City are all around  a scale foot undersize. I can think of two reasons - they were originally intended to H0 scale and/or clearance is needed for the deep flanges. trailing wheels are 12mm or 13mm depending on the age of the model. One of the changes I didn't mention above was that early Dublo models had disc (rolling stock) wheels, changing to solid backed (tender) wheels around 1954. These became nylon with 2 rail and acquired nice metal rims during the Wrenn period.

 

The body is around 10mm too short - this is further evidence for an intended H0 model the wheelbase of the model is 26mm +31mm, which comes out as 7' 3" + 9' 0" in H0 scale. IIRC the pony truck i set a little too far back

Thanks. That's what I was expecting. I've got no plans to try to restore it, unless the prairie gets a new chassis, which I'm not planning. A modern Hornby 0-6-0 chassis fits reasonably well though, and that has 19mm wheels. I may cobble something together using one sometime.

[Il Grifone]

Thanks. That's what I was expecting. I've got no plans to try to restore it, unless the prairie gets a new chassis, which I'm not planning. A modern Hornby 0-6-0 chassis fits reasonably well though, and that has 19mm wheels. I may cobble something together using one sometime.

 

It should do, but Tri-ang and Hornby chassis are a little longer (wheelbase 31mm + 33mm*) and may cramp the pony truck. They also set the buffers and running plate too high. I'm sure it can be made to fit however.

 

* Strangely they made it 2mm too short for the Jinty it was designed to fit (8' 0" + 8' 6"). 

[BG John]

It should do, but Tri-ang and Hornby chassis are a little longer (wheelbase 31mm + 33mm*) and may cramp the pony truck. They also set the buffers and running plate too high. I'm sure it can be made to fit however.

 

* Strangely they made it 2mm too short for the Jinty it was designed to fit (8' 0" + 8' 6"). 

It looks as though removing the clips that hold the front of the body should move the chassis forward far enough to line up with the splashers, and the rear wheels seem just a little bit further back than photos of the prototype. I'll see what spare bits and pieces I've got around.

[russ p]

Was the original intention to make the dublo range in HO scale?

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David,

I have recently looked at my 0-6-2's (not N2) regarding the ID and I have two L17 bodies but both are different. One is as you say for the last style of coupling mount, large boss on top of the footplate, but the other is the old style body for a screw down from above.

 

Don't forget that also some prewar bodies had turned nickel buffers as opposed to cast or brass ones. The nickel were a far nicer profile.

 

Also the rear cab windows were larger in the early days.

 

And, dont forget the 4 different regional clockwork ones.

 

Garry

Edited July 27, 2016 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

Was the original intention to make the dublo range in HO scale?

 

I don't know for sure - it's lost in the mists of time - but the underscale N2 chassis and wheels certainly seem to indicate this. It would also explain why the LNER coaches are so short - the prototype is only 52' 6" long but the Dublo version is even shorter. I suspect problems trying to get the vertical motor to fit in the loco body. Of course this is only circumstantial evidence.

[Il Grifone]

Hi David,

I have recently looked at my 0-6-2's (not N2) regarding the ID and I have two L17 bodies but both are different. One is as you say for the last style of coupling mount, large boss on top of the footplate, but the other is the old style body for a screw down from above.

 

Don't forget that also some prewar bodies had turned nickel buffers as opposed to cast or brass ones. The nickel were a far nicer profile.

 

Also the rear cab windows were larger in the early days.

 

And, dont forget the 4 different regional clockwork ones.

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

 

I didn't elaborate too much on the pre-war versions as, not being in possession of any beyond a broken chassis block, I don't have much experience, AFAIK they differ from later post war versions by having complete buffer beams, the larger cab windows* and not having 'Hornby' on the smokebox. The clockwork versions are identical apart from the keyhole in the tank and obviously the chassis. I assume the larger cab windows were to allow room for the control rods. I had forgotten about the buffers.

 

* These were reduced about the type of the changes in magnet and label colour. Generally horseshoe versions have a gold label and large windows. Of course, the original chassis could have been replaced....

 

 

 

IIRC the first 2 rail L17 versions had the same metal couplings as the 3 rail and the modification was introduced to allow for the plastic couplings. Metal couplings live to chassis can result in short circuit problems coupling locomotives back-to-back.

 

The history is long and complicated and there are many overlaps, production anomalies (GWR versions numbered '6231' LMS style for example.) There are numerous examples of Friday afternoon production with misplaced and/or skew transfers - possibly more common than correct ones?

 

The first examples of the BR goods brake van had the white roof of the LNER van and the last LNER coaches had BR grey roofs - I can remember seeing some still on sale in Lawsons in Plymouth, while on summer holiday - it must have been in 1954 (possibly 1955 but this seems rather late). They also had the Trix German Diesel unit - I would like one of these....

 

EDIT:

The dates of changes are on the drawing in the 'bible'. These are when the drawing was revised, but it is not unknown for there to be some divergence between shop floor and drawing office (certainly in the places I worked...).

This reminds me of the mythical French version - she definitely has little resemblance with anything owned by the S.N.C.F., but would look smart in dark green....

 

David

Edited July 28, 2016 by Il Grifone

[bertiedog]

On Hornby considering HO, indeed they did, but only well before production. Hornby were only a Toy maker, there was no intention or claim to be scale, and they chose  00 as it was the leading size for table top railways. H0 was in it's infancy, and considered as a scale users size.

Undersize wheels were the nom in toys, as were short coaches which were cheaper to make and package in sets.

Once underway, yes more scale like items were made, but the boxed set market was the target, with extra  sales afterwards. The sole purpose in introducing Dublo was to cater for smaller houses and homes in the UK, nothing else.

After the war things slowly change to cater for those who wanted a more real look to the toys, driven by Frank Hornby's desire to always improve.

Tinplate never suited scale models and as he wanted to use cast metal and later plastic as much as possible, this lead to better details, but a legacy backwards to the toy origins.

S-tephen

[NCB]

George Mellor, who was closely associated with the introduction of Hornby Dublo, included an article in his catalogue which explained the thoughts behind the adoption of OO. Essentially, for toy train usage, where tracks might be layed on carpets and the like, they reckoned you needed wheels with broad treads and deep flanges. Given the restricted clearances of British prototypes (of things like splashers and valve gear), it made sense to enlargen the body. Hence OO bodies on HO track. The length thing was common to most producers; model coaches were normally under length. One of the problems of OO today is that scale length BR Mk 1 coaches (and later) take up quite a lot of room!

[NCB]

The N2 may not look like a GWR 56XX, but it bears a close resemblance to the parallel boiler Rhymney Railway 0-6-2s that the GWR inherited in 1922. Some of these lasted into BR days. See http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2482

for an R Class in BR days, with GWR fittings; pre GWR it looked more like the N2, i.e. without the GWR style safety-valve casing.

Edited August 5, 2016 by NCB

[BG John]

The N2 may not look like a GWR 56XX, but it bears a close resemblance to the parallel boiler Rhymney Railway 0-6-2s that the GWR inherited in 1922. Some of these lasted into BR days. See http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2482

for an R Class in BR days, with GWR fittings; pre GWR it looked more like the N2, i.e. without the GWR style safety-valve casing.

4' 6" wheels too, so closer to the actual wheel size of the model. Maybe that's the solution to what to do with my Wrenn N2 body, and a spare Hornby 0-6-0 chassis.

[Il Grifone]

The N2 may not look like a GWR 56XX, but it bears a close resemblance to the parallel boiler Rhymney Railway 0-6-2s that the GWR inherited in 1922. Some of these lasted into BR days. See http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2482

for an R Class in BR days, with GWR fittings; pre GWR it looked more like the N2, i.e. without the GWR style safety-valve casing.

 

This had occurred to me and I was going to suggest it in part 2 (when I get around to it....).

 

The most obvious difference is that the class R have a taller chimney and dome and the boiler is lower than the N2 - these had high pitched boilers (which gave rise to rough riding and track damage I understand). The sandboxes and large splashers have to go too. Then the coupled wheelbase needs some attention.

 

Like the E5X, it's similar, but not quite the same (This could be said about the Dublo model and the real N2 of course!)

[NCB]

One problem with the Rhymney 0-6-2s is that they mostly had Belpaire fireboxes. However 1 or 2 classes started life with round-topped fireboxes, although acquired Belpaire ones before the GWR inherited them. Some of the other South Wales railways also had 0-6-2s.

[AdamsRadial]

It's a lot easier to add a Belpaire firebox to a model than to remove it from one

[phil_sutters]

The N2 may not look like a GWR 56XX, but it bears a close resemblance to the parallel boiler Rhymney Railway 0-6-2s that the GWR inherited in 1922. Some of these lasted into BR days. See http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=2482

for an R Class in BR days, with GWR fittings; pre GWR it looked more like the N2, i.e. without the GWR style safety-valve casing.

My Dad acquired a second-hand three-rail one back in the early sixties, but being a GWR fan it was converted to a Rhymney . I can't remember whether he did it - his model making skills were very limited - or whether I did. If I did it it was one of the first conversions I made. To be fair to Dad, he did lay our first two-rail layout's track using preformed track bases and track spikes. I don't seem to have any photos of our RR conversion, but there is a shot of a Hornby Dublo SECR R1 converted to a GWR 633 class. I think it was 638, but I am sure our effort is not the 638 at Pendon! I used quite a number of R1 chassis under S&D Jinties, Pannier tanks and probably 3Fs.

In the 50+years old photo, the 633 is on the right. The trackwork - spiked plain track and ready made points - is Dad's. The K's 45XX never ran well - we bought it already built, second-hand.

It was a GW layout with S&D running powers. Coleford is the village of which Highbury is part. Please see the more recent Highbury Colliery layout's scenario for a similar back-story to ours.

There I go again wandering off topic - but these retrospective subjects do get the memories going.

Edited August 29, 2016 by phil_sutters

[Il Grifone]

I suppose we can allow the Dublo R1 in this thread on the grounds that Wrenn used the chassis under their version of the N2 (later ones anyway).

 

Probably no one is interested, but I'll post a picture of my 633 conversion later. She's Tri-ang based () but one of the future projects is an R1 based version (though it might end up as a '517' or 'Metro').

[phil_sutters]

I suppose we can allow the Dublo R1 in this thread on the grounds that Wrenn used the chassis under their version of the N2 (later ones anyway).

 

Probably no one is interested, but I'll post a picture of my 633 conversion later. She's Tri-ang based ( ) but one of the future projects is an R1 based version (though it might end up as a '517' or 'Metro').

Thanks for that concession! I have now found a photo of the N1/RR conversion, although from the quality of the photo it would be impossible for anyone but me to identify it!

[Wolseley]

There appears to be something about the N2 - the locomotive equivalent of being cute and cuddly perhaps?  I've been gathering together a small collection of Dublo 3 rail over the last few months, starting with a Bristol Castle, followed by a 2-6-4 tank, Duchess of Montrose, a Sir Nigel Gresley in LNER Blue and, lastly, a rather sad looking Duchess of Atholl that was described as a "non-runner" but was running quite nicely after a bit of fiddling about.  And N2 tanks?  Somehow I managed to end up with four of them....

Edited September 22, 2016 by Wolseley

[Il Grifone]

Welcome to RMweb!  

 

Four is only a start....  

 

There are six main variations of livery (4 pre-nationalisation and both varieties of BR lion emblem). These all have sub-variations. (Anything SR, GWR or LNER black is rare). Chassis variations are pre-war clockwork and electric and post-war horseshoe and AlNiCo magnets, gloss and matt variations of the first BR livery exist as well. and then there is the 2 rail version 69550. (All BR 3 rail variants are numbered 69567.)

 

I promised to review the model as an N2. For a start, it's undersized (the wheelbase and wheel diameter are to H0 scale) and the cab is the wrong shape. The original number 2690 was renumbered as 9596 by the LNER in their 1946 renumbering. This was faithfully followed by Hornby, but they anticipated matters with the green version. The intention was to repaint all locomotives in green but nationalisation put paid to that. AFAIK the only N2 in green was 9522 (as modelled by Wrenn), but this was fitted with condensing apparatus. A pedantic point is that 9596 had Ramsbottom safety valves at least into BR days, whereas the Dublo model has Ross pop valves.

 

EDIT.

A photo I have ('Steam Locomotives of British Railways - H.C. Casserley) shows 69596 in early BR days with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering. It is possible that she is in green, but, as always, it's hard to be 100% sure from a monochrome photograph.

 

There should be a coupling rod splasher. This is missing from the Dublo model. Due to the undersize wheels, they are not needed, but wear in the coupling rods can cause the rods to strike the running plate when running. Possibly they made the model from the weight diagram, which omits them (or at least the one I have does).

Edited September 22, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Wolseley]

Hello.

 

Yes, somehow I have a feeling that four is only a start, although I am not aiming at collecting all possible variants.

 

The one thing that always used to bother me with models like the Dublo N2, in decades gone by when I used to be concerned with prototypical accuracy, was the lack of daylight under the boiler (in the case of the N2, the area between the rear of the smokebox and the front of the sidetanks).  I can't say it bothers me now though.....