Steam Tramways - Rural - Great Britain & Ireland

[Fat Controller]

You'll be needing some drawings then

Voitures_deux_etages.jpg

7 Bidel CF Ceinture Bidel.jpg

7a chelles(Seine & Marne) .jpg

 

I don't think anyone currently produces a model of a Bidel. The interesting design feature is the swan neck chassis that enabled the floor of the lower deck to be lowered without compromising the strength of the vehicle.

 

Jouef did do a model of the death trap impériale based on the Ouest example which is in the Mulhouse railway museum along with an Est Bidel.

Jouef Etat 3.jpg

Though moulded from rather heavy plastic the Jouef model is dimensionally accurate and illustrates the features of the thing rather well.

 

The word Impériale seems to derive from stage coaches and diligences and is still used in reference to double deck buses and coaches. I did wonder if it was a slightly ironic reference for the poorer passengers riding on top of a stage coach in the open "riding like an emperor"

I think 'Imperiale' simply refers to these vehicles arriving during the Second Empire under Louis Bonaparte, the man of whom Marx wrote 'History repeats itself; the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce'. This was certainly the origin of the name 'Ligne Imperiale' given to the PLM main line, construction of which started during his reign. Similar to the way we have 'Jubilee'classes, named for the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria, and subsequently, the Silver Jubilee of George V.

[Pacific231G]

I think 'Imperiale' simply refers to these vehicles arriving during the Second Empire under Louis Bonaparte, the man of whom Marx wrote 'History repeats itself; the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce'. This was certainly the origin of the name 'Ligne Imperiale' given to the PLM main line, construction of which started during his reign. Similar to the way we have 'Jubilee'classes, named for the Golden Jubilee of Quen Victoria, and subsequently, the Silver Jubilee of George V.

 

Louis Napoleon established the Second Empire in 1852 having been President of the Second Republic from 1848 and it's true that buses with an upper deck or "impériale" also appeared in Paris in about 1852. However, references to impériale as an upper or outside seating position are much earlier. It appears in a description of the large diligences that started to appear in 1820."Dans le coupé ou le cabriolet, trois voyageurs peuvent prendre place. L’intérieur offre six places, la rotonde 3 places. Enfin, deux personnes peuvent s’installer sur l’impériale."

I also found a slightly later reference from Balzac, Le Message (1832)

"L'état de ma bourse m'obligeait à voyager sur l'impériale de la diligence." The state of my funds obliged me to travel on the impériale of the diligence.

So the word seems to have always referred to an upper position on a vehicle rather than the vehicle as a whole but I'd like to trace its earlier origins. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Martino]

Thank you for the info on the Kelvedon Tollesbury Light Railway, Edwardian. Excellent. I may use some of that feeling for a The South Buckinghamshire Light Railway, albeit in 15mm scale.

[Edwardian]

Yes, like everyone else, it would seem, I'd forgotten the S&M, despite the fact that I got a good, early, copy of Lee's book about it recently. Does anyone know of a layout based on it?

 

We haven't mentioned the Glyn Valley, or the Portstewart either, which seems remiss. The fact that two locos from the latter are preserved, one at Cultra, the other at Hull, of all places, is really curious, given that it closed in 1926 (at very much the same time as the W&SST? Was the LMS using the General Strike as the final excuse to get rid of two anachronisms?) [Edit: Not in the case of Portstewart, it seems, because that closed four months before the strike].

 

And, the Dublin & Blessington was rural for a large part of its length.

 

Kevin

 

Listed, for many years, in the Peco holiday guide, was an S&M model railway, in Swansea, which could be viewed, it said, by appointment.  I used to spend quite a bit of time in the Mumbles area (affaire d'amour) many years ago, but never saw it, as no one ever answered the 'phone number supplied!

[Edwardian]

Thank you for the info on the Kelvedon Tollesbury Light Railway, Edwardian. Excellent. I may use some of that feeling for a The South Buckinghamshire Light Railway, albeit in 15mm scale.

 

You're welcome.  If you want truly idiosyncratic tramcars, rather than the cast-off W&U, you could build the GER 6-wheel coach conversions.  Some were lowered by fitting small wheels, and reduced to 4-wheels.  Verandahs were added at each end, and side doors sealed.  Because the GE stock of the time was typically built with rounded tops to the door and quarter lights, despite their origins, the converted coaches bore a family resemblance to the purpose-built W&U stock.

 

It's a nice example of tramway-type stock run on a non-tramway Light Railway.  

[Nearholmer]

The only time I went to the Mumbles was to go camping, and we asked the chap in charge of the field to point us to a good,flat place to pitch the tent.

 

He indicated an area that was inclined at an angle of about thirty degrees (the rest was at forty-five degrees), and, when we complained, his response was: "Well, it is flat; in a sloping kind of way." (You have to imagine the doleful Welsh accent).

 

Now, I'm sure I've heard this told as joke, but it is true; I know, 'cos I was there.

 

No S&M at the time of the camping trip. Just good clean, outdoor fun.

 

K

 

PS: There was also the Shropshire & Montgomery, of course. Not a tramway, but some incredibly silly rolling stock, and it did terminate in a number of fields in the middle of nowhere (all of which I visited in an old Landrover about ten years ago. Don't bother going: there is nothing there that can't be seen in any field within easy walking distance of home!)

Edited August 10, 2016 by Nearholmer

[pete_mcfarlane]

There are some rather lovely Dutch steam tram models available here http://tramworks.nl/en/home.html

 

Not that useful for a British layout, but they're very nice. I'm assuming that the Dutch had different regulatory requirements for steam tramways, which is why you can see see a lot more of the moving parts. 

[£1.38]

I think the legal position on Tramways in this country was not straightforward.

 

Originally, they needed individual Acts of Parliament, just like railways. Anything could be stipulated in the Act, depending on what interested parties managed to get added. Then, tramways moved from individual Acts to local authority approval under the Tramways Act 1870 - but with the Board of Trade issuing guidelines on rules and regulations. Finally, the Light Railways Act of 1896 provided another way of legally starting what enthusiasts might still call a tramway. This got away from the threat of the Local Authority having the legal right to take over the tramway after 21 years. The Board of Trade set the overall framework of regulations, but there could be individual requirements to suit local circumstances. Therefore, there could be wide variations in regulations.

 

There was also a lack of enforcement in some cases, allowing operators to get away with things they were technically not allowed to do. The Wantage Tramway was supposedly notorious for this, but even in urban areas strange things happened. I have seen photos of conventional privately owned 0-4-0 steam tank locos with no protection for coupling rods etc. running on the Glasgow Tramways, for example.

Edited August 10, 2016 by £1.38

[Pacific231G]

There are some rather lovely Dutch steam tram models available here http://tramworks.nl/en/home.html

 

Not that useful for a British layout, but they're very nice. I'm assuming that the Dutch had different regulatory requirements for steam tramways, which is why you can see see a lot more of the moving parts. 

My general impression is that rules for street tramways in many countries started out being very strict with nothing showing under the skirts and gradually got more and more relaxed. You only have to compare the Wantage Tramway's original fully enclosed locos with Shannon; presumably the horses weren't quite as terrified as everyone feared. There was often also a difference between at one end of the spectrum street running in larger towns and cities and, at the other, lines that ran along the side of rural roads. In many countries the local authorities often also had a say in this.  Many French rural tramways, such as the Tramways de Correze, used very conventional locos with competely unenclosed motions whereas others, the Tramways de Sarthe for example,  had fully enclosed locos with driving positions at both ends until they finally closed in 1947.

 

On many tramways even when enclosed locos remained in service there was a tendency for the side skirts covering the motion to be gradually dispensed with but the Sarthe system, or probably the local prefecture, seems to have always been quite strict about this.

 

Definitions of tramways have always been "interesting" but in France it was a railway (normally d'Interet Local so a light railway) that ran for more than a third of its length on or directly alongside public roads and was genarally slower but subject to fewer regulations than a light railway running on a "plateforme independant"

Edited August 10, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

231G

 

There was an exploration of the history of tramway legislation in another thread (probably about Belgian Waffle making, or something similarly disconnected from tramways!), and I think the conclusion was that it is exceedingly complicated and hard to understand!

 

Now, for something almost completely irrelevant, but which looks like jolly good fun for an outing: a sleeping car, from a 250 mile long horse tramway in Argentina, which required a three day trip from end-to-end from The Engineer 12/1887.

 

It does say "rural" on the side, and I reckon it must have been!

 

There was a natty inspection car, and, for those for whom 250 miles of travel proved too great an ordeal, a "tranvia de los muertos" (actually, I think this one was used only, locally, as far as Buenos Aries crem, not over the entire, enervating, trip.

 

K

Edited August 10, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Nick Holliday]

Getting back to the UK, just to add to the mix, a couple of tramways that were really railways, and one railway that was really a tramway.

 

The Rye and Camber Tramway, and the Hundred of Manhood and Selsey Tramway, both part of Colonel Stephens' south coast empire, had no roadside trackage and no skirts on their steam locos. Conversely, the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway ran along the road and had skirted locos and Wild West coaches!

[pete_mcfarlane]

Those horse trams are rather nice. It's as if they saw horse tramcars as a straight replacement for stage coaches. 

 

Getting back to these Islands, I've also got a soft spot for the Cork and Muskerry - there are some wonderful photos here: 

 

https://www.doylecollection.com/blog/cork-abandoned-muskerry-railway

 

There was even a section where it and the Cork electric trams ran along the same bit of road. https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/whytes/catalogue-id-srwhy10023/lot-3e9101bd-1f1a-419f-8517-a4a700ce64ed

 

The trams were built to a weird gauge of 2 foot, 11 and a bit inches to allow possible through running with the 3 foot gauge railways. Cork also possessing a broad gauge line unconnected with the rest of the network, and the double tracked 3' gauge Cork, Blackrock and Passage. It's definitely a place to visit in the time machine.

[£1.38]

Just t show what a 'proper' double deck steam tramway carriage should look like

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by £1.38

[Nearholmer]

Yep.

 

Every time I see the beast below in reality, I am amazed that it remained upright when going round the shockingly tight corners that the W&SST had. They used to squeeze half a dozen huge cars into the depot, which is accessed up a tiny alleyway, and is barely bigger than a modest back garden!

 

K

[Nearholmer]

And now, a picture quiz.

 

Who, what, where, and when?

 

('Why?' Would simply beg deep, existentialist questions)

 

K

[pete_mcfarlane]

Does the TTT stand for 'Telford Town Tramway'?

 

The Clergyman with the mad hair looks very much like the Rev. Awdry. Although almost all Clergymen looked like that at one point. 

 

Presumably this is the opening ceremony for the Tramway (which google tells me was in 1980). 

[Nearholmer]

Well done, Pete; correct on all points.

 

The Reverend looks as if he has a terrible cold, doesn't he?

 

It's not really very rural, though, so maybe I shouldn't have put it in here.

 

Oh, the prize?

 

Er, well ........ I know, what about a TTT All Lines Railrover Ticket, valid for any fortnight in February 2017 that you might wish to select?

 

Kevin

[Northroader]

Here's something rural tramways, Midland Railway from a C. Hamilton Ellis painting. Three likes all together.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Well done, Pete; correct on all points.

 

The Reverend looks as if he has a terrible cold, doesn't he?

He does a bit.

 

I haven't been on the Telford tram, but I have been for a ride behind the NG steam tram at the North Ings railway near Sleaford. Well worth a visit. 

[Nearholmer]

Ah, you rat!

 

North Ings was going to be my next photo quiz!

 

Very good-fun set-up, and I was greatly impressed by the steam tram.

 

Kevin

[John_Hughes]

The only time I went to the Mumbles was to go camping, and we asked the chap in charge of the field to point us to a good,flat place to pitch the tent.

 

He indicated an area that was inclined at an angle of about thirty degrees (the rest was at forty-five degrees), and, when we complained, his response was: "Well, it is flat; in a sloping kind of way." (You have to imagine the doleful Welsh accent).

 

Now, I'm sure I've heard this told as joke, but it is true; I know, 'cos I was there.

 

No S&M at the time of the camping trip. Just good clean, outdoor fun.

 

K

 

PS: There was also the Shropshire & Montgomery, of course. Not a tramway, but some incredibly silly rolling stock, and it did terminate in a number of fields in the middle of nowhere (all of which I visited in an old Landrover about ten years ago. Don't bother going: there is nothing there that can't be seen in any field within easy walking distance of home!)

 

But it was flat! It just wasn't level!

 

(And please don't mistake the Swansea accent for anything else you can hear in Wales! That's like those folks who hear a 'Belfast accent you could cut with a knife' and think it's a lilting Irish brogue!)

[Nearholmer]

John

 

I'm rubbish on the local subtleties of accents in Wales, but the chap concerned spoke as if the weight of the world was on his shoulders, and I can't say whether that was because he'd answered the same request, in the same way, ten million times before, or because everyone who lives on the Mumbles feels resigned to a terrible fate, and, if so, what that fate might be.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Ah Swansea, where I misspent my youth (she's doing fine though now, apparently), and the Mumbles, great place for a pub crawl (in the days when I could still actually do a pub crawl).  In contrast, I once went to Cardiff, but it was closed.

[Northroader]

Steam Trams in the Netherlands has been raised, and they did them rather well. Here's a photo I took at the Eurotrack show at Southampton in Feb. 1999. The model is by Mr. F. Saunders of Slough, scale 1:50, gauge 20mm. Okay, the wheels don't go round, although it's mounted on a slowly rotating plinth, and it's a diorama, but I think it's a wonderful piece of railway modelling, marvellously evocative, and something anyone could try. It's called "waiting for the bridge".

.

It's based on a painting by Anton Pieck, an artist who specialised in busy, folksy, Old Dutch scenes. Do a "search" and "images" and you're set up with plenty of inspiration for a model scene.

[Fat Controller]

John

 

I'm rubbish on the local subtleties of accents in Wales, but the chap concerned spoke as if the weight of the world was on his shoulders, and I can't say whether that was because he'd answered the same request, in the same way, ten million times before, or because everyone who lives on the Mumbles feels resigned to a terrible fate, and, if so, what that fate might be.

 

Kevin

I believe the Germans coined the term 'Weltschmerz' ( the 'l' wasn't there originally) after asking a 'jack' what the weather was going to do. 'If you can see the Mumbles from here, it's going to rain. If you can't see it, then it's already started'.

Swansea is so hilly that South Wales Transport used to have buses with special gearing to work some routes, especially those which took the short route to the top of Townhill. A school-friend's father used to claim he drove up in reverse, as first gear wasn't low enough in his Austin 7.

The rugby ground in nearby Neath, known as the Gnoll, had such a hump at the half-way line that it was claimed that you couldn't see the posts from the opposite end.